Register here

Author Topic: NSSN Virginia-class - current status and future  (Read 71276 times)

Offline F-14D

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1724
  • I really did change my personal text
Re: NSSN Virginia-class - current status and future
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2009, 02:22:34 pm »
Virginia-class Batch 3 / Block IV

According to something I read in the Naval Institute Proceedings, I believe, some years back, Seawolf, and its successor were originally planned to have a sail much like depicted here.  However, according to the article, powers that be thought it would make the boat look too much like a Soviet sub, and there were objections at the high levels.  As a result, the design was changed, and all that remains of the original design is the little fillet at the for end of tghe sails of the Seawolf and Virginia classes.   

Stranger things have happened. 

Offline Triton

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 9687
  • Donald McKelvy
    • Deep Blue to Wild Blue
Re: NSSN Virginia-class - current status and future
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2009, 03:01:52 pm »
Virginia-class Batch 3 / Block IV

According to something I read in the Naval Institute Proceedings, I believe, some years back, Seawolf, and its successor were originally planned to have a sail much like depicted here.  However, according to the article, powers that be thought it would make the boat look too much like a Soviet sub, and there were objections at the high levels.  As a result, the design was changed, and all that remains of the original design is the little fillet at the for end of tghe sails of the Seawolf and Virginia classes.   

Stranger things have happened. 

Interesting. The concept has some resemblance to the Soviet/Russian Bars/Shuka B Type 971 (NATO "Akula") class attack submarine. I wonder what the possibility would be that it would be mistaken for an "Akula" class on the surface?
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/971.htm

Offline Firefly 2

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 461
Re: NSSN Virginia-class - current status and future
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2009, 03:06:27 pm »
It really depends on the training of the sighting crew, me thinks. Chances are that it could happen, and it wouldn't be the first miss-identification by military personnel. It remains a nice design from a purely aesthetic point of view though.

Offline sferrin

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 10896
Re: NSSN Virginia-class - current status and future
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2009, 03:36:11 pm »
Virginia-class Batch 3 / Block IV

According to something I read in the Naval Institute Proceedings, I believe, some years back, Seawolf, and its successor were originally planned to have a sail much like depicted here.  However, according to the article, powers that be thought it would make the boat look too much like a Soviet sub, and there were objections at the high levels.  As a result, the design was changed, and all that remains of the original design is the little fillet at the for end of tghe sails of the Seawolf and Virginia classes.   

Stranger things have happened. 

I'd be happy if they brought the build quality back up above 3rd world standards.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline flateric

  • Deputy Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 8539
Re: NSSN Virginia-class - current status and future
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2009, 03:50:55 pm »
Composite Advanced Sail configurations, studied for Virginia Block IV in late 90s

sources
http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public//PubFullText/RTO/MP/RTO-MP-089///MP-089-33.pdf
http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public//PubFullText/RTO/MP/RTO-MP-089///PowerPoint%20Slides/MP-089-33.pps

Var 1





Var 2











scaled to 1/4 Advanced Sail tests onboard LSV Kokanee in 1999



макет Advanced Sail



Virginia with AS (high-res version)



Virginia command post



another redesigned bow Virginia render

« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 03:52:30 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Aeroengineer1

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 77
Re: NSSN Virginia-class - current status and future
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2009, 07:34:29 pm »
From what I have been able to gather, the "advanced" sail concept is quite difficult.  It creates some very large vorticies off the front that get ingested into the proplusor and create acoustic issues.  The main reason for wanting to go to this concept is to get more room in the sail for other toys such as a faired in launch and storage area for larger uuv's and to move the command center of the boat up higher in the structure.  The fairing that is currently on the sail was originally proposed for the LA class, though it was never implemented (it may have been tested though, I have a factory drawing of it which is authentic).  I would actually be surprised to see this sail get implemented as even the newer Russian boats are moving away from the faired sail.  There are a lot of interesting things that have been proposed for the spiral upgrades of the boat, though I think that most of them will not make it into the final configuration.  Some of these things include the distributed pump jet propulsor, the rim driven electric propulsor, the x stern configuration, the advanced sail, and of course the new bow changes in this latest round.  As far as what I have been able to read, it appears that the rim driven propulsor will eventually get included, then perhaps the sail, then the x tail, and last would be the distributed pump jet (which would get rid of the stern planes all together).

