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Author Topic: Messerschmitt Me 321/323, pre- and follow-on projects (ZSO 523)  (Read 33586 times)

Offline toura

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Re: Messerschmitt Me 321/323, pre- and follow-on projects (ZSO 523)
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2009, 07:47:59 am »
hi Jemiba.
ALL IS GOOD. THANKS
i send you a document
Bye.

joncarrfarrelly

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Re: Messerschmitt Me 321/323, pre- and follow-on projects (ZSO 523)
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2009, 05:26:06 pm »
I'll send you the projects list from the mentioned book and the articles about
the ZSO 523 and the airliner this evening.

MBB was actually founded as late as 1969 and Messerschmitt developed quite
a lot of designs in the meantime, although not only aircraft ! His most famous
non-aircraft probably was this :
(photo from wikipedia)

Except the Kabinenroller wasn't Willie's design, it was developed by Fritz Fend
from his earlier invalid carriages and Flitzer.

Messerschmitt suggested refinements to Fend's design that led to the Messerschmitt
produced vehicle being larger than the original, however the design was primarily the
work of Fend. Fend had worked at Messerschmitt during the war.

http://microcarmuseum.com/tour/fend-flitzer-101.html

http://microcarmuseum.com/tour/messerschmitt-kr175.html

Jon
 

Offline toura

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Re: Messerschmitt Me 321/323, pre- and follow-on projects (ZSO 523)
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2009, 11:28:32 pm »
dear joncarrfarrey.
Very interesting, I've never see the first model !
Thanks. Bye

Offline c460

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Re: Messerschmitt Me 321/323, pre- and follow-on projects (ZSO 523)
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2009, 01:29:20 pm »
There is a bit more information on the ZSO.523 in the book Nieuport 1909-1950 (Docavia no.38) by Rosenthal, Marchand et al.
The study was done by a team led by Pillon and Robin. This was a team of former Nieuport engineers, integrated into the SNCASO in Cannes in 1941. The team was moved from Cannes to Paris and Issy-les-Moulineaux in late 1943, then they started to work on the Zeppelin project under threat of being sent to Germany.
A wooden mockup was built in the Levasseur factory (the book has a picture of the mockup). The prototype should have been produced by Zeppelin in Friedrichshafen, and the SNCASO would have participated in the series production.
It is said that the study was made at the lowest possible pace, while the team was secretly studying its own military projects. After the war, the Issy-les-Moulineaux team was transferred to the SNCAC, and one of these wartime secret studies became the SNCAC NC.1070 two-engine naval torpedo bomber. Experience gathered with the ZSO.523 project was used for the NC.211 Cormoran four-engine cargo, which indeed shows some similarity to the Gigant design.

Offline Nico

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Re: Messerschmitt Me 321/323, pre- and follow-on projects (ZSO 523)
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2011, 01:28:17 am »
 Me 323 with Alfa engines?
I received a couple of days ago a mail from a friend, quoting another mail from a fan of Alfa Romeo aircraft engines. This guy wrote of an hypothetical Me 323 V15 (or Me 323C) flown in 1942 with four Alfa 135 engines and the friend of mine asked me if I have any information about that prototype.
Personally I know that the Me 323C (originally Me 321C Gigant) was to have been a motorized glider rather than a fully-fledged powered transport. The project studies considered several power plants with four or six engines (BMW 801, BMW-Bramo 132R -itself a version of the Pratt & Whitney Hornet-B-, Jumo 211and Gnome-et-Rhône 14N). Finally, the latter was choosen (with four units per aircraft), removing all GR 14N 48/49 from Bloch 175 airframes.
According to my sources, Me 323 V1 was the prototype for the four-engined Me 323C, but serie production was only in the Me 323E and F six-engined versions.
Billy Green's encyclopaedia on German warplanes mentions the Me 323 V15 as an attempt to improve further the defensive capabilities of the Gigant, with no mentions of Alfa Romeo (AR)135 RC.32 or RC.35 Perseo engines. According to Green, further developments are V16 (Me 323F) with six Jumo 211R and V17 (Me 323G) with six GR.14R.
Anyone of you, friends, have something to tell my friend about this matter?
Nico
 

Offline Arjen

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Re: Messerschmitt Me 321/323, pre- and follow-on projects (ZSO 523)
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2011, 04:31:27 am »
I found a list of Me 323 projects in "Willy Messerschmitt - Pionier der Luftfahrt und des Leichtbaues" by Hans Ebert/Johann B Kaiser/Klaus Peters, Bernard & Graefe Verlag, 1992. In this book, the authors claim several engines were tested on Me 323 prototypes, among them Jumo 211 and Alfa Romeo (p.227).

