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Author Topic: Patriot SAM replacement  (Read 78621 times)

Offline bring_it_on

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Re: Patriot SAM replacement
« Reply #435 on: November 15, 2017, 05:03:10 pm »
Yes you could do something like that if that is more optimized for a given theater. THAAD isn't exactly cheap. If you can pair the MSE with the TPY-2 you really have a more cost effective and optimized shoot look shoot ability against the lower end threat. Integration is obviously going to go deeper than the initial awards and may at some point cover a dedicated launcher but the overall trend of "bringing in" the MSE into the THAAD fold is a positive step especially since IBCS is also going to be brought in.
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Offline marauder2048

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Re: Patriot SAM replacement
« Reply #436 on: November 15, 2017, 08:02:57 pm »
I don't doubt that as it's also a SAM.  What I question is it's effectiveness compared to PAC-3 MSE against the most difficult targets.  (Also you need a whole building to deploy it instead of a truck.  ;) )

IIRC, SM-6 might just be able to fit into the THAAD canisters length-wise.  And if they are looking to
accommodate a 21-inch diameter THAAD-ER...

But I completely agree with you on stressing targets. On the anti-surface
capability of SM-6, didn't PAC-2 have some capability in this regard?

Offline sferrin

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Re: Patriot SAM replacement
« Reply #437 on: November 16, 2017, 04:19:15 am »
IIRC, SM-6 might just be able to fit into the THAAD canisters length-wise.  And if they are looking to
accommodate a 21-inch diameter THAAD-ER...

THAAD-ER would use a new canister.  (And THAAD-ER would have far more ABM capability than SM-6.)

But I completely agree with you on stressing targets. On the anti-surface
capability of SM-6, didn't PAC-2 have some capability in this regard?

SM-6 is a really expensive way to kill a surface target, particularly a land target, when you could just use a GMLRS or ATACMs.  As far as PAC-2 having surface attack capability, I do not know.  If they wanted it they could probably get it but the US Army and USMC already have more suitable weapons for attacking land targets.
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Offline bring_it_on

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Re: Patriot SAM replacement
« Reply #438 on: November 16, 2017, 04:40:14 am »
The only area where the SM6 makes sense on the Patriot is for long range AAW given its all out range against air breathing targets. But that is still a pretty large and heavy missile vs more dedicated solutions such as scaling up the MSE or upgrading the GEM-Ts with a new seeker and perhaps a new motor.
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Offline bring_it_on

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Re: Patriot SAM replacement
« Reply #439 on: November 16, 2017, 05:19:36 am »
Ex. Bold Alligator 2017

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Offline Mark S.

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Re: Patriot SAM replacement
« Reply #440 on: November 16, 2017, 07:43:10 am »
Isn't the defended area for  a PAC-3 a lot less than for a THAAD? The SM-6 might be better match for this reason as a second shot for the ATBM role in THAAD batteries? 

Offline DrRansom

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Re: Patriot SAM replacement
« Reply #441 on: November 16, 2017, 07:47:00 am »
I think that the SM-6 is a S-400 emulator more than a PAC-3 MSE replacement. The Saudis have announced their interest in S-400s and there is no western land-based system that is equivalent to the 40N6. The SM-6, with booster, would get you closest to that capability.

But I don't think the SM-6 is the right solution. For one, it has a booster which complicates land use. For another, it isn't designed to fit the existing launchers.

The US Army has expressed interest in a low-cost long range interceptor. I wonder if one could be designed to fit a THAAD missile dimensions, but at a lower cost as it wont' be intended for point BMD.

