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Author Topic: German EMW. A.9 / A.10  (Read 13666 times)

Offline TsrJoe

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German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« on: January 09, 2009, 03:43:28 am »
DELETED POST (please remove from the thread)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 02:39:16 am by TsrJoe »
...'excuse me mister, is that plane for real'...!!!

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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2009, 05:51:08 am »
Not fully faired. What you're seeing is the chine-like wings of the original A-9 planform. I'd like to know what the source is for that drawing, though... I've seen it before, but I don't know if it's post-war or not.
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Offline Grzesio

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2009, 06:32:45 am »
I've always thought so - but I think there's a Verkleidung leader pointing at this line?

Regards

Grzesio

Offline shaba

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2009, 08:21:44 pm »
just a thought, was there any suggestion of the A.10 proper being developed as a weapon without the A.9 upper stage?
yes I've read that the the A.10 was originally designed to deliver a 4,000lbs warhead to 500 miles iirc.

Offline Michel Van

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2009, 08:18:58 am »
i found this year ago in internet

i think this is real
because it show a 6 x A4 engine with nozzle
proposed by walter Thiel

and it show as propellants,  Salbei and Gasöl

Gasöl = synthetic Gasoline from coal
Salbei = Nitric acid
there were two version for German rocketengine
S-Stoff = 98% Nitric acid and 4% Iron chloride
SV-stoff = 90-98% fuming nitric acid and 2-10% Sulfuric acid.


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Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2009, 09:58:37 am »
From "The Birth of the missile" by Ernst Klee and Otto Merk
George Harrap Ed. 1965

Offline Michel Van

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2009, 11:19:36 am »
at last bigger Picture !

THANKS JUSTO  :D

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Offline Grif

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2009, 09:54:24 am »
The second drawing above may have been the inspiration for this kit:

http://renax.club.fr/sharkit/A9A10/A9A10.htm

Grif

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2009, 10:06:17 am »
i found this year ago in internet

i think this is real
because it show a 6 x A4 engine with nozzle

It's a fairly silly concept. It'd be vastly easier to simply have six separate engines than to try to gang six engines together, and have them exhaust into a common nozzle.

Now, if the six engines were, instead, ganged *around* a common nozzle, that'd form an aerospike, and might be worth doing (but probably not for an ICBM).
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2009, 10:40:05 am »

It's a fairly silly concept. It'd be vastly easier to simply have six separate engines than to try to gang six engines together, and have them exhaust into a common nozzle.

Now, if the six engines were, instead, ganged *around* a common nozzle, that'd form an aerospike, and might be worth doing (but probably not for an ICBM).

your absolute Right !
this was a Idea by walter Thiel
the common nozzle look logical if you use jet vane for Control the rocket flight
but  Thiel cont could not finish his work
he was kilt during bomberraid on Penemunde august 1943


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Offline Grzesio

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2009, 12:52:51 am »
It was not a simple common nozzle for six engines - there was an additional low pressure combustion chamber formed by the main nozzle. Thrust of this powerplant is given as 180 000 t, i.e. some 17 500 t more than six single engines.

Regards

Grzesio
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 12:54:52 am by Grzesio »

Offline agricola64

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2009, 03:09:32 am »

It's a fairly silly concept. It'd be vastly easier to simply have six separate engines than to try to gang six engines together, and have them exhaust into a common nozzle.

Now, if the six engines were, instead, ganged *around* a common nozzle, that'd form an aerospike, and might be worth doing (but probably not for an ICBM).

your absolute Right !
this was a Idea by walter Thiel
the common nozzle look logical if you use jet vane for Control the rocket flight
but  Thiel cont could not finish his work
he was killed during bomberraid on Penemunde august 1943

i once read (and if i can rmember the source i will post it) that the development of the fuel injection system of the A-4 engine was such a pain in the ass that it was decided - to reduce development time - to use the existing a-4 engines as "fuel injectors" / preburners for the much larger engine of the a-9/a-10

possibly even running some of them fuel rich and the other oxydiser rich to get proper combustion in the the main engine

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2009, 09:51:12 am »
Tandem venturi !

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2009, 11:10:44 am »
Tandem venturi !

Almost never a good idea.
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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2009, 11:26:33 am »

i once read (and if i can rmember the source i will post it) that the development of the fuel injection system of the A-4 engine was such a pain in the ass that it was decided - to reduce development time - to use the existing a-4 engines as "fuel injectors" / preburners for the much larger engine of the a-9/a-10


It was not a simple common nozzle for six engines - there was an additional low pressure combustion chamber formed by the main nozzle.

The A-4 (V-2) engine was made by ganging a number of "burner cups" together. The individual cups - which were integrated fuel/oxidizer injectors - were developed individually; once the bugs were worked out and adequate combustion efficiency was established, putting a number of them together in a single change was an easy way to get much higher thrust with less development headache. You can see the cups here:




However, what's shown in the odd A-10 ganged engine diagram is quite different. This very likely would have involved *more* development effort than designing a new engine that used the complete injector faces of A-4 engines as its own "burner cups." Having multiple supersonic throats is a recipe for disaster, as is having a high temperature pressure chamber of such an unusual geometry.

