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Author Topic: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka  (Read 37953 times)

Offline Michel Van

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Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« on: December 08, 2008, 11:32:30 am »
that are interesting Aircrafts
 
mostly called the Japanese version of the Me-262

because there Origin are from Germany in some form
the Nippon-German Technical Exchange Agreement from 1944
germans ship to Japan  with U-Boats Parts and Plans of Me 163, Me 262, V-1 & V-2 and other Technology
but not all U-Boats made it to Japan

so the Nakajima Aircraft Company end up with some incomplete plans of Me-262

nice this legend on the Engine:
Ishikawajima had to build the turbojet engines, but had only amateur picture of a the BMW 003 axial-flow turbojet
on THAT Ishikawajima build the Ne-230 & Ne-130 turbojet !

http://j-aircraft.org/xplanes/hikoki_files/kikka.html
http://j-aircraft.org/xplanes/hikoki_files/ki201.html
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 06:49:16 am by Stargazer2006 »
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Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2008, 12:38:09 pm »
Although the Kikka bore a resemblance to the Me 262, it was not a version of the German jet. Also, the J9Y designation has never been verified from wartime Japanese documents and its use by post-war historians is in error despite the logical application of the designation for the interceptor version of the Kikka.

The Ki-201 was, however, the definitive Japanese version of the Me 262, albeit adapted to suit Japanese production capability.

As for the turbojet engine, three manufacturers were provided with access to the BMW 003A Sturm information (which did consist of a photocopy of the engine and some general design data) and told to produce their own versions of the BMW engine. The Ne-20 (as used in the Kikka) was developed by Kugisho while the Ne-130 was to be done by Ishikawajima-Shibaura, the Ne-230 by Nakajima, and the Ne-330 by Mitsubishi.

Just some info. :)

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2008, 12:44:41 pm »
As far as I have been able to find out, the V-2 data was never shared with the Japanese. Two wartime OSS reports said it had been but the sources were never verified and the reports were not given much credence.

However, it was said that U-864 contained plans for the V-2. but it was sunk in February 1945. Because of the 40 tons of mercury cargo, the Norwegian government has given approval to either salvage the sub or cap it. If salvaged, it would be raised. If would be interesting to see what other cargo survived as reports say Me 163 and Me 262 parts were onboard. Perhaps, but not likely, blueprints and other technical data might still remain and could verify what was sent.

As for the V-1 (Fi 103), more than enough information on that reached Japan. The Kawanishi Baika is one such fruit from that data.


because there Origin are from Germany in some form
the Nippon-German Technical Exchange Agreement from 1944
germans ship to Japan  with U-Boats Parts and Plans of Me 163, Me 262, V-1 & V-2 and other Technology
but not all U-Boats made it to Japan


Offline Michel Van

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2008, 01:23:46 pm »
about the Nippon-German Technical Exchange Agreement from 1944
over a year Japanese, German and 2 Italian U-Boats try to transport good to Japan
non of Japanese I-class Sub made it, some of German made to Japan

Wat were the good ?

Plans and Parts of Aircrafts, Rockets and Weapons
V-1, Me 163 and M262 100% sure they send to japan
V-2 is  historical not sure can be translation or misspelling error in Japanese or US documents

intresting stuff is Uranium ore, they it needed for Japanese Nuclear Bomb program
the rest were shipment of Gold, platin etc.

in exchance for Öl, rubber and other stuff the Germans needed
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Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2008, 03:26:50 pm »
Kikka , Karyu & Me 262 comparative drawings

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2008, 03:30:05 pm »
BMW 003 , Jumo 004 B and Ne 20 comparative drawings

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2008, 03:59:11 am »
Hi! NE-20 engine picture.
Ishikawajiha Harima Heavy Industries (IHI) recently changed it's name to IHI Corporation.
Tachikawa was a one division Ishiawajima.

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2008, 04:01:24 am »
Hi! NE-20 engine picture(No.2).

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2008, 04:03:02 am »
Hi! NE-20 last picture. Enjoy.

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2008, 04:34:50 am »
I forget to tell you that my high school mathematics teacher was a member of NE-20 developing team. He always told us that he could sleep beside operating NE-20 engine.
He might have very tired in that days because of very hard work.

Offline tom!

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2008, 04:53:07 am »
Hi.

Following the IJN aircraft designation system the Nakajima Special Attacker "Kikka" would have had the designation MXN(number) (most likely MXN1).

