AARS, Lockheed QUARTZ, Tier III, Frontier Systems W570, Arrow, Shadow

Matej said:
quellish said:
Actually, Tier III- was pretty unrelated, it's family tree is different than that of QUARTZ. The original design came from another program....

Which is? I am still very interested ;)

ASPA/ATB. Lockheed reached some of the same conclusions that Northrop did about how best to meet the requirements and designed a vehicle that was very close to the original Northrop ATB. The "Lockheed ATB" photos that are in the public domain right now are NOT that aircraft. Lockheed had two efforts going. ATA-B, which then was rolled into their original ATB designs, and a high aspect ratio flying wing with fewer facets. This is what eventually became QUARTZ a few years later with Boeing, and some of the different configuration studies have lived on in other programs. Some of Lockheed's SensorCraft work is directly derived from these studies (and others). For example, a SensorCraft high aspect ratio flying wing with a pyramid shaped nose was a QUARTZ configuration. My understanding is that Boeing actually had more input into the final QUARTZ configuration than Lockheed did.

ATA-B is the pole model cited as being the Lockheed ATB.
 
flateric said:
fightingirish, please note that this is truly notional study having nothing with actual LMSW thoughts of DarkStar development.
Anyway, thanks.

Huh, I finaly read it all and found this:

Skunkworks designers are continuing evolutionary improvements on the DarkStar platform. Their conceptual design in figure 5-2 provides a look at a twin engine platform capable of increased range, speed, and payload capacity that has the potential to function as a UAV strike platform. This design could serve as the basis for future StrikeStar developments.

From the keyword "their" I come to the conclusion, that the two engined DarkStar proposal is actual Lockheed design. However from other parts of the report I came to another conclusion, that this DarkStar development was only a concept or at best demonstration study, that can be used for the future development (that probably led to Polecat). Wrong? Right?
 
Thanks for that. But my question was aimed primarily to DarkStar. Does its shape come from another/earlier program or was it all-new development?
 
Matej said:
Thanks for that. But my question was aimed primarily to DarkStar. Does its shape come from another/earlier program or was it all-new development?

Ah. I do not know for sure, but I think it came from a QUARTZ configuration study, at least initially. It is possible that it has more heritage in another program though, like some of the Navy HALE programs from the 70s or 80s. Lockheed's very large Navy RPV (ENCHANTMENT) from the 80s had a similar straight wing, so it's possible.
 
quellish said:
ATA-B is the pole model cited as being the Lockheed ATB.

My inclination is to agree with this perspective on the two different designs that have both been been associated with the Lockheed "SENIOR PEG" program. The design presented publicly by Jim Goodall which resembles the original Northrop ATB concept (plus facets and twin tails) is probably SENIOR PEG because it agrees with Ben Rich's description of the Lockheed ATB design. It likely led to QUARTZ, and the same basic planform (minus facets and twin tails) is still evident in the LockMart-Boeing NGB design.

The pole model from the Landis F-117 book is at odds with Ben Rich's description, and shares many facet patterns (nose and wingtips for starters) with the F-117. I'd suspect that this design was the Lockheed ATA-B, the bigger brother to the F-117 which was going to carry an F-111 sized payload.
 
In the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments (CSBA) doc 'Future Warfare 20XX Wargame Series: Lessons Learned Report'

(http://www.csbaonline.org/4Publications/PubLibrary/R.20011201.FutureWarXX/R.20011201.FutureWarXX.pdf)

there is the following reference:

...What is needed is a stealthy version of the Global Hawk. Fortunately, most of the R&D
required to field this type of system was conducted in the 1980s under the Advanced Airborne
Reconnaissance System (AARS)
program. (For an excellent overview of this program, see Ehrhard, “A Comparative Study of Weapon System Innovation: Unmanned Aerial Vehicles in the United States Armed Services,” pp. 136-158). Originally intended to find and track mobile launchers for Soviet intermediate- and intercontinental-range ballistic missiles, the AARS platform, code-named “Quartz,” was envisioned as an extremely stealthy UAV equipped with an array of high-resolution sensors and high-capacity satellite communications capabilities.60 With a wingspan of some 250 feet, it would have been able to fly at an altitude of about 80,000 feet for several days at a time. In outward appearance, it was more or less a substantially scaled-up version of the Darkstar UAV that was cancelled in 1999. A stealthy HALE UAV program based upon the AARS and Tier-III designs should be restarted soon

Whilst I can find other references to this document (inc from http://www.au.af.mil/au/aul/bibs/unmannedsys.htm), which was a PhD Thesis by Col. Thomas P Ehrhard whilst at Johns Hopkins apparently circa 2000, I haven't been able to find an actual .pdf of it online. Anyone seen it?
 