Offline bring_it_on

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Re: Patriot SAM replacement
« Reply #442 on: November 16, 2017, 08:44:17 am »
Have to differentiate b/w integration with thaad and Patriot. From what I have heard the MSE and the PAC 2 just about max out the current sensor in terms of TBM envelope given the IAMD mission. For AAW there would be advantages with the SM6 on the Patriot but then there are more elegant ways to acheive that even for Raytheon.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 03:42:49 pm by bring_it_on »
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Offline bring_it_on

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Re: Patriot SAM replacement
« Reply #443 on: November 18, 2017, 03:42:04 pm »
Poland – Integrated Air and Missile Defense (IAMD) Battle Command System (IBCS)-enabled Patriot Configuration-3+ with Modernized Sensors and Components

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WASHINGTON, Nov. 17, 2017 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Poland for an Integrated Air and Missile Defense (IAMD) Battle Command System (IBCS)-enabled Patriot Configuration-3+ with Modernized Sensors and Components for an estimated cost of $10.5 billion.  The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on November 14, 2017.

The Government of Poland has requested to purchase phase one of a two- phase program for an Integrated Air and Missile Defense (IAMD) Battle Command System (IBCS)-enabled Patriot Configuration-3+ with Modernized Sensors and Components consisting of four (4) AN/MPQ-65 radar sets, four (4) engagement control stations, four (4) Radar Interface Units (RIU) modification kits, sixteen (16) M903 Launching stations adapted, eighteen (18) Launcher Integrated Network Kits (LINKs) (includes two (2) spares), two hundred and eight (208) Patriot Advanced Capabilty-3 (PAC-3) Missile Segment Enhancement (MSE) missiles, eleven (11) PAC-3 MSE test missiles, IBCS software, two (2) future operations – IBCS Engagement Operations Centers (EOCs), six (6) current operations-IBCS EOCs, six (6) engagement operations-IBCS EOCs, fifteen (15) Integrated Fire Control Network (IFCN relays, four (4) Electrical Power Plants (EPP) III, and five (5) Multifunctional Information Distribution Systems/Low Volume Terminals (MIDS/LVTs).  Also included with this request are communications equipment, tools and test equipment, range and test programs, support equipment, prime movers, generators, publications and technical documentation, training equipment, spare and repair parts, personnel training, Technical Assistance Field Team (TAFT), U.S. Government and contractor technical, engineering, and logistics support services, Systems Integration and Checkout (SICO), field office support, and other related elements of logistics and program support.  The total estimated program cost is $10.5 billion.

This proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security objectives of the United States by helping to improve the security of a NATO ally which has been, and continues to be an important force for political stability and economic progress in Europe.  This sale is consistent with U.S. initiatives to provide key allies in the region with modern systems that will enhance interoperability with U.S. forces and increase security.

Poland will use the IBCS-enabled Patriot missile system to improve its missile defense capability, defend its territorial integrity, and deter regional threats.  The proposed sale will increase the defensive capabilities of the Polish Military to guard against hostile aggression and shield the NATO allies who often train and operate within Poland’s borders.  Poland will have no difficulty absorbing this system into its armed forces.

The proposed sale of these missiles and equipment will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The prime contractors will be Raytheon Corporation in Andover, Massachusetts, Lockheed-Martin in Dallas, Texas, and Northrop Grumman in Falls Church, Virginia.  The purchaser requested offsets.  At this time, offset agreements are undetermined and will be defined in negotiations between the purchaser and contractors.

Implementation of this proposed sale will require approximately 42 U.S. Government and 55 contractor representatives to travel to Poland for an extended period for equipment de-processing/fielding, system checkout, training, and technical and logistics support.

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Offline bring_it_on

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Re: Patriot SAM replacement
« Reply #444 on: December 05, 2017, 12:21:16 pm »
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Offline bring_it_on

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Re: Patriot SAM replacement
« Reply #445 on: December 11, 2017, 09:01:53 am »
SMDC provides realistic threats for missile defense tests

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The U.S. Army Space and Missile Defense Command/Army Forces Strategic Command Technical Center's Test Execution Support Division successfully launch a Sabre Zombie target at the McGregor Range on Fort Bliss, Texas, into White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico, November 16, to provide a realistic threat ballistic missile target for use in testing advanced missile defense systems.
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REDSTONE ARSTENAL, Alabama -- One U.S. Army Space and Missile Defense Command/Army Forces Strategic Command team finds better ways for target testing.

