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Author Topic: Fake "Suzukaze 20"  (Read 12920 times)

Offline Justo Miranda

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Fake "Suzukaze 20"
« on: February 07, 2009, 02:45:13 pm »
Found source

Offline lark

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Re: Fake "Suzukaze 20"
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2009, 06:04:03 am »
Correct Justo,

This 'design' is in the same 'fakeclass' as the Mitsubishi type 'O' push-pull figher
and the Nakajima AT 27 and the T.K.19...
In the late fifties/early sixties, there was a short article about in 'Flying Review'

Offline Deltafan

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« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 08:14:37 am by Deltafan »

Offline lark

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Re: Fake "Suzukaze 20"
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2009, 08:41:38 am »
Flying Review,August 1956. page 9.

...first illustrated in the Japanese magazine Sora,a popular-style
aviation publication.A monthly feature of  this magazine was
'Dreams of New designers' in which readers described aircraft
of their own conception....

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Fake "Suzukaze 20"
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2009, 03:03:37 pm »
The December 25, 1941 issue of "Flight" also showed Omar and it is likely that this "verification" of the design led to it being given credence in recognition manuals until it was shown to be bogus.

I make the argument that the Suzukaze 20 was, in fact, inspired by the aircraft of Nicholas Roland Payen. The parallels are too great to ignore.  ;D

There were actually two Mitsubishi T.K.4 Type 0 aircraft. The initial one was similar to a Bf 110 and this was described in the "Flight" issue. At some point, the plane evolved in the Japanese Aircraft Manual, O.N.I. 249, into the Fokker D.XXIII copy using radials, though the T.K.4 moniker was dropped and it remained simply the Mitsubishi Type 0. :)

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Fake "Suzukaze 20"
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2009, 03:45:28 pm »
That Flight article also mentions use by the Japanese Army of Junkers Ju-86 and Ju-87, Fiat CR-42 and BR-20, as well Koolhoven FK.58s.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1941/1941%20-%203105.html?search=japan

Presumably the Ju-86 refers to the Manshukoku Koku KK airliners (or misidentified G3M Nells). I'm guessing that "FK.58" is an attempt at identifying the Ki-43. But what could the CR-42 ref be?

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Fake "Suzukaze 20"
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2009, 05:09:30 pm »
It was thought that the Japanese were operating the C.R.42 fighter but this sprang from a doctored up photograph found in a recognition manual.

The B.R.20 was definitely legit as the IJA purchased 85 of them and used them as the Army Type I Heavy Bomber during the Sino-Japanese War before phasing them out prior to WW2.

The Junkers Ju 86 usage, and this is a pure guess, could have stemmed from the usage of the aircraft by Manchurian Air Services which was, by 1941, a puppet state of Japan. Perhaps it was felt the Japanese may have impressed them into service.

That Flight article also mentions use by the Japanese Army of Junkers Ju-86 and Ju-87, Fiat CR-42 and BR-20, as well Koolhoven FK.58s.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1941/1941%20-%203105.html?search=japan

Presumably the Ju-86 refers to the Manshukoku Koku KK airliners (or misidentified G3M Nells). I'm guessing that "FK.58" is an attempt at identifying the Ki-43. But what could the CR-42 ref be?

Offline johnmellberg

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Re: Fake "Suzukaze 20"
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2009, 03:26:08 pm »
I make the argument that the Suzukaze 20 was, in fact, inspired by the aircraft of Nicholas Roland Payen. The parallels are too great to ignore.  ;D

There were actually two Mitsubishi T.K.4 Type 0 aircraft. The initial one was similar to a Bf 110 and this was described in the "Flight" issue. At some point, the plane evolved in the Japanese Aircraft Manual, O.N.I. 249, into the Fokker D.XXIII copy using radials, though the T.K.4 moniker was dropped and it remained simply the Mitsubishi Type 0. :)

I agree with Pelzig. It is also noteable that Roland Payen had, in fact, done some design work for the Japanese (see Dannysoar's excellent payen pages).
http://home.att.net/~dannysoar2/Payen2.htm

as well as Modelstories:
http://modelarchives.free.fr/Bestiaire/Payen_P400_P/index.html

and a nice pic:


The PA-400 was, in a way, a more practical rendition of his earlier PA 350CD, which I modelled in 3D and shared in another thread.