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The picture released by Jim Goodall and posted at dreamlandresort appears to be an F-111 class aircraft and is nearly identical to the F-117 (at least in plan form) except for the large V-tail hanging on a boom out the back of the aircraft. That aircraft is a as much of a "flying wing" as the F-117 is.

In Ben Rich's Skunk Works book he describes Lockheed's ATB/B-2 design as being a flying wing with a small tail. The pole model in the Tony Landis book meets those descriptions. (See Pages 310-11.) A few pages back (Pages 303-305), Rich describes a competing proposal to General Dynamics FB-111H proposal which had a range of 3,600 nautical miles and a payload of 10,000 lbs. I strongly suspect that the aircraft depicted on dreamlandresort is that aircraft/"ATA-B".


CFE said:
My inclination is to agree with this perspective on the two different designs that have both been been associated with the Lockheed "SENIOR PEG" program. The design presented publicly by Jim Goodall which resembles the original Northrop ATB concept (plus facets and twin tails) is probably SENIOR PEG because it agrees with Ben Rich's description of the Lockheed ATB design. It likely led to QUARTZ, and the same basic planform (minus facets and twin tails) is still evident in the LockMart-Boeing NGB design.

The pole model from the Landis F-117 book is at odds with Ben Rich's description, and shares many facet patterns (nose and wingtips for starters) with the F-117. I'd suspect that this design was the Lockheed ATA-B, the bigger brother to the F-117 which was going to carry an F-111 sized payload.
 
mr_london_247 said:
Whilst I can find other references to this document (inc from http://www.au.af.mil/au/aul/bibs/unmannedsys.htm), which was a PhD Thesis by Col. Thomas P Ehrhard whilst at Johns Hopkins apparently circa 2000, I haven't been able to find an actual .pdf of it online. Anyone seen it?

I've been looking for it as well, but no luck so far.
 
Thomas Paul Ehrhard, "Unmanned Aerial Vehicles in the United States Armed Services: A Comparative Study of Weapon System Innovation." Ph.D. dissertation, Political Science, Johns Hopkins, 2001. AAT 3006390

I think i'll have to contact the University direct and see if their historical archives have it and pay up for a copy. A most quoted piece of work and an invaluable research tool / historical paper to have a hard copy of.
 
And another intriguing ref in "The U.S. Air Force Remotely Piloted Aircraft and Unmanned Aerial Vehicle Strategic Vision" (http://www.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-060322-009.pdf):

The most comprehensive unclassified history of RPA and UAV testing and employment through 1999 is Unmanned Aerial Vehicles in the United States Armed Services: A Comparative Study of Weapon System Innovation, by Colonel Thomas P. Ehrhard. Colonel Ehrhard submitted this definitive work as his PhD dissertation at Johns Hopkins University in 2000. This section of The Strategic Vision is derived primarily from his work.
 
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Frontier Systems was the company that Abe Karem and key members of Leading Systems founded after Amber. Loral provided the overall program management and sensor integration management. One of the development efforts they had working on was a 26,000 lb flying wing concept for theater missile defense, called the W570A. (A slightly smaller version for ISR and communications relay missions for export and civilian use, was called the Arrow.) Reportedly, $10M was invested in its development. A scaled down version of the W570, the 3500 lb Shadow flying wing, was studied under the Tier II+ Phase I, and built in April 1996 as a high altitude endurance flight test bed and high altitude UAV trainer.

Air Vehicle Specifications – Developmental Systems
Shephard’s Unmanned Vehicles Handbook 2007
The Shephard Press, 1996
 

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thanks to Mike Hirschberg for the first hand
 
flateric said:
http://books.google.com/books?id=iAFzNwAACAAJ&dq

1448 pages...ugh

He didn't have time to produce a shorter report.
 
Matej said:
WOW!

Regarding the 1400+ page study: is anybody nearby? http://tinyurl.com/262edcv

Most Ph.D. theses can be obtained through Inter-Library Loan in the United States.
 
This may be of interest...
 

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Well, there are some pages availiable for Preview from JHU, but only from the start of the Thesis:


Anyway, I've purchased a copy and am waiting for a .PDF download link it appears... assuming there's no copyright issue I will post AARS/Tier III info if I actually get it...
 
Well, it really explains a lot, just in brief for tonight: Pete Aldridge was responsible for the start of the AARS Program, and the main source who provided info on AARS in the Thesis is a David Keir (who is slated as being the final AARS Program Manager), and who later became a Deputy Director of the NRO?