J was used for land-based fighters, MX for special purpose aircraft. N stands for the developer Nakajima, Y for Yokosuka (1st IJN Air Technical Arsenal).

So in my opinion "J9Y" is completely wrong. The "Kikka" was not intended as fighter and it was not developed by the 1st IJN Air Technical Arsenal in Yokosuka.

Yours

tom!  ;)

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2008, 05:51:55 am »
Kikka , Karyu & Me 262 comparative drawings

Hi! NE-20 engine picture.
Ishikawajiha Harima Heavy Industries (IHI) recently changed it's name to IHI Corporation.
Tachikawa was a one division Ishiawajima.

thanks for Picture

interesting the Nakajima Aircraft are smaller as Me 262 !
this and the wings foldable, the Jets can be hidden easy in caves and tunnels.

Wat a irony Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries Co., Ltd. build since 1945  allot Jet engine in Licensed production

So in my opinion "J9Y" is completely wrong. The "Kikka" was not intended as fighter and it was not developed by the 1st IJN Air Technical Arsenal in Yokosuka.

oh no !
"J9Y" is completely right, the problem was at the Imperial Japanese Navy !
first planed as fast attack bomber.
then change to a fighter, for the defence of the home islands
in the end, it was a "special attacker" aka kamikaze aircraft.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 06:00:45 am by Michel Van »
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Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2008, 06:43:24 am »
Actually, Yokosuka (Kugisho) was very much involved with the Kikka project. Kugisho developed the Ne-20 for the Kikka and it was Kugisho that was giving Nakajima the orders for when to have the mock-up ready and it was Kugisho that studied and evaluated the design. Finally, the wings, center and aft fuselage sections, and empennage for the prototype Kikka were built by Kugisho.

Therefore, the J9Y designation for the proposed interceptor version is, as mentioned, logical.

Just my two cents.



Hi.

Following the IJN aircraft designation system the Nakajima Special Attacker "Kikka" would have had the designation MXN(number) (most likely MXN1).

J was used for land-based fighters, MX for special purpose aircraft. N stands for the developer Nakajima, Y for Yokosuka (1st IJN Air Technical Arsenal).

So in my opinion "J9Y" is completely wrong. The "Kikka" was not intended as fighter and it was not developed by the 1st IJN Air Technical Arsenal in Yokosuka.

Yours

tom!  ;)

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2008, 12:08:00 pm »
Speaking of the Nakajima Kikka, I've read that, on August 1, 1945, the 724 Kokutai was formed and was to fly the Nakajima Kikka. Their base was to be in the Tateyama region on the Miuro peninsula along Tokyo Bay, to conduct shimpu missions against the expected Allied invasion fleet.

I've been unable to verify this information and was hoping someone here might be able to verify or deny this unit's existence.

Cheers,

Ed

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2008, 06:56:23 pm »
Hi Pelzig! Your information is true. 724 flying corps formed in 1945/7/1 in Yokosuka base(miura peninsula) and removed to Misawa base Aomori prefecture(north end of Japan island apart 1 hour from Tokyo by MD90.) in 1945/7/15. Begin training from 1945/8/1 by 99type carrier base attacker! And planned to remove Miura peninsula to form KAMIKAZE(shinpu) flying corps by 16 Kikkas in 1945/11. They did not received Kikka till the end of the war.
Kikka made 12 minutes maiden flight in 1945/8/6 in Yokosuka base. Second flight was made in 1945/8/11 with two 400kg thrust JATO,failed and destroyed.
When end of the war,No2-No5 Kikka were completed without undercarriage and equipments.
No6-No7 two seats training versions were under construction.
No8-No15 were completed without engines.
Yokosuka base was located in root of Miura peninsula(west side of Tokyo bay) and Tateyama is located in Boso peninsula(east side of Tokyo bay).
Source:Naniwa Party News No94 March 2007.

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2008, 09:43:12 am »
Thank you! I appreciate the verification.  ;D

Offline Vietcong

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2010, 06:59:16 pm »
Or the Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu project

Online AeroFranz

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2010, 02:23:34 pm »
I recently saw two Kikka airframes at the Smithsonian Garber facility. The curator mentioned that one of the airframes, following aborted takeoff, was fished out of the Tokyo bay. It was later fitted with curious fairings over where the engines should be (see picture), but he could not tell me what the fairings where for.

