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Author Topic: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects  (Read 83626 times)

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« on: July 14, 2006, 02:34:31 pm »
AMSA was said to stand for "America's Most Studied Aircraft" due to the length of time it took to get to flying hardware.

Quote
The USAF announcement of the airframe and engine contractors for the B-1 manned strategic bomber programme was scheduled for 28 May. Airframe finalists are Boeing, North American Rockwell, and General Dynamics, and power plant competitors are General Electric and Pratt & Whitney.

Flying Review International, July 1970

I'm sure I've seen a Lockheed AMSA design, and Doug Richardson's B-1 book has 3 AMSA designs that may be the Rockwell evolution, but what were Boeing and General Dynamics losing finalist submissions?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 03:46:37 pm by overscan »
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Offline TinWing

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2006, 06:34:55 pm »
Jay Miller's Lockheed Skunkworks history has drawings of 1968 and 1969 design studies.

Offline Matej

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2006, 03:40:43 am »
Picture here: http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/bombers1b.htm

I will look for more later.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2007, 09:36:33 am by Matej »

Bizarre aviation expert.

Offline fightingirish

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2006, 05:24:14 am »
Pictures here at Gatial Jozef site:
http://www.planespictures.com/index.php?c=6&t=1
Slán,
fightingirish

Slán ist an Irish Gaelic word for Goodbye.  :)

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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2006, 05:29:25 am »
Matej's page has a pic of a General Dynamics AMSA. So that leaves Boeing...

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Offline frank

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2006, 11:58:27 am »

   Wasn't Boeing's based on their 2707 SST?

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2006, 03:22:59 pm »
Got hold of the source for the General Dynamics AMSA pic.

Interesting parallels to their VG FX fighter project.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 03:26:11 pm by overscan »
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Offline pometablava

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2006, 03:32:26 pm »
Paul,

you can find this GD AMSA design at page 7, "The B-1 Bomber. Aero Series 35. William G. Holder. Aero (TAB Books Inc). ISBN 0-8306-8616-9"

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2006, 03:46:24 pm »
Indeed! Thats where I scanned it from :)
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Offline flateric

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2007, 11:15:53 am »
Also found at NTRS -timeframe (1966) suggest that it was LAMP-AMP-AMPSS program related. My previous thoughts of TFX were re-thought:)
Too late and unusual for TFX. Beat me if I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 11:55:31 am by flateric »
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Offline uk 75

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2007, 03:36:19 am »
Any chance of a three view drawing of the General Dynamics podded B1/AMSA proposal. I like this bird.

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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2007, 08:22:11 am »
Any chance of a three view drawing of the General Dynamics podded B1/AMSA proposal.
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Offline uk 75

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2007, 03:19:40 am »
Super Cereal

Love those GD B1s. Thanks v much.

Do you have similar for the North American pre-B1 podded designs or similar? Sorry for being greedy but I really love these early designs.

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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2007, 10:37:36 am »

Do you have similar for the North American pre-B1 podded designs or similar?

The one in the lower left is GD. The one in the middle is Boeing. All the others are North American. The one in upper right with many views is described in further detail here:
http://www.up-ship.com/Book/preview.htm

It's been many months since I've worked on my Bomber Projects drawings.... until a few days ago. I've ahd a *lot* of projects going at once, and I've had to focus on the ones that actually make money. But I've started drawing again. Finished up a Boeing AMSA design last night. Several more AMSA designs to go.
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Offline uk 75

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2007, 05:11:37 am »
Was leafing through some old mags at a plane show a few weeks ago and found a small drawing of what I assume to be an AMSA design. I did not buy the mag as it was part of a whole set of mags, but the picture was basically of a plane with an F111 type nose, a B52 mid fuselage and wings with podded engines a la B52, though it appeared to have a swing wing root. The tail was mid way between a B52H and an F111.  I have seen a similar drawing in an ad from the 1968 period for a US parts manufacturer.

I assume this was purely an artist's fantasy of what AMSA might turn out as, or did it reflect a real designer's initial ideas.

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Offline Skybolt

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2007, 10:35:35 am »
Seems the AW&ST artist impression of the LAMP (1964)

Offline pometablava

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2007, 11:45:18 am »
Skybolt,

What kind if project is the LAMP?

Thanks in advance

Antonio

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2007, 11:48:56 am »
Low Altitude Manned Penetrator
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Offline uk 75

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2007, 05:22:34 am »
Low Altitude Manned Penetrator (LAMP)

I am intrigued as I thought I knew all the 60s stuff.  Presumably this was a project that filled the time between the cancellation of the B70/RS70 and the AMSA.  Any pics/models/stuff?

Thanks again

UK 75

Offline Skybolt

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2007, 09:58:22 am »
There were half a dozen bomber (and similar) projects between the RS-70 (not XB-70) definitive cancellation and the AMSA.

Offline KJ_Lesnick

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2008, 01:08:49 pm »
The B-1A was capable of similar performance as the XB-70 in terms of range and high-altitude speed right? 

KJ Lesnick

Offline sferrin

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2008, 05:14:46 pm »
The B-1A was capable of similar performance as the XB-70 in terms of range and high-altitude speed right? 

KJ Lesnick

Not even close.  The XB-70 was a Mach 3 / 72,000 ft cruise aircraft where the B-1A's max speed (flown anyway) was Mach 2.22 and it supposedly had a 60,000 foot ceiling.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2008, 04:16:29 am »
And completely different mode of use: B-70 high-high-high, B-1A high-low-high, with a long low. The LAMP was similar, but the high phases would have been subsonic, and the low transonic. In the B-1A the incoming high would have been supersonic and the low transonic.