I'm not familiar with the name and have no time to search right now. I will try and summarise as best I can on Friday evening UK time. There really is a lot which will be of interest to members in here I believe, a couple of brief references may even cause some controversy.... how about a Tier IV? ;)

It is marked as Copyright Thomas Erhard: I'll have to take advice on that, in what form can I best share it?
 
mr_london_247 said:
Well, it really explains a lot, just in brief for tonight: Pete Aldridge was responsible for the start of the AARS Program, and the main source who provided info on AARS in the Thesis is a David Keir (who is slated as being the final AARS Program Manager), and who later became a Deputy Director of the NRO?

I'm not familiar with the name and have no time to search right now. I will try and summarise as best I can on Friday evening UK time. There really is a lot which will be of interest to members in here I believe, a couple of brief references may even cause some controversy.... how about a Tier IV? ;)

It is marked as Copyright Thomas Erhard: I'll have to take advice on that, in what form can I best share it?

Unfortuantely that probably means it can't be shared :(
Does it go into the relationships between TEAL CAMEO, QUARTZ, AARS, Tier III, and ENCHANTMENT? Or does it only cover AARS and its evolution into the DARO/DARPA Tier UAVs?
 
mr_london_247 said:
It is marked as Copyright Thomas Erhard: I'll have to take advice on that, in what form can I best share it?

At best you could publicly post portions of the book under the doctrine of "fair use." Although you're not supposed to, there's nothing to prevent you from sharing an entire scan with an individual as long as you're not profiting or hurting the author's ability to profit from the work (and in the case of a Ph.D. dissertation, you're not really doing that). And you can always indicate what the book actually says.

But you cannot scan the whole thing and post it without violating copyright.
 
Thanks for the sensible advice Gents.

It does indeed mention all of those things Quellish (and other earlier RPV/UAV programs, with the possible exception of ENCHANTMENT), although its 700-odd (rather than 1400) pages and I've only skipped through it so far. I did see a reference to TEAL CAMEO implying it to be more than I knew it to be, which was one of the first surprises. I think there is also reference to 'Special Platform', but I need to read further to see if this is the 'Air Force Special Platform'. I believe your pages from 2000 (http://homepage.mac.com/quellish/bd2/aircraft/afsp/) are still the best reference to this enigma.

A couple of the potential controveries include the briefest reference to a manned supersonic SR-71 follow on possibly being part of the AARS Program (for NRO). A reference to a 'TR-3' as being a study of a seperate, lower-tech (and importantly: cheaper) manned vehicle AFTER 'Tier-III' was dying. A mooted number of 7 or 8 for an intended AARS/Quartz production run of the largest wing design (250 feet @ roughly a Billion each as we already knew). A reference to the Air Force wishing a flying prototype of this vehicle to be manned or 'optionally manned' due to concerns over UAV reliability. Unfortunately I don't think there are any diagrams of the design's for any of the potential AARS vehicles.

I'm at work right now but intend to get everything together tonight and quote it in sections (but not reproduce it). Unfortunately the .pdf is a scan of the original so the text isn't recognised for searching. So I'll have to be thorough in going through it. I'd certainly recommend a purchase for serious or semi-serious research, it only cost me $37.
 
I contacted Hopkins and (CSIS?) where he is now last year looking for a copy, but never got replies :(

mr_london_247 said:
Thanks for the sensible advice Gents.

It does indeed mention all of those things Quellish (and other earlier RPV/UAV programs, with the possible exception of ENCHANTMENT), although its 700-odd (rather than 1400) pages and I've only skipped through it so far. I did see a reference to TEAL CAMEO implying it to be more than I knew it to be, which was one of the first surprises. I think there is also reference to 'Special Platform', but I need to read further to see if this is the 'Air Force Special Platform'. I believe your pages from 2000 (http://homepage.mac.com/quellish/bd2/aircraft/afsp/) are still the best reference to this enigma.

AFSP has become a good example of bad classification rules :)
The public side of TEAL CAMEO was Condor, but that was not nearly the whole story. TEAL CAMEO was, apparently, the *whole* DARPA HALE UAV during the 1980s. People may remember concept art of large, solar powered and microwave powered aircraft from that era - much like today's Vulture. Those studies were part of TEAL CAMEO. There were several specific missions identified, one of which evolved into Tier 3.
Another mission was for the Navy. The Navy was interested in a large, persistent platform for detecting Backfire bombers approaching a carrier battle group. Boeing ended up developing Condor with it's own funds and some support from DARPA, the Navy ended up being interested in the work but not the vehicle. It is not clear to me yet wether ENCHANTMENT was a Lockheed TEAL CAMEO effort, or something separate.
TEAL RAIN developed propulsion technology, and TEAL AMBER was the Amber UAVs.

mr_london_247 said:
A couple of the potential controveries include the briefest reference to a manned supersonic SR-71 follow on possibly being part of the AARS Program (for NRO). A reference to a 'TR-3' as being a study of a seperate, lower-tech (and importantly: cheaper) manned vehicle AFTER 'Tier-III' was dying. A mooted number of 7 or 8 for an intended AARS/Quartz production run of the largest wing design (250 feet @ roughly a Billion each as we already knew). A reference to the Air Force wishing a flying prototype of this vehicle to be manned or 'optionally manned' due to concerns over UAV reliability. Unfortunately I don't think there are any diagrams of the design's for any of the potential AARS vehicles.