Thrust greater than the sum of it's parts is likely due in part to having a higher expansion ratio than for the original A-4 engine.
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Offline Barrington Bond

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2010, 02:19:30 pm »
From:

Report Of The General Board, United States Forces, European Theater.
V-2 Rocket Attacks and Defense.
Uncertain of date but stamped Library Apr 3 1952 Army War College. Also marked Antiaircraft Artillery Section Study Number 42.

J. The A-9 was similar in appearance and results to the A-4b, but was of different internal construction. It was proposed to develop and manufacture the A-9 in place of the A-4. However, the conversion would have been difficult, and the A-4b, which could be produced much more quickly, was being developed as a temporary substitute. The plan was to shoot the missile vertically into the air and then incline it toward the target. Its design included wings to enable it to glide until over the target, where it would go into a vertical dive. It was expected to travel about 375 miles (its maximum range) in 17 minutes. A proposal was made to launch it from a catapult to increase its range. It was also proposed to install a pressurized cabin, and to use a human pilot. The pilot would drop the warhead on the target, and then return to his base. A retractable landing gear would be used in the landing. Landing speeds as low as 100 miles per hour were inticipated.

K. The A-10 was never built, but plans for its production were completed. It was to be used as a take-off motor for the A-9, supplying a 200-ton thrust for this purpose. When the A-9 attained a velocity of approximately 1,500 miles per hour, its own motor would begin to function, and the A-10 would be jettisoned. It was expected that the A-9 would then attain a velocity of about 3,360 miles per hour and a range of about 3,500 miles.It was also proposed to use a human pilot in this combination.

Regards Barry

"It hasn't squeaked in a week!"

Offline Jemiba

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2010, 06:40:34 am »
"indeed i had doubted them myself til now!"

There's no need to doubt, that there were such ideas. But there still is a difference
between having an idea and being able to realise it. "Report Of The General Board,
United States Forces, European Theater", that sounds very much like results from
interviews and interrogations, to my opinion not the most reliable source. To make a
sketch of a piloted V2 is one thing, it not even would have been hard, to make detailed
drawings, but actually building this thing, launching it and bringing it back with its pilot
alive would have been a whole new ball game !
Reading about such themes, I always have the strong feeling, that many still believe, things
like the piloted V2, A9/A10 or maybe supersonic jets were just around the corner in 1945.
A healthy lot of fundamental research would have been needed, and if you look to post-war times,
when comparable projects actually were realised, you can get a feeling of the needed time-
frame. From the very beginning of the war, the german industry simply wasn't able to develop
such things, that means to bring such ideas to realisation in a reasonable time. The capacities
for engineering and research already were already overstressed for bringing the more conventional
weapons to the front.
One of the main reasons for the defeat of Germany was that its economy in relation to that of
the US was like a middle sized workshop compared to factory. The craftsmen in that workshop
may have many ideas, when drinking a beer in the pub at the end of the work day. But when they
try to realise them, they may get whipping !


 
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Barrington Bond

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2010, 10:00:21 am »
I'm not saying that I believe what was in this particular report as I think it was compiled from others. What I found intriguing was the mention of the catapult ;)

Regards,
Barry
"It hasn't squeaked in a week!"

Offline archipeppe

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2010, 11:39:42 am »
My personal contribution about the topic.

Offline airrocket

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2010, 06:59:15 pm »
archipeppe...I like very much, the top rendering seems to embody the colors and hues of the era.
Vis Viva

Offline agricola64

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2010, 12:07:55 am »
a question to archipepe drawings ---

i always understood the the engine of the A10 to consist of a number of A4 engines (as "preburners" / injectors - probably running overly lean and fat alternately) exhausting into a mixing / main combustion chamber ..

if that understanding is correct, i believe the size of the "preburners" of the A10 engine is wrong when compared with the A4 engine of the A9 ..


Offline archipeppe

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2010, 12:35:13 am »
a question to archipepe drawings ---

i always understood the the engine of the A10 to consist of a number of A4 engines (as "preburners" / injectors - probably running overly lean and fat alternately) exhausting into a mixing / main combustion chamber ..

if that understanding is correct, i believe the size of the "preburners" of the A10 engine is wrong when compared with the A4 engine of the A9 ..



As far I know, this was the initial intention of the German designers (Walter Thiele before his death).
But the design changed after resulting in a single combustion chamber as represented.
Taking into account that all the drawings I saw depicted the engine in that way.

If someone has more infos about that will be very welcomed.

Offline Catch-22

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Offline hesham

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Re: German EMW. A.9 / A.10
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2015, 05:23:00 am »
Hi,


here is a drawings to EMW A.9,A.10 and A.4.


Aerei Nella Storia

Offline TsrJoe

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...'excuse me mister, is that plane for real'...!!!

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