Does anyone know? The only thing I can think of is flying qualities tests in powerless flight while towed behind another aircraft.

 ???
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline iverson

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2010, 06:07:26 pm »
I saw the same Kikka during a visit to Garber some years back. Even at a distance, in a darkish, crowded hangar, the sheet metal work looked much too crude to serve any aerodynamic purpose. My thought was that someone tried to replace or hide missing components prior to some postwar display--the same way people painted swastikas on everything.

Online AeroFranz

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2010, 08:38:37 pm »
That's a possibility, and while I don't rule that out, my recollection is that the rear of the fairings ends in a streamlined shape. If you were trying to make something look like a turbojet, you'd leave a gaping hole at the rear.
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline iverson

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2010, 09:06:19 pm »
My thinking was that whoever did the work had never seen a turbojet. They just had big empty tubes and tried to make them presentable--of course, it is just speculation on my part.

I remember the front of the nacelles as being covered by rough, irregularly shaped cones with small openings at the tip--a shape hard to reconcile with a serious attempt at fairing, especially if the rear of the nacelles are, as you say, closed. But it's been years and it was pretty dim in the hanger, so I could easily be wrong.

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2010, 07:15:57 am »
I know what you're talking about, regarding the lighting of that place. interesting bit you mentioned about front fairings. I can only hope some report or picture will be found in the archives that can clarify this.
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline windswords

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2010, 03:22:13 pm »
Here is everything I have on the Kikka and Ki-201:

Frank

Offline windswords

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2010, 03:25:21 pm »
Part 2...
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 03:26:58 pm by windswords »
Frank

Offline windswords

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2010, 03:30:16 pm »
Part 3...
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 03:33:07 pm by windswords »
Frank

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2010, 05:21:16 pm »
Hi!
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/KIKKA/KARYU.html#anchor221395
Nakajima Karyu(火龍:Fire dragon, Ki-201)'s specification (Almost same as Me262)
Wing span : 13.7m, Overall length : 11.5m, Height : 4.05m, Empty weight : 4,465kg,
MTOW : 6,969kg, Engine : Ne130(890kg) or Ne230(885kg)×2, Maximum  speed : 812km/h,
Range : 980km, Armament : 30mm cannon×2, 20mm cannon×2, Bomb : 800kg×1, Crew : 1.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 06:58:06 pm by blackkite »

Offline gerhard

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2010, 11:07:42 pm »
Hi

We also know that a number of 2 seater variants of the Kikka were planned and a few Kikka-K variants were already constructed. I wonder if the Ki-201 would have had a two seater variant for training or reconnaissance purposes similar to the Me-262B.

Cheers

Offline gerhard

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2010, 10:46:40 pm »
Hi Guys

My idea if what the Kikka-K would look like.

Cheers
Gerhard

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2010, 03:16:44 am »
Is it just me, or do several of those Kikka drawings look like made just by
modifying a Me 262 drawing, especially with regards to the fuselage cross
section ?   ;)
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2010, 06:43:36 am »
The images which look like the Me 262 are renditions of the Ki-201, which was to be the definitive Japanese version of the German jet.


Is it just me, or do several of those Kikka drawings look like made just by
modifying a Me 262 drawing, especially with regards to the fuselage cross
section ?   ;)

Offline T-50

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2010, 02:27:43 pm »
There was also a interceptor version in development of the kikka,with I believe a radar system.
 

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2010, 10:19:05 pm »
Yes there were plans for Kikka two seats trainer version, two seats fighter bomber version and single seat interceptor version for B-29.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/KIKKA/KIKKA.html
http://www.b-b.ne.jp/kaigun/kikka/kikka.html
http://www.ms-plus.com/search.asp?id=6191
http://ss-bass.oops.jp/Air.kikka.html
Source:Japanese internet site
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 04:37:14 am by blackkite »

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2010, 04:08:45 am »
None of my sources point to the Kikka as being equipped with radar, despite a number of interceptor variants. It was the Ki-201 that was to have the Ta-Ki 15 airborne intercept radar, which, in conjunction with the ground based Ta-Chi 13 radar, the Ki-201 could be directed to targets.

There was also a interceptor version in development of the kikka,with I believe a radar system.
 

Offline Tzoli

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2013, 02:47:29 am »
I give too a coloured photo (done by me) for this thread.