To make matters even more exciting, Prof. Lösch and Dipl.-Ing Pauker of the technical univerity in Vienna suggested the use of a steamturbine in the Me 321. Prof. Adolf Baeumker of the Reichsluftfahrtministerium took over development of this idea in 1941, but after testing the Me 321 (<edit>*without* the steamturbine</edit>), the idea was shelved. In 1942, Woldemar Voigt proposed fitting the Me 321 with twelve Argus As 014 300 kgf pulsejets, or twenty-four smaller 150 kgf pulsejets.  With rocket-assisted take-off. That idea never took off either (p.226).
« Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 05:01:56 am by Arjen »

Offline airman

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Re: Messerschmitt Me 321/323, pre- and follow-on projects (ZSO 523)
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2011, 02:41:26 pm »
Then there was a connection with Me 323 and ZSO 523   ???
Well, could be interesting find more about projects inside development of Me-323 to ZSO 523 !  ::)
writers , bloggers , content-curators ,  music composer and passionate of militaria and uchronia

Offline Jemiba

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It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Messerschmitt Me 321/323, pre- and follow-on projects (ZSO 523)
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2011, 12:49:28 am »
The issue of Alfa 135 flown on a prototype of the Me-321 was uncovered by my friend Gianni Cattaneo in 2005. The news is contained in the extended "curriculum vitae" of Ing. Roberto Amadi, who worked for Alfa from 1937 to after the war. His work was to assist airframe companies in integrating Alfa engines in their designs and then test the results. In 1942, Amadi writes, Willy Messerchmitt came at Alfa and bought a series of Alfa 135 for his Gigant. Amadi did a series of trip to Berlin (RLM) and to Leipheim, a test airport near Ulm, with the techicians working with him. Later in 1942, after the engines had been installed on the Me-321, Amadi did a test flight with Alfa and Messerschmitt technicians. Some minutes in flight, the test had to be interrupted because the airstream produced by the propellers tored apart the fabric revestment of the wing. The fragments flew on the tail controls, hampering the pilot's ability to manouver, The aircraft nevertheless was able to come back and land. That's all I know. I know moreover that Fabio Morlacchi, who is doing extensive research on Alfa aeronautical activities, has uncovered some documents, so he said during a conference a couple of months ago. He is writing a book on Alfa aero engines.

Offline Nico

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Re: Messerschmitt Me 321/323, pre- and follow-on projects (ZSO 523)
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2011, 10:13:24 am »
Thank Sky,
I think that can be a definitive word on the matter!


Nico

Offline toura

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Re: Messerschmitt Me 321/323, pre- and follow-on projects (ZSO 523)
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2011, 11:20:46 pm »
HI ALL
The zso 523 model !

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Messerschmitt Me 321/323, pre- and follow-on projects (ZSO 523)
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2012, 05:18:53 pm »
There is a huge (17 pages!) article on the ZSO 523 Super Gigant in the German Luftfahrt History N°8. It is packed with photos and drawings (mostly from the RLM reference documents) which has to be the definitive source. I'm only posting a few here, without captions or technical details, and in medium-sized quality, but for anyone interested in German (and French) projects, this is a must. It also contains a similarly packed article on the Junkers EF 94/Ju 322 Mammut.
 
 
 
 More information here:
http://www.lautecmedien.de/luftfahrt_history-_die_neue_luftfahrtzeitschrift.php

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Messerschmitt Me 321/323, pre- and follow-on projects (ZSO 523)
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2012, 05:20:29 pm »
More pics:

Offline iffig

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Re: Messerschmitt Me 321/323, pre- and follow-on projects (ZSO 523)
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2012, 01:33:38 am »
SNCASO = Société de Constructions Aéronautiques du Sud-Ouest
 
A November 1936 combination of: Blériot, Bloch, S.A.S.O, U.C.A, S.A.B., Lioré & Olivier.

Offline hesham

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Re: Messerschmitt Me 321/323, pre- and follow-on projects (ZSO 523)
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2014, 06:25:06 am »
Hi,


in an article about Messerschmitt Me.321 & Me.323 there is a strange drawing to "Me.261 w" with
Me.321,and I don't know what was this Me.261,a glider ?.


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