At least at a high level, this seems to be right on the money.
AARS was a "system of systems" program at least at one point, and included both manned and unmanned components ;)
There was also planning for a Tier 4, which was to be a Global Hawk class vehicle but much more stealthy. TR had a Global Hawk variant, and Loral *was* pushing a W570 design. Flateric's post of a W570 variant makes me wonder if Tier 4 really went away.

mr_london_247 said:
I'm at work right now but intend to get everything together tonight and quote it in sections (but not reproduce it). Unfortunately the .pdf is a scan of the original so the text isn't recognised for searching. So I'll have to be thorough in going through it. I'd certainly recommend a purchase for serious or semi-serious research, it only cost me $37.

Hopefully I'll be able to get a copy soon!
 
Post #1 of 2: The AARS .

(Post #2 will be Tier III).

Everything below is quoting from the Thesis as precisely as I can where it refers to AARS, I've put References made in the main body text in itallics here:

(Ref 301, pg 138) There is some anecdotal evidence the the Air Force began working on a stealthy loitering system in the late 1970's (perhaps as an extension of COMPASS COPE), but no supporting documentary evidence was found. Donald C. Latham, the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Command, Control and Communications, and Intelligence from 1981-1988 thought AARS may have dated back to the late 1970's. Donald C. Latham, interview, 9 April 1999.

(pg 139).... Edward C. "Pete" Aldridge, Jr. began the preliminary design explorations on such a UAV soon after taking office in August 1981 (Ref 304). That UAV program became AARS. As John McLucas said, "Pete Aldridge brought aircraft back [into the NRO]. He obviously didn't think, as I did, that we should divest NRO of airborne assets". (Ref 305)

(Ref 304, pg 139) Aldridge was in a position to manage both NRO and USAF "black" projects in his position as NRO Director and Undersecretary (later Secretary) of the Air Force...

(Ref 305, pg 139) McLucas interview. It is entirely possible that, in addition to AARS, the USAF/NRO/CIA airborne reconaissance investments included at least one supersonic, manned SR-71 replacement project.

(pg 139/140).... and after several studies investigating the concept, the Air Force accepted design proposals from seven US aerospace companies for the big, covert surveillance UAV (Ref 306).

(Ref 306, pg 140) A 1995 report on the stealthy DarkStar UAV, a direct descendant of AARS, said "Most of the design was developed in technology work conducted over the last decade or more." Michael A. Dornheim, "Mission of Tier 3- Reflected in Design." Aviation Week & Space Technology 19 June 1995.

[mr_london_247: discussion of the initial intended AARS mission takes place here: to specifically loiter and track SS-24 & SS-25 rail and road-mobile missiles]

(Ref 307, pg 140) SDI spawned a number of UAV projects that overlapped AARS. SDI contractors proposed long-dwell UAVs as a possible platform for carrying the airborne optical adjunct (AOA) for tracking warheads in flight. Early designs for AOA UAVs were very high altitude, large (240 foot wingspan) airplanes with long loiter capability. A fleet of 20 air vehicles was projected to cost $10 Billion. Frederick Seitz. et al., "Report of the Technical Panel on Missile Defense in the 1990's," Washington, DC: George C. Marshall Institute....

(pg 141).... in the end the Air Force/NRO/CIA consortium opted for a leap-ahead system and awarded competitive UAV contracts to aerospace giants Lockheed and Boeing, probably in late 1984 or early 1985.

(Ref 306, pg 141).... It is possible that AARS had a much higher standard of stealth than either the F-117 or B2....

(pg 142).... As one CIA engineer said in an anonymous interview, this project was "the cat's pyjamas," and "the single most fun project I ever worked on" becuase it stretched every conceivable technology area. The Soviet mobile missile threat loomed large and the Reagan administration kept the black money flowing. The big UAV had different codenames that still remain secret, but the characteristically bland cover name for it was the Advanced Airborne Reconaissance System (AARS). (Ref 312).

(Ref 312, pg 142) Aerospace reporter John Boatman was told by unnamed government officials that the name for the AARS started with the letter "Q." the letter insiders used as the shorthand name for the program. Boatman's report remains the best single open-source account of the AARS program although it made no splash at the time. John Boatman, "USA Planned Stealthy UAV to Replace SR-71," Jane's Defence Weekly 17 December 1994: 1. AARS may have been associated with the codename TEAL CAMEO, reportedly a highly secret program to replace the U-2. "Eyes in the Sky," Newsweek 17 November 1986.

