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Author Topic: Sänger II aerospaceplane project  (Read 22444 times)

Offline PMN1

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2012, 11:15:46 am »
 From the Astronautix site

In 1994 it was concluded that development would have been very costly, while the design would reduce costs only 10 to 30% below that of the Ariane 5 expendable vehicle. Accordingly the project was cancelled.


Has anyone seen what the report said about why the proposal would produce such little saving over an expendable launcher?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 11:19:12 am by PMN1 »

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2012, 12:58:33 pm »
From the Astronautix site

In 1994 it was concluded that development would have been very costly, while the design would reduce costs only 10 to 30% below that of the Ariane 5 expendable vehicle. Accordingly the project was cancelled.


Has anyone seen what the report said about why the proposal would produce such little saving over an expendable launcher?

Sänger II "died" official in 1995, it was series of interacting reason what let to cancelation. 

the first: MBB  in 1980 start Sänger II as technology study and NOT as a official program !
1989 MBB became part of DASA (Deutsche Aerospace Aktiengesellschaft later Daimler Benz Aerospace Aktiengesellschaft. today EADS)
Second: the Sänger II concept had unusual success in Aerospace industry, media and german politic scene
because the option: Manned, unmanned space flight and a Mach 7 airliner
what let DASA to declare Sänger II to there "official" program, much to anger of France who work on Hermes space shuttle.
Third: This let to some German French dispute about ESA limited budget use on Hermes or Sänger II
Also let to a strange situation, that French also start study Sänger II like concept by CNES and Dassault!
in Germany Sänger II is study by Universities like RWTH Aachen, who made a feasibility study  on order by DFG (Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft)
more here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4564.0.html
Forth: Sänger II needed technology, what far far away from German level on hypersonic aerospace research.
it's major problem was the Mach 7 engine on first stage.
Fifth: In 1989 to 1991 Germany change completely, with collapse of East Germany and Unification of the two germanys.
Money was needed for Unification process, So Sänger II project came under the budget axe. 
in 1995 Sänger II had not enough budget for Engine test or build a Mach 7 demonstrator aircraft. also study from german Universities show that Sänger II is not cheaper as Ariane 5 launch vehicle, so the Project was terminated.   
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 01:01:31 pm by Michel Van »
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Offline PMN1

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2012, 04:38:27 pm »
Got to make you wonder if the person who decided the costs of a reusable vehicle were only 10 - 30% less than an expendable went on to a position with CNES or the manufacturer of the Vulcain or the P238 SRB's........

Interesting article a few years ago about how the reduced use of SRB's could impact the ability to produce SLBM and ICBM.

Online Grey Havoc

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2015, 10:30:32 am »
I've found an interesting 1988 DORNIER POST article on the Sänger concept via an old JPRS Report (PDF pages 8 and 9).
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Offline flateric

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Offline flateric

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Offline flateric

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2016, 11:24:16 am »
...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Barrington Bond

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2016, 12:23:35 pm »
Dornier Sanger D  :)
"It hasn't squeaked in a week!"

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2016, 03:40:10 am »
note about picture posted by Barrington Bond

Sänger-D
the D stand for Dornier
while Ä or Umlaut-A is Open-mid front unrounded vowel ae so in english it's Saenger-D

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Offline Jemiba

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2016, 11:40:47 am »
Taken last Friday during a behind-the scenes tour in the "Militärhistorisches Museum Gatow" (military historical museum Gatow),
ex "Luftwaffenmuseum Gatow", those photos of model in 1 : 8,5 scale, maybe the same as shown in Flateri´cs post here
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,580.msg256280.html#msg256280.
Getting a complete view was almost impossible due to the quite cramped storage in that hangar, sorry.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2016, 03:08:06 am »
Interesting. So the top half of the second stage was silver. Does that include the top surface of the wings?

Offline martinbayer

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2016, 07:00:12 am »
Interesting. So the top half of the second stage was silver. Does that include the top surface of the wings?

Sure, why not: https://www.google.com/search?q=S%C3%A4nger+horus&num=100&lr=&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjY9-KKl9LMAhUN2GMKHbT3C1AQ_AUIBygB&biw=1600&bih=1085

Anything's possible with a model.

Martin
Would be marching to the beat of his own drum, if he didn't detest marching to any drumbeat at all so much.

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2016, 04:15:21 am »


Some explanation on that text.

BMFT = Bundesministerium für Bildung und Forschung (Federal Ministry of Education and Research)

Daimler-Benz Aeropspace aka DASA merged with Aérospatiale-Matra and CASA to form EADS in 2000.

MAN = Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg, here there subdivision MAN Technologie

DLR = Deutsche Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt e. V. (German Aerospace Center )

IABG = Industrieanlagen-Betriebsgesellschaft mbH (Analyst and Testing Materials company)

university of
Aachen = Rheinisch-Westfälische Technische Hochschule Aachen (independently feasibility study on MMB Sänger)
Braunschweig = Technische Universität Braunschweig
München = Technische Universität München
Stuttgart = Universität Stuttgart

what exactly the three university, had to do with Sänger i don't know.
Technische Universität München and Universität Stuttgart  have Aerospace department. 
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 04:17:38 am by Michel Van »
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Offline martinbayer

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2016, 07:38:26 am »
Michel,

thank you for pointing out the "small print". I studied aerospace engineering at Universität Stuttgart and later worked in the space studies departments of IABG, where I briefly had an affiliation with the Sänger II "Förderkonzept Hyperschalltechnologie", as it was officially called, and then MAN Technologie, so this picture is evocative to me.

Martin
Would be marching to the beat of his own drum, if he didn't detest marching to any drumbeat at all so much.

Offline flateric

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2016, 04:35:22 am »
...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works