From:
http://tzoli.deviantart.com/art/Preparing-for-the-first-and-last-Takeoff-353467883

Original:
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/041/7/1/preparing_for_the_first_and_last_takeoff_by_tzoli-d5ug1kb.png

But question why does the Kikka still designated J9Y1 While it should be J9K1! Yokusuka only designed one such plane the R2Y2 Keiun-KaiKeiun-Kai but that not finished!
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 02:50:58 am by Tzoli »

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2013, 04:51:48 am »

The Kikka (or, more accurately, Kitsuka) never received a designation. The whole J9Y/J9K/J8N is completely made up post-war.


But question why does the Kikka still designated J9Y1 While it should be J9K1! Yokusuka only designed one such plane the R2Y2 Keiun-KaiKeiun-Kai but that not finished!

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2013, 05:05:00 am »
I give too a coloured photo (done by me) for this thread.

From:
http://tzoli.deviantart.com/art/Preparing-for-the-first-and-last-Takeoff-353467883

Original:
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/041/7/1/preparing_for_the_first_and_last_takeoff_by_tzoli-d5ug1kb.png

But question why does the Kikka still designated J9Y1 While it should be J9K1! Yokusuka only designed one such plane the R2Y2 Keiun-KaiKeiun-Kai but that not finished!
Many thanks. :)

Offline TsrJoe

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2013, 04:34:31 pm »
hmm, just musing looking at the black and white pics, what colour undersurfaces, im thinking its (should be) 'orange' ? but iv seen artworks in 'grey' and 'natural metal' too ... any thoughts
 
cheers, Joe
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Offline Jemiba

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2013, 09:53:56 pm »
Couldn't even find a photo proving those yellow leading edges, so often shown on models or CGIs.
An orange underside would make sense for a prototype, but just from a b/w-photo it will be impossible
to prove. What were the regulations for the paintwork of prototypes ? And were they actually applied
during this time, or generally dispensed with, due to lack of time and materials ? If other prototypes
still got it, then you could assume with about 60 % probabiliy, that it was done here, too, I think.   ;)
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Tzoli

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2013, 01:12:31 am »
I've used this model photo as a basis to colour the photo:


But what I noticed on the photo is the lack of the nose landing gear's hatch door! Also the colour difference between the top and bottom of the plane suggest a colour pattern like the model had.

So it's not possible it was painted enteirely in orange like here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=100132;topic=5813.15;last_msg=176777

Of course there is this paint scheme which looks good too as the bottom of the plane had lighter colours than the top:


I will show you 2 differently coloured photos of the original

Offline Tzoli

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2013, 01:38:23 am »
Green-Yellow Paint Scheme:



Orange-Light Orange Paint Scheme:




And sorry for the big sizes I do not know how to resize them IN the forum
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 01:43:53 am by Tzoli »

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2013, 03:05:13 am »
For the upper sides, I would stay with green as camouflage. Generally, with the exception of "dark earth",
a similar paint scheme to the Gloster E.28/39 (from http://www.planesandchoppers.com/picture/number4886.asp )
Interesting observation, that the nose wheel well door is missing. Perhaps due to lack of thrust of the (prototype)
engines ? Zje P.1127 made its first flight in a similar guise for that reason.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2013, 04:30:10 am »
Hi! Kikka three initial plans.
Source : Final decisive weapon(最終決戦兵器), Kojin-sha, ISBN4-7698-0973-5, 4/14/2001
You can purchase this book by amazon.
And youtube.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 04:43:45 am by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2013, 04:47:43 am »
Next movie. Enjoy!

Offline T-50

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2013, 01:28:12 pm »
Hi Blackkite san
youve did it again nice drawnings! especially the first and the second one!
Is the twin tailboom version also a Nakajima design or is it from a other conpany?
and the Kikka version with its engines against the fuselage,looks better than the builded version I must say.
were this real projects? if so the japanese having more projected jet aircraft and the Us and Britain were not happy with them!
All respects for the japanese engineers!!
I also red in a book they was a version of the Kikka with two seats and a radar version for night combat against the B-29s
best regards
T-50

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2013, 03:36:23 pm »
Hi T-50 san.
All three desgins were of course Nakajima's plan. Nakajima's engineers thought that No.2 plan was the best one same as your opinion, but hard to realize at the day. So No.3 plan was selected as a final Kikka shape.
Next artistic impressions were planned high altitude fighter, trainer and high speed reconnaissance version of Kikka. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 04:09:52 pm by blackkite »