(pg 144) .... AARS was, indeed, planned to be the ultimate surveillance UAV, one of the most ambitious Cold War aircraft programs ever. In an exclusive interview for this study, the last AARS program manager emerged from the shadows.... David Kier, now the deputy director of the NRO, disclosed that the large, stealthy high altitude reconassiance bird resembles a substantially scaled-up version of DARPA's DarkStar.... Kier acknowledged that AARS had a long history dating to the early 1980s, "maybe even the 1970s,".... "There was one do-all platform that was very, very expensive, then another scaled-down version that only did a few things," he said. In fact, a Lockheed engineer disclosed in 1995 that over 50 shapes were analyzed for AARS, with the eventual shape, the very odd "flying clam," always showing better stealth characteristics for the high altitude loiter mission.

(pg 145) When Congress directed unified management of conventional Department of Defense (DOD) UAV projects in late 1987, they also ordered centralized control of secret, "national" airborne reconaissance projects through a new agency called the Airborne Reconnaissance Support Program (ARSP) in the National Reconnaissance Office. ARSP was essentially a resurrection of the NRO's "Program D," which had been disbanded in 1974.

(Ref 323 pg 145).... Kier's dates [circa 1987] are confirmed by reports of the Air Force's interest in an SR-71 replacement at that time. The Air Force was apparently looking at various manned platforms for that mission - this article mentions the manned Lockheed Aurora project as one possible competitor. Studying the various competitors for AARS probably ate up valuable time, ultimately making it more vulnerable when the post-Cold War budget cuts came in 1992. Jane Callen. "Air Force Battle Brews Over Using Unmanned Vehicles for Coveted Spy Mission," Inside the Pentagon 9 June 1989.

(pg 147).... ARSP considered three UAVs for the SR-71 replacement role, two DARPA UAVs called AMBER and CONDOR, and a "Lockheed candidate," which was undoubtedly AARS. As previously mentioned, the underlying reason for the Air Force's interest in the AARS program was the mobile missile threat, but it also helped them justify how the very expensive and controversial B-2 stealth bomber might hold those missiles at risk. The B-2 could not find those missiles by itself and satellites did not provide constant surveillance.

(Ref 331, pg 148).... "Kier's Bird," as some called it, lacked a quality called "time-to-station," or sheer intercontinental speed in the event of a crisis. A military official interviewed in 1994 said another very fast alternative to AARS was dropped in the 1980s, possibly the enigmatic Aurora. Boatman, "USA Planned Stealthy UAV".

(pg 149).... Kier said the large version of AARS, which according to some reports had a wingspan of 250 feet, cost less than a B-2, but more than $1 billion a copy. Reportedly, the production plan called for only eight vehicles at a cost of $10 billion, each of the vehicles capable of an amazing 40 hours on station after flying to the area of interest. Air Force officials were so leery of the UAV's autonomous flight concept (no pilot had moment-to-moment control) that they reportedly insisted the flying prototype carry a pilot in order to handle in-flight anomalies, and that the final design include a modular, two-place cockpit insert to make it optionally piloted.

(pg 151).... Kier mentioned that several other concepts for manned alternatives to AARS popped up in the early 1990s, including a minimalist design called the TR-3 that he derisively called a "Cessna 172 compared to a 747 [AARS]." (Ref 341)

(Ref 341 pg 151) A likely candidate for a program fitting Kier's description was a moderately stealthy (all-composite) high altitude German airframe called Egrett.... Egrett was an optionally piloted 55,000 foot loitering aircraft that went by the codename SENIOR GUARDIAN....

(pg 152).... the State Department dealt AARS a mortal blow. In the latter half of 1991 they ruled that AARS would not get overflight clearance until hostilities were imminent (Ref 344)

(Ref 344 pg 152) anonymous source.

(pg 152).... AARS was kept alive by other agencies until finally terminated by intelligence community executives in mid-December 1992....
 
Got my copy today, and thankfully I'm blessed with a high reading rate ;)

Most of the information is about the program rather than the vehicle(s), and so it may not be of interest to everyone on the forum. The closest it comes to describing the "final" vehicle configuration for QUARTZ is the "flying clam" scaled up DarkStar. He does mention, however, that Lockheed alone went through over 50 iterations (as mr_london_247 quotes in his post).
Several of those you have seen in various forms here :)