Adam

Offline flateric

  • Deputy Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 8539
Re: NSSN Virginia-class - current status and future
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2009, 11:58:05 pm »
Some of the stuff Adam was talking about + looking even further in the future


















« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 03:41:20 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Firefly 2

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 461
Re: NSSN Virginia-class - current status and future
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2009, 03:20:43 am »
That's wonderfull material! Thank you!

Offline F-14D

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1724
  • I really did change my personal text
Re: NSSN Virginia-class - current status and future
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2009, 10:16:21 am »
It really depends on the training of the sighting crew, me thinks. Chances are that it could happen, and it wouldn't be the first miss-identification by military personnel. It remains a nice design from a purely aesthetic point of view though.

Primary identification would be by sound, of course

Offline TomS

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2801
Re: NSSN Virginia-class - current status and future
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2009, 03:33:15 pm »
I wonder what the possibility would be that it would be mistaken for an "Akula" class on the surface?

I very much doubt that there was any concern of a mistaken identification in combat -- modern subs do not fight on the surface, period. 

The objection that it looks too much like a Soviet design was likely more one of perception -- that it would give the appearance that the US Navy was having to copy a Soviet design concept.  Given that the Soviets sometimes did have an edge in aerodynamics and hydrodynamics, there might be a kernel of truth in that, but the USN would take great pains to avoid making that admission.


Offline Trident

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 777
Re: NSSN Virginia-class - current status and future
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2009, 03:42:19 pm »
A NIH thing, in other words ;)

Offline Firefly 2

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 461
Re: NSSN Virginia-class - current status and future
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2009, 11:32:43 pm »
It really depends on the training of the sighting crew, me thinks. Chances are that it could happen, and it wouldn't be the first miss-identification by military personnel. It remains a nice design from a purely aesthetic point of view though.

Primary identification would be by sound, of course

I do believe the initial premise of the question I responded to was visual identification, but in all other respects you are of course correct.

Offline F-14D

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1724
  • I really did change my personal text
Re: NSSN Virginia-class - current status and future
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2009, 02:14:47 pm »
It really depends on the training of the sighting crew, me thinks. Chances are that it could happen, and it wouldn't be the first miss-identification by military personnel. It remains a nice design from a purely aesthetic point of view though.

Primary identification would be by sound, of course

I do believe the initial premise of the question I responded to was visual identification, but in all other respects you are of course correct.

Except for entering or leaving port or for swim call, in normal ops no self-respecting SSN is ever going to be caught on the surface.   Even then primary ID would still be by sound.

Offline Firefly 2

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 461
Re: NSSN Virginia-class - current status and future
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2009, 02:51:25 pm »
It really depends on the training of the sighting crew, me thinks. Chances are that it could happen, and it wouldn't be the first miss-identification by military personnel. It remains a nice design from a purely aesthetic point of view though.

Primary identification would be by sound, of course

I do believe the initial premise of the question I responded to was visual identification, but in all other respects you are of course correct.

Except for entering or leaving port or for swim call, in normal ops no self-respecting SSN is ever going to be caught on the surface.   Even then primary ID would still be by sound.

Still not denying the truth in your words.


Offline F-14D

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1724
  • I really did change my personal text
Re: NSSN Virginia-class - current status and future
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2009, 03:08:47 pm »
It really depends on the training of the sighting crew, me thinks. Chances are that it could happen, and it wouldn't be the first miss-identification by military personnel. It remains a nice design from a purely aesthetic point of view though.

Primary identification would be by sound, of course

I do believe the initial premise of the question I responded to was visual identification, but in all other respects you are of course correct.

Except for entering or leaving port or for swim call, in normal ops no self-respecting SSN is ever going to be caught on the surface.   Even then primary ID would still be by sound.

Still not denying the truth in your words.



Thanks.  You'd think after all this time, though,  I'd be able to do a quote correctly.