Offline T-50

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2013, 01:40:14 pm »
wow! nice drawnings Blackkite san! Japan was further developed in Jet aircraft than most people know(what is a shame but thats a other topic!) They were further than even the US! while they had the complete plans of the Nene engine.
My respect goes to the japanese technicians becouse they build a working engine from a pair of photos from Germany,and they most solve many problems without German tecnical aid.But they did it!!
best regards
T-50

Offline sienar

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2013, 10:04:53 pm »
wow! nice drawnings Blackkite san! Japan was further developed in Jet aircraft than most people know(what is a shame but thats a other topic!) They were further than even the US! while they had the complete plans of the Nene engine.
My respect goes to the japanese technicians becouse they build a working engine from a pair of photos from Germany,and they most solve many problems without German tecnical aid.But they did it!!
best regards
T-50



What is making you say something like this?

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2013, 11:19:02 pm »
Hi Japanese jet engines which were under development at the end period of W.W.2
Ne20(TR12,static thrust 320kg), Ne20(static thrust 475kg), Ne130(static thrust 885kg) and Ne330(static thrust 1320kg)

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2013, 11:25:03 pm »
And prototype Ne201 turboprop engine.
1870shp+600kg thrust
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 12:35:21 am by blackkite »

Offline Tzoli

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2013, 01:04:03 am »
Is that a Turbopropeller Engine??? Looks more like a regular Jet Engine to me!

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2013, 02:57:00 am »
Hi! Alison T-56.
I think that the Ne201 had the same shape.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 03:48:38 am by blackkite »

Offline Tzoli

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2013, 03:37:47 am »
The Allison do have similarities with the First Turboprop but that Japanese are not in my opinion!

The Jendrassik CS-1



Offline blackkite

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« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 02:02:22 pm by blackkite »

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2013, 03:56:06 am »
Blackite, may I just ask; what is the source of the jet engine pictures?

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2013, 04:09:43 am »
Source : Final decisive weapon(最終決戦兵器), Kojin-sha, ISBN4-7698-0973-5, 4/14/2001
You can get this book by copy and paste "最終決戦兵器" or "ISBN4-7698-0973-5" in Amazon's search box. ;)
Surprisingly this book also described Japanese Atomic bomb development project in Tokyo and Kyoto(one  member was Hideki Yukawa, predictor of pai meson, who got Nobel prise),and guided weapons(missiles).
Please take care that this book also include many after war works. ;D


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hideki_Yukawa


Also described radio weapon by Shinichiro Tomonaga, who got Nobel prise by super many time theory(very precise electro magnetic interaction theory) 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin-Itiro_Tomonaga
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 02:07:09 pm by blackkite »

Offline hesham

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2013, 04:59:32 am »
Hi! Kikka three initial plans.
Source : Final decisive weapon(最終決戦兵器), Kojin-sha, ISBN4-7698-0973-5, 4/14/2001
You can purchase this book by amazon.
And youtube.



Great projects my dear Blackkite.

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2013, 03:38:57 pm »
More info on the NE-20 and Japanese jet engine development here: http://www.minijets.org/index.php?id=ne20&L=3&cHash=eec8acf0b9
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 05:59:15 am by windswords »
Frank

Offline sienar

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2013, 08:45:29 pm »
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 09:26:53 pm by sienar »

Offline Sundog

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2013, 09:31:36 pm »
wow! nice drawnings Blackkite san! Japan was further developed in Jet aircraft than most people know(what is a shame but thats a other topic!) They were further than even the US! while they had the complete plans of the Nene engine.
My respect goes to the japanese technicians becouse they build a working engine from a pair of photos from Germany,and they most solve many problems without German tecnical aid.But they did it!!
best regards
T-50

I don't see how you can say they were further advanced than the U.S. in jet technology when the U.S. had four jet fighters, YP-80A's in Europe for operational testing by January of 1945. An aircraft that was superior to the Me-262 except in a dive, where the Me-262 had the advantage and the Kikka was based off of the Me-262.