There are a couple of important things that were missed though. AARS is often used to describe the QUARTZ and/or Tier III vehicle (or requirement!), but AARS was just like the "Tier" UAVs - a system of systems. AARS grew from TEAL CAMEO, which unfortunately is only mentioned in a footnote in the paper. TEAL CAMEO was a DARPA effort to develop HALE UAVs (HAPP(?) RPVs at the time). DARPA found that the Navy had a mission for such a platform, and the intelligence community did as well. Long story short, DARPA ended up funding Boeing's Condor for the Navy mission (which the Navy was not in love with), and the intelligence community and STRATCOM ran with AARS.
One of the missions AARS was to handle was the Strategic Relocatable Targets mission. This is mentioned quite a bit in the paper, and during the 80s and 90s there was a LOT of investment in that area. Test and training ranges, simulation facilities, everything. Some of this was to support a slow, long loiter vehicle, some not. The B-2 was always intended to take data from offboard platforms in order to find moble missiles. Other assets would narrow the haystack a B-2 would use its SAR to search for targets.
Some analysts have proposed that LACROSSE would be used for this, which may be true for rail based missiles, but did not quite work for road mobile missiles.
One point brought up in the paper was that QUARTZ would have to be prepositioned before a crisis to be effective. In SIOP terms, this would mean that QUARTZ aircraft would have to be moved close to the USSR before the start of hostilities in order to get in ahead of the B-2 and find targets. Needless to say, there were some flaws with this plan. At least in the late 1980s, there was a high speed component to AARS that was to dash in ahead of the B-2s.

So AARS comprised:
HALE UAV: QUARTZ (Called, interchangably, AARS, QUARTZ, and Tier III, though Tier III was a different design for the same requirements)
High Speed Long Range: There was a term for this, which I have since forgotten. AWST mentioned it a few times in the late 90s. In the late 70s an air launched boost glide vehicle was looked at for essentially the same mission but discarded.
Endurance UAV: AMBER/Gnat

While AARS was in its death throes during 1992-1993, CIA, NRO, STRATCOM, USAF, and SDIO all had their fingers in the pie. Not a recipe for success!
 
quellish said:
While AARS was in its death throes during 1992-1993, CIA, NRO, STRATCOM, USAF, and SDIO all had their fingers in the pie. Not a recipe for success!

So they used RQ-170 as AARS ?
 
The last effort really inspired me to do everything what I can (on the theme that is from a few, that I am the most interested in). I did.

Shadow/Arrow/W570
Engine: One 700 lb st Williams F112 turbofan. / - / Twin 2,300 lb st Willaims-Rolls FJ44-2E turbofans
Wingspan: 19.81 / 35.13 / 48.79 m
Wing area: - / 65.03 / 125.42 m
Total length: 3.10 / 5.51/ 7.67 m
Total height: 1.83 / 1.98 / 2.74 m
Empty weight: 907 / 1,588 / 3,402 kg
Max. payload: 91 / 454 / 4,536 kg
Max. take-off weight: 1,588 / 10,886 / 20,412 kg
Max level speed: Mach 0,7
Max cruise speed: Mach 0,5 - 0,65
Service celling: 50,000 / 70,000 / 70,000 ft
Range: - / 18 000 / 18 000 nm
Max endurance: 12 / 60 / 60 h

Source of the technical data: http://www.uavcenter.com/english/wwuavs/north_america/eLR.asp
 

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quellish said:
Got my copy today, and thankfully I'm blessed with a high reading rate ;)

Oh dear!, I'm sorry - I was tired and had a few things on... :-[

quellish said:
So AARS comprised:
HALE UAV: QUARTZ (Called, interchangably, AARS, QUARTZ, and Tier III, though Tier III was a different design for the same requirements)

Ah but thats just it isn't it: QUARTZ was one of the AARS vehicles but Tier III was quite a seperate and slightly later proposal under another study. That's what I've personally taken away from this doc. David Kier tried again to sell the same planform, but a bit smaller, slightly less capable, and most importantly: cheaper. I don't think I was clear on that previously, I was more or less viewing AARS as a single vehicle: the QUARTZ, and an AF version in my mind as probably the same vehicle but renamed: Tier III.

quellish said:
High Speed Long Range: There was a term for this, which I have since forgotten. AWST mentioned it a few times in the late 90s. In the late 70s an air launched boost glide vehicle was looked at for essentially the same mission but discarded.

My dear Quellish, surely we must know more on this? ;)
 
seruriermarshal said:
So they used RQ-170 as AARS ?

This is an interesting point, as in a way the AARS mission exists again today: but now to find and track say a Toyota Hilux moving across the border from Iraq into Iran, or perhaps even an individual around Peshawar when you may not have the permission of the Pak authorities? (I'm thinking of the desire by the Pentagon to have 'Staring' and GORGON STARE type abilities appearing in recent .pdf's).

RQ-170 *appears* to be fairly new, but perhaps was rapidly developed at relatively low cost (by BIG SAFARI or RCO?), uses as much off-the-shelf as possible, and appears less sophisticated for those reasons.
 