The point being, that something like the "Omar" may have been considered..

Offline AF

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« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 06:30:05 am by AF »

Offline hesham

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Re: Fake "Suzukaze 20"
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2009, 10:39:04 am »


  And I think also this aircraft was fake design.

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Fake "Suzukaze 20"
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2009, 12:04:05 pm »
Very much so. This is the S-31 Kurowashi, or Black Eagle. Here are the stats for it:

Type:       Heavy Bomber
Crew:       Five
Powerplant:    Four 24-cylinder, liquid-cooled X-engines, each developing 2,500hp, each pair driving two, metal, 3-bladed contra-rotating propellers
Dimensions
Span:       32.82m/107.7ft
Length:   21.09m/69.2ft
Height:    5.88m/19.3ft
Wing Area:   133.00 sq.m/1,431.6 sq.ft
Weights
Loaded:    17,850kg/39,352lb
Performance
Max speed:   690km/h/429mph
Cruise speed:   589km/h/366mph
Landing speed:   145km/h/90mph
Range:    5,900km/3,666 miles
Ceiling:   15,100m/49,540ft
Fuel Weight:   8,000kg/17,636lb
Armament
Eight 7.7mm machine guns and four 23mm cannons; up to 8,000kg (17,636lb) of bombs

The plane had a novel defensive armament scheme, using remote fired ball turrets in the leading and trailing edge of the wings.

While pretty slick looking, such a plane would never have been practical.

As a side note, the Japanese did have a X-engine for use inline, this being the YE3E [Ha-74 Model 11) ( Ken No.2).





  And I think also this aircraft was fake design.

Offline johnmellberg

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Re: Fake "Suzukaze 20"
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2009, 08:17:08 am »
I certainly didn't mean to imply that there aren't fakes, promoted during the period or in modern times.
I only mean to infer that sometimes there is a grain of truth behind even some of the more far-fetched
ones. My suggestion is that the Suzukaze may have found its inspiration in the fact that Roland Payen
had worked with Mitsubishi..

There are certainly a lot of fake things being promoted, particularly in the area of german 'paper projects'.
I am very skeptical of things like the 'Hannebu' disks and german research into 'zero-point' etc.
Ironically, many otherwise credible people have been seduced by such things.

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Fake "Suzukaze 20"
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2009, 09:38:10 am »
I quite agree with you that the Suzukaze has way too many parallels to Payen's designs to be coincidence.

From time to time, I can't help but think that, since many of these Japanese fantasy designs appeared in Sora magazine, that submissions to the magazine came from military sources as a means of misinformation or perhaps company designers themselves.

For example, the fantasy Nakajima AT27 (code named "Gus") smacks of the Kawasaki Ki-64. It uses a similar engine arrangement, uses a surface evaporation cooling network, and one of the original art pieces for it has the number "64" on the fuselage. That is a lot of coincidence.  ;D

I certainly didn't mean to imply that there aren't fakes, promoted during the period or in modern times.
I only mean to infer that sometimes there is a grain of truth behind even some of the more far-fetched
ones. My suggestion is that the Suzukaze may have found its inspiration in the fact that Roland Payen
had worked with Mitsubishi..

There are certainly a lot of fake things being promoted, particularly in the area of german 'paper projects'.
I am very skeptical of things like the 'Hannebu' disks and german research into 'zero-point' etc.
Ironically, many otherwise credible people have been seduced by such things.

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Fake "Suzukaze 20"
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2009, 08:25:25 pm »
For example, the fantasy Nakajima AT27 (code named "Gus") smacks of the Kawasaki Ki-64. It uses a similar engine arrangement, uses a surface evaporation cooling network, and one of the original art pieces for it has the number "64" on the fuselage. That is a lot of coincidence.  ;D

I had the same reaction.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4848.0.html

Offline blackkite

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Re: Fake "Suzukaze 20"
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2014, 04:46:29 am »
Hi!