It reminds me of all of the Luft'46 arguments, where most forget that many of the U.S.'46 designs didn't remain as blue prints, but were actually built and flown, some entering production. I'm specifically referring to the F-82, the only successful "zwilling" fighter I'm aware of and all of Northrop's flying wings, which, while not successes, were much closer to production than any other flying wing technology in the world at the time. There was also the XP-54, XP-56, and a bunch of other designs (Torpedo bombers, etc.) that were built and flown and proved to be nowhere near what was proposed in terms of performance. Partly due to being bad designs and partly due to poor engine performance. I think many of these "foreign" designs from Japan and Germany would have been the same. A few probably would have worked, but a majority of them wouldn't have been anywhere near as good as they appeared on paper.

The one fighter where I do give the Japanese credit for advanced design is the J7W1. It seems they may have been able to get the first modern canard fighter design to work, but I can't say there were enough flight tests to prove it. It did seem like it would have been more successful than the XP-55. Though the other canard that seemed to show promise, had the bugs been worked out, was Italy's Ambrosini S.S.4

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2013, 09:39:44 pm »
Thanks to all for rare, good and excellent information.

Offline sienar

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2013, 10:04:07 pm »
Chart from the US bombing survey showing where the Kikka sub assemblies were planned to manufactured and assembled by kyushu.


There is also a photo that is new to me. I'd love to see a higher resolution image if anyone has it.

A series of drawings of a proposed night fighter version, no idea of the accuracy on this.


And a link to details on the instrumentation of the Kikka: http://gunsight.jp/c/english/Kikka-e-3D.htm


Also, what is the general consensus on the most accurate 3-views and plans of the Kikka? Some of the drawings show discrepancies that are a bit more then minor.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 10:59:06 pm by sienar »

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #61 on: March 10, 2013, 12:11:34 am »
A couple of plates I did some years back...
P :D
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #62 on: March 10, 2013, 04:20:36 am »
Excellent!!
Please enjoy another 3-side view and some pictures.
Flitzer san and T-50 san how about challenge Kawanishi TB 3 side view and pictures! ;) 
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 04:17:05 am by blackkite »

Offline T-50

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #63 on: March 10, 2013, 12:49:53 pm »
Hi Sienar good work!!! beatiful pics!

Offline T-50

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #64 on: March 10, 2013, 12:53:08 pm »
Hi Blacckite san this Ne201 has a very modern aperiance to me! also their experimental jet engine looks very modern.
greets
T-50
And prototype Ne201 turboprop engine.
1870shp+600kg thrust

Offline Johnbr

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #65 on: March 10, 2013, 03:16:12 pm »

Offline sienar

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #66 on: March 10, 2013, 08:24:49 pm »
part 1

Offline sienar

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #67 on: March 10, 2013, 08:27:04 pm »
2

Offline sienar

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #68 on: March 10, 2013, 08:29:13 pm »
3

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #69 on: March 11, 2013, 05:14:07 am »
Thanks. Amazing!!! :o
Kantosha's Aireview magazine special edition, WWⅡ FIGHTERS,DESIGN WITH PRECISION[2] has very precise and detailed Kikka 3-side view by Minoru Mtsuba.   
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 05:39:58 am by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 04:46:21 pm by blackkite »

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #71 on: March 12, 2013, 05:52:44 pm »
More Karyu:

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #72 on: March 12, 2013, 06:30:04 pm »
Karyu factory drawing in instruction manual and Me262.
I feel Karyu's canopy was rather small compared with Me262.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 09:55:51 pm by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #73 on: March 12, 2013, 07:23:01 pm »
Hi! Karyu picture.

In September 1944, the IJA planned to order Kawasaki to manufacture nationalized Me262A.
Later this plan was changed, the IJA ordered Nakajima to develop twin jet engine fighter bomber based on Me262A as Ki-201 in October to December in 1944. 80 or 120 Ki-201 were planned to manufacture from summer of 1945 to March 1946, used as the interceptor and the ship attack aircraft. Almost design drawings were completed in June 1945. Full scale mock up inspection by the IJA was planned in April 1945, No.1 prototype was planned to complete in March 1946 at the end of the war. Karyu was a joint experimental program between the IJA and the IJN same as Ki-200 Shusui.  There was a straight wing Karyu plan at the beginning of the design. Finally Karyu had a Me262 type sweep back wing.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:46:22 pm by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #74 on: March 13, 2013, 03:52:29 am »
Hi! RC Kikka

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #75 on: March 15, 2013, 05:28:19 am »
According to Japanese wikipedia,
There were three initial proposals for Kikka.
The first proposal's engines were located upper and lower side of the fuselage, tail stabilizers were supported by twin booms.
The second proposal's engines were located each side of the fuselage.
The third proposal's engines were suspended under the wings like Me262.
Although the 2nd proposal was the most progressed shape, the 3rd proposal was adopted as a result of considering the small output of Ne20, and simplification at a manufacture process.
It is said that there was also a problem of a technical side.