I know, I know, its Abovetopsecret but.... http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread328636/pg1

THE CURRENT PROGRAMS HAD their start in a competition between Lockheed and Boeing for the National Reconnaissance Office's advanced airborne reconnaissance system (AARS). With intercontinental range and a 200-ft. wingspan that approached the size of a B-2 bomber, the UAVs would have cost an estimated $500 million each. Lockheed's offering in the competition with Boeing was code-named "Quartz." Quartz won, and Lockheed's Skunk Works and Boeing then competed for work share with the former winning sensors and fuselage and the latter taking on wings and flight controls.
Quartz was never completed, but a fuselage and one wing were built for testing, Air Force officials said. It was designed with alternative payload pods. One was a pilot's capsule so the aircraft could be flown by a crew, probably for long-range ferry flights and testing. The other was a reconnaissance pod for more dangerous unmanned reconnaissance missions.
But as the Cold War wound down and defense budgets started to shrink, defense planners continually demanded redesign of the program until the price of the AARS had been reduced to $200 million per copy. To reduce costs, stealth, sensor and materials technology had been inserted from General Dynamics/McDonnell-Douglas' A-12 Navy strike aircraft program which was canceled in January 1991.
But even with a 60% reduction in cost, the program was considered too rich for a post-Cold War world. According to congressional figures, about $1 billion had been spent on the project by late 1992 when it, along with most of the military's tactical reconnaissance programs, was finally canceled. A scaled-down, $150-million-a-copy version of Quartz, now named the Tier 3 UAV, was designed to loiter over a battlefield for days. But the services still didn't think they could afford the aircraft.
Finally, the program was divided into two parts. Projected aircraft price goals were set at $10 million each and development was begun in the unclassified world as Darpa's big-payload Tier 2+ and stealthy Tier 3- UAV programs.
 
Sounds pretty convincing to me. I wish there was a definite source though, to give it some authenticity.
 
Post #2 of 2: The Tier III .

Everything below is quoting from the Thesis as precisely as I can where it refers to Tier III:

(pg 153) The new administration conducted a “Bottom-Up Review” of military programs in 1993.... John Deutch came up with yet another nomenclature for rationalizing UAV development with the “Tier” system.

(pg 154/155) Although AARS had been cancelled in late 1992, Deutch considered a smaller, less capable AARS as Tier III, for it was the only platform that fully satisfied the JROC mission need statement of 1990. David Keir, who stayed with the program after its cancellation, revised his pitch for the big bird.... Tier III could be a survivable theatre asset.... Unlike satellites, Tier III would not have “national” intelligence tasking that got in the way.... Tier III provided a “staring eye”..... Kier developed several scaled-down versions.... Even these reportedly varied from $150 to $400 million per copy at which price the military reportedly might buy only four or five “silver bullet” models (Ref 349).... Since his bird had not yet entered flight testing, Keir fought an uphill battle. Although a 1993 Defence Science Board summer study commissioned by Deutch was directed to consider the big UAV, insiders say it was a foregone conclusion it would not be funded in its Tier III format (Ref 350)

(Ref 349 pg 155) For a 4 aircraft buy, production costs would be $600 million to $1.6 billion. These models were apparently scaled down to about 150 foot wingspan versions with limited sensor payloads....

(Ref 350 pg 155) …. The characterization of the summer study as being loaded against Tier III comes from two anonymous interviews, neither individual having vested interest in the Tier III program....


[mr_london_247: discussion of the political ramifications of trying to cancel Tier III here]

(pg 156).... Tier III did not go away gently. Congressman Norm Dicks from Washington State and other concerned lawmakers put serious pressure on DoD officials to keep the program alive....Even before Kier transformed the program into Tier III, ARSP officials teamed Boeing with Lockheed on the AARS program just as Boeing's grandiose Condor UAV program was terminated after development by DARPA (Ref 352).... Dicks and other interested lawmakers pushed hard for the revival of AARS as Tier III.... An official close to the situation remembered, “We felt all along Tier III was a non-starter, but there was lots of scrambling to accommodate congressional pressure”.... That scrambling resulted in yet another shrunken incarnation of AARS in order to placate Dicks.

(Ref 352 pg 156) Boeing was one of the companies who vied for the AARS contract in the early 1980's and had worked on their own version of AARS up to the point of their consolidation with Lockheed around 1990. Condor was essentially a technology demonstrator for Boeing's composite wing and body construction techniques, digital flight control and mission planning aspects of their AARS design....