Members of the USASMDC/ARSTRAT Technical Center, in support of the Program Executive Office Missiles and Space's Lower Tier Program Office, or LTPO, provided a realistic threat ballistic missile target for use in testing the Patriot Advanced Capability-3 Missile Segment Enhancement, or PAC-3 MSE, advanced missile defense systems.

"We had an excellent team executing this mission," said Kevin Creekmore, SMDC Test Execution Support Division, or TESD acting chief.

The TESD successfully launched a Sabre Zombie target at the McGregor Range on Fort Bliss, Texas, into White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico, November 16.

Creekmore said the target was provided in support of operational testing of the PAC-3 MSE. Preliminary results show the target met all performance objectives and allowed the Patriot system to demonstrate new capabilities that can be provided to the Warfighter. The target carried an on-board hit detection system which provides data to assess the effectiveness of the interceptor's lethality against targets of this class.

"The TESD mission is to provide end-to-end test planning, design, development, integration and test execution, as well as flexible launch platforms and unique low-cost target solutions," Creekmore said. "The Sabre Zombie target is another valuable assets in the low-cost suite of targets that provide solutions for integration missile defense developmental and operational testing, as well as foreign military sales applications.

"This mission was a repeat of a planned Sabre launch in June which was aborted due to an anomalous condition that occurred shortly before scheduled firing," he added. "Following an extensive anomaly investigation, actions were taken to correct the issue. Significant testing was performed to verify the correction which was further validated in the successful target launch."

Creekmore added that the mission was a challenge because it was the third mission supported by the same small team over the previous 12 months. It is a very small government and contractor team and required dedication from the team to support the multiple mission is a short timeframe.

"Throughout my eight-year career at SMDC, I have been a part of 10 ballistic missile flight tests. I have been fortunate enough to serve as the Target Test Director for the last two Sabre missions," said Christopher Cain Crouch, TESD general engineer. "That role is filled with excitement from the beginning of the five-hour countdown right up through the launch, but the most exciting part of the countdown is definitely when the clock hits zero. At launch, you feel the rumble underneath your feet, and your entire body trembles from the rocket motor vibration and the noise. That's the only place in the world where you can get that feeling. It's indescribable."

Crouch said the most important lesson he has learned from testing is that teamwork is critical to mission success.

"No matter how intelligent any one individual may be, he or she cannot launch a missile by themselves," he said. "Every mission is dependent on each team member performing his or her role to the best of their ability. I also believe that communication is key, and that teams can always improve communication processes. We can always improve our communication among our Government team, our contractors, the test range, and our customers.

"We have the most professional team I've ever been a part of," Crouch added. "Everyone on our team works extremely hard and will fill any role with absolutely no complaints. This is attributed to the extremely high-character individuals we have on this team and the leadership."

One team member said the mission was a complete success and they were very pleased with the performance achieved.

"We looked for actuator, fin and battery performance during this test. Everything worked great," said Stephanie Chrisley, TESD general engineer. "We learn something new with each flight test. We get better at performing our checks, build-up and mission execution but it also paves the way for product improvements, such as our two-stage missile.

Sabre is a low-cost target with a wide range of capabilities which can be used for a variety of scenarios and for a variety of customers," she added. "Flexible low-cost targets will allow the Army to test more often. Testing frequently helps us perfect each iteration of updates to our systems and ultimately helps the Warfighter."
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Offline sferrin

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Re: Patriot SAM replacement
« Reply #446 on: December 11, 2017, 09:34:33 am »
That looks more like a typical ATACMs than past Zombie shots.  (Wish I knew the particulars of that Zombie target missile.)

""We learn something new with each flight test. We get better at performing our checks, build-up and mission execution but it also paves the way for product improvements, such as our two-stage missile."

And THIS is why you test.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 09:37:07 am by sferrin »
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