So Kikka was a Nakajima's design considering early realization. Karyu was a almost dead cory of Me262. Someone confirmed the name of J9N or J9Y for Kikka by Japanese official documents?

Japanese wikipedia says that Kikka did not have such a name.   
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 03:42:20 pm by blackkite »

Offline windswords

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #76 on: March 16, 2013, 05:34:53 am »
I think that it has been stated by Hiloki and others that the designation J9Y was not ever given to the Kikka. The middle proposal with the two engines close to the fuselage is similar to the American Bell p-59 Airacomet.
Frank

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #77 on: March 16, 2013, 03:49:43 pm »
I think that it has been stated by Hiloki and others that the designation J9Y was not ever given to the Kikka. The middle proposal with the two engines close to the fuselage is similar to the American Bell p-59 Airacomet.
Yes I think so,too. Also air intake shape was similar to P-80. America's level was very high.
Soviet fighter did not realize side air intake before Mig-23, too.

Offline redstar72

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #78 on: March 17, 2013, 12:35:07 am »
Soviet fighter did not realize side air intake before Mig-23, too.

??

Lavochkin La-VRD (project), 1944

Lavochkin La-200B, 1952

Mikoyan "SN", 1953

Lavochkin La-250 Anakonda, 1956

Sukhoi P-1, 1957

Sukhoi T-49, 1960

Tupolev Tu-128, 1961

Sukhoi Su-15 (T-58), 1962
Best regards,
Alexander

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #79 on: March 17, 2013, 04:03:25 am »
You are absolutely right.
Terribly sorry for my very poor knowledge. :'(
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 04:06:15 am by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #80 on: March 18, 2013, 03:45:01 am »
Hi! Kikka front, side and plan view.
Source : Kantosha's Aireview magazine special edition,WWⅡ FIGHTERS,DESIGN WITH PRECISION[2] by great Minoru Matsuba.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 04:48:22 am by blackkite »

Offline hesham

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #81 on: November 28, 2013, 04:41:10 am »
Hi,


anther 3-view to Ki-201 Karyu.

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #82 on: November 28, 2013, 05:03:00 am »
Hi Kikka in NASM!
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 05:05:46 am by blackkite »

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #83 on: November 28, 2013, 05:08:57 am »
Wow! Is it there for restoration only and then to be handed over to Japan?

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #84 on: November 28, 2013, 05:32:27 am »
...Is it there for restoration only and then to be handed over to Japan?

From what can be found in Aeroplane Monthly and several sites (e.g
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/15/1246155/-Kikka-Japan-s-WW2-Jet-Fighter# or
http://www.warbirdradio.com/2011/03/nakajima-kikka-moves-to-new-smithsonian-restoration-center/ ),
it seems to be a project undertaken by the NASM alone, there's no mention of other parties
financially involved. So I think, it's not very probably to be given away after completion.
Even the Do 335 was only loaned by the NASM to the Deutsches Museum München for restoration (!)
and was later returned.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #85 on: November 28, 2013, 06:23:36 am »
Thanks Jens! :D

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #86 on: December 01, 2013, 05:50:57 am »
About time they start restoring this historic aircraft of Japanese aviation.

Online AeroFranz

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #87 on: December 01, 2013, 11:17:52 am »
The NASM has a backlog of tremendously important aircraft to restore. The order in which the restorations happen are sometimes dictated by unfortunate (but understandable) circumstances. Like for example, the next aircraft to come out of the restoration hangar is going to be a Helldiver, the airplane flown in WWII by the biggest donor who made possible the building of the restoration hangar. Coincidence?


on the plus side, some of the curators have started taking apart some of the panels on the fuselage of the Ho-IX/Go-229, in preparation to a move from storage at the Garber facility to the restoration hangar at Udvar-Hazy- so maybe we will see that aircraft on the waitlist in the near future.
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2013, 04:25:00 am »
What I may not understand is why NASM wouldn't farm out restoration of the Kitsuka to Japan. Given the historical importance of the Kitsuka to Japanese aviation history, I bet they would have no problems finding a Japanese company or group to restore it and cutting a deal for display before returning it to the U.S. I mean, look what the replica Me 262 guys did. They went to the U.S. Navy and said, hey, we want to build replicas and would like to use your Me 262B-1a as the template in exchange for completely restoring it before handing it back over. The USN didn't have any qualms over that deal.