(pg 157) Rather than reject Tier III outright.... Deutch and his advanced technology chief Larry Lynn.... opted to split the Tier III requirement in two, using the remaining AARS development money as a launching pad. They proposed a competition to for a non-stealthy high altitude, long-loiter aircraft called “Tier II plus”.... [Global Hawk].... and a severely chopped-down version of Tier III called “Tier III minus”.... [DarkStar] (Ref 354).... The sole-source contract for “Tier III minus” went to the Lockheed Skunk Works and Boeing team, who were not to compete for Tier II plus. Both programs.... with a stringent cost goal of 10 million per air vehicle.

(Ref 354 pg 157) Tier III was still a very secret project, probably still under the control of ARSP and the strict BYEMAN compartmented classification system of the NRO. The open use of the nomenclature “Tier II plus” and “Tier III minus” begged the question: What was Tier III?

(pg 157/158/159) …. AARS backers immediately attempted to drive the program back to the preferred Tier III format. A campaign waged by congressional and industry advocates focused on eliminating the non-stealthy Tier II plus program and folding it into one program unofficially called “Tier IV”. They wanted an open competition for Tier IV, one that the Boeing/Lockheed team felt confident of winning.... A DARPA official supporting the split program and obviously referring to AARS, said, “It has been shown over the last decade that a highly stealthy long endurance UAV with multi-mission requirements is not affordable.” Despite the pressure, Deutch and Lynn prevailed in keeping Tier II plus and Tier III minus.... The $100 million sole-source contract for Tier III minus served as a consolidation prize to mollify the powerful Dick coalition.... The transfer of Tier III minus management from the NRO to DARPA meant the days of the black, open ended UAV development that characterized the Cold War were over.

(pg 553) The requirement for stealthy, long-dwell reconnaissance is still on the books, and acting Secretary of the Air Force F. Whitten Peters, in a statement not weeks after DarkStar's cancellation [1999], stated that a classified Air Force project could “fill the niche” proposed for DarkStar.
 
seruriermarshal said:
So they used RQ-170 as AARS ?

Nope, so far the two seem to be unrelated.

mr_london_247 said:
Ah but thats just it isn't it: QUARTZ was one of the AARS vehicles but Tier III was quite a seperate and slightly later proposal under another study. That's what I've personally taken away from this doc. David Kier tried again to sell the same planform, but a bit smaller, slightly less capable, and most importantly: cheaper. I don't think I was clear on that previously, I was more or less viewing AARS as a single vehicle: the QUARTZ, and an AF version in my mind as probably the same vehicle but renamed: Tier III.

My previous post was responding/clarifying some things in the paper, rather than responding to your post ;)
Correct, and I think this may have lead to the author's confusion in some areas. As far as I have been able to tell, Tier III was the "flying clam" configuration of DarkStar, but QUARTZ was not (at all). Tier III was scaled down to Tier III-, but was not much like QUARTZ at all. Reading the paper, I think that the author may have taken interviews that were more about the Tier III vehicle than QUARTZ and confused the two.

The requirements were pretty much the same for all those vehicles though. High altitude, long persistence, very low signature. The actual numbers changed over time to things that were more realistic. DarkStar covered a much more narrow range of threat radar frequencies than QUARTZ did. The thinking was that if it was going to be up there for a long time, it would potentially be exposed to a very wide range of emitters.

mr_london_247 said:
My dear Quellish, surely we must know more on this? ;)

Not very much. High speed, intercontinental range. Supersonic cruise but it's not clear if it was manned or not.
 
mr_london_247 said:
This is an interesting point, as in a way the AARS mission exists again today: but now to find and track say a Toyota Hilux moving across the border from Iraq into Iran, or perhaps even an individual around Peshawar when you may not have the permission of the Pak authorities? (I'm thinking of the desire by the Pentagon to have 'Staring' and GORGON STARE type abilities appearing in recent .pdf's).

RQ-170 *appears* to be fairly new, but perhaps was rapidly developed at relatively low cost (by BIG SAFARI or RCO?), uses as much off-the-shelf as possible, and appears less sophisticated for those reasons.

Thanks , BIG SAFARI had their finger in the pie too ?

Posted on: Yesterday at 10:45:50 pmPosted by: quellish
Insert
Nope, so far the two seem to be unrelated.

then or RQ-170 used as a replace of Tier III ? there have China , Russia , Pak , Iran .
 
seruriermarshal said:
then or RQ-170 used as a replace of Tier III ? there have China , Russia , Pak , Iran .

So far the the 170 does not appear to fufill the Tier III requirements. It's more like something between Predator and Global Hawk - medium altitude, long endurance, LO but not broadband VLO.
 
quellish said:
seruriermarshal said:
then or RQ-170 used as a replace of Tier III ? there have China , Russia , Pak , Iran .

So far the the 170 does not appear to fufill the Tier III requirements. It's more like something between Predator and Global Hawk - medium altitude, long endurance, LO but not broadband VLO.

Thanks , Seems like Tier II , Tier II+ ?

:)
 
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