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #89 on: December 04, 2013, 04:48:52 am »
What I may not understand is why NASM wouldn't farm out restoration of the Kitsuka to Japan.

Indeed, could have been a cheaper solution and worked well for the already mentioned Do 335. But maybe
political provisions have changed ("not restorated here").
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline windswords

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2013, 05:34:11 am »
If I had Bill Gates's money I would pay for the restoration of both the HO-229 and J7W1 Shinden. Then I would take them to Germany and Japan for a few months to display them before returning them to the US. Someday when both of these are restored I will visit the Air & Space museum again. If the Kikka is also on display that will be a great bonus!
Frank

Offline ninjrk

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #91 on: December 04, 2013, 10:18:20 am »
I wonder if it has to do with NASM's very exacting specifications when it comes to restoration.  I was volunteering at the kalamazoo Air Zoo when they got the XP-55 and the standards and expectations were extremely exacting including little things like only handling internal structural pieces is such a way that the pencil scrawled notations from the 1940's engineers did not get smudged where they remained.  With an aircraft of this history there might be a lot of people who want to do it but probably vanishingly few who would be trusted not to damage it or harm it. 

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #92 on: December 04, 2013, 02:57:59 pm »
If I had Bill Gates's money I would pay for the restoration of both the HO-229 and J7W1 Shinden. Then I would take them to Germany and Japan for a few months to display them before returning them to the US. Someday when both of these are restored I will visit the Air & Space museum again. If the Kikka is also on display that will be a great bonus!
Yes we hope Shinden restration any way.

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #93 on: October 11, 2015, 02:25:25 am »
Hi! Kikka and Renzan.

Offline hesham

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #94 on: October 18, 2017, 08:55:40 am »
From Messerschmitt Me.262,Warbird Rech,

here is a comparison between Kikka and Karyu.

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #95 on: November 27, 2017, 07:13:06 am »
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

Offline blackkite

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #96 on: November 27, 2017, 02:04:04 pm »
Excellent find!!! Thanks a lot. :D

"Parts that experts concluded to be of the jet engine Ne-230 that was developed by the Imperial Japanese Army for the prototype of the Karyu jet fighter found in the premises of International Christian University(ICU, not Tokyo university) in Mitaka, western Tokyo."

There was Nakajima aircraft research institute(Fugaku engine development,etc) in the premises of ICU.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 05:30:27 am by blackkite »

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #97 on: November 28, 2017, 01:31:03 am »
No problem.
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

Offline sgeorges4

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« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 08:05:40 am by sgeorges4 »

Offline Artie Bob

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #99 on: August 17, 2018, 01:35:12 pm »
Unless things have changed, the US NASM policy and resulting execution in restoring aircraft has been somewhat more demanding and complex than many other museums.  Displaying the aircraft is somewhat secondary to making certain that the aircraft is returned to the condition of when it was built as an icon or perhaps a better term might be a "time capsule" of the technology incorporated in that aircraft. The restored aircraft in essentially all respects could be flown and all systems, materials and components, as much as possible are functional duplicates of the original.  Insuring that concept is expensive and perhaps difficult to monitor in a remote location.  The Do 335 situation was perhaps unique in some respects relative to it's restoration.

Best respects,

ArtieBob

Offline sgeorges4

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #100 on: August 19, 2018, 04:42:46 am »

Offline sgeorges4

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #101 on: August 19, 2018, 09:06:09 am »
nice cover from the new aero journal:

Offline sgeorges4

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #102 on: August 24, 2018, 01:32:08 am »
Did someone has a original drawing of the weapon arrangement on the fighters variant?
thank!

Offline iverson

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Re: Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka
« Reply #103 on: August 25, 2018, 12:54:11 pm »
what's that under the wing?

http://homesonthenet.info/asninfo-nakajima-j9n1-k-kikka.html
I visited Silver Hill some year back. As far as I can recall, the thing with the small opening at the front is a faked up engine nacelle that someone added to the airframe at some point after the originals were lost and before it came into the Smithsonian's collection.