Offline Avimimus

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2008, 10:48:37 am »
The B-1A was capable of similar performance as the XB-70 in terms of range and high-altitude speed right? 

KJ Lesnick

Not even close.  The XB-70 was a Mach 3 / 72,000 ft cruise aircraft where the B-1A's max speed (flown anyway) was Mach 2.22 and it supposedly had a 60,000 foot ceiling.

I think thats pretty close... at least so far as most SAMs are concerned.

Offline flateric

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2008, 12:14:13 pm »
Stuff from 1971 NAR B-1 brochure
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stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2008, 12:17:47 pm »
'Look, dude, I believe it will fly, swear by my new tie!'
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stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2008, 04:03:21 pm »
Ah, '70's fashion. Glad I was too young to truly appreciate the horror of lime green polyesther leaisure suits....

Not to drag this too far off topic, but what the hell...

http://teamsugar.com/group/46813/blog/771943

http://www.plaidstallions.com/fashion.html

http://www.plaidstallions.com/lingerie/index.html

http://www.aperfectworld.org/page_one.html

http://retrocrush.buzznet.com/archive2004/catalog/

It was like Communists on acid were deciding what was fashionable. Shudder.
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Offline flateric

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2008, 10:13:46 am »
Unidentified AMSA concepts from Bill Holder's B-1 BOMBER (AERO SERIES VOL.35/TAB BOOKS, 1988) - second, revised edition.
Well, I'm pretty sure that Scott has 'shazamm' stuff ready...seems that last one is depicted in his B-1 collection (North American D436-21?)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 10:23:42 am by flateric »
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Offline Just call me Ray

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2008, 10:34:12 am »
I hope I'm not the only one who recognizes the configuration of the first one in the above post:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_XB-51
It's a crappy self-made pic of a Lockheed Unmanned Combat Armed Rotorcraft (UCAR), BTW
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Offline uk 75

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2008, 06:18:03 am »
I am intrigued by the podded designs. The line drawing does not match the
artist's impression. Does anyone know anything more about these designs?

UK 75

Offline Skybolt

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2008, 06:29:18 am »
Scott...

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2008, 03:12:30 pm »
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2008, 04:48:24 am »
i read in Wiki or worst saw it on History Channel

story about that some of SST projects of Boeing, MDD, Lockheed.
end up as  B-1 proposals

is this true or just a urban Legend ?
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Offline pometablava

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2008, 05:05:23 am »
The Boeing B-2707 was considered as an alternative to the B-1 project.

Offline Michel Van

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2008, 07:37:28 am »
The Boeing B-2707 was considered as an alternative to the B-1 project.
Wow
the Boeing 2707-200 Model ?
but they have to make heavy modification on 2707 to be a Bomber

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Offline lark

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2008, 09:40:49 am »
Is there someone who can show us a drawing of the
unbuilt fixed wing variant of the B-1 ?
Thanks in advance.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Offline pometablava

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2008, 01:42:01 pm »
Quote
but they have to make heavy modification on 2707 to be a Bomber

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2887.0/highlight,air%20progress.html

Look at reply number 2

also...

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1282.0/highlight,sst%20usaf.html

From Air Progress June 1967:
Quote
J. S. Butz, Jr., aviation engineer and technical writer said the SST would make a better bomber than the AF's proposed AMSA. Only slight modifications would be needed. Wings and fuselage have to be beefed up. Fuselage could be slimmed down, improving range and speed without sacrificing payload. Unrefueled range is around 8000 mi, with inflight refueling it could easely haul a 75000 lb payload over an 8000 mi range. The SST flying high will be easy to "see" by enemy air defense,  but hitting it won't be as easy flying at Mach 2.7. Consensus among AF and industry experts is that the SST no doubt could be converted into a bomber. All in all, say some experts, it's far better - even if it costs more in dollars - to design a new bomber specifically for that role than to adapt a plane intended for another purpose


Offline lark

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2008, 02:34:11 pm »
Thanks Pome.. I'm gettin' older ::)

Offline lark

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2008, 02:36:24 pm »
And Overscan of course... (it's not my day)

Offline Michel Van

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2008, 03:51:18 am »
zillions thanks pometablava

so its the Boeing 2707-200
but that plane is far more complex and expensive as the Rockwell B-1 proposal
like the needs of C-5  Airtanker for refuel
and even if B-2707 can attack Soviet union with mach 2.7 in high altitude
there MiG-25 Mach 3.2 to intercept the SAC Bomber
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Offline Pyrrhic victory

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2009, 02:16:53 pm »
B-1A prototype in 1981 with theoretical load outs for the upcoming B-1B program.

Which one of these is not like the other?

Offline Firefly 2

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2009, 05:10:35 pm »
Phoenix???? ???

Offline Apollo Leader

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2009, 11:46:36 pm »
I remember reading in Aerofax's book on the B-1 that there was a Navy version that Rockwell had proposed that was supposed to be capable of carrying a bunch of AIM-54's.
Richard

Offline frank

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2009, 05:15:28 am »

       Sometime in the early '80s I saw in AW & ST there was a B-1C proposed for ADC, a long range interceptor, that would use the F-14's radar & have Phoenixes in the weapons bay(s).


Phoenix???? ???

Offline KJ_Lesnick

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2009, 06:08:08 pm »
Frank,

Quote
Sometime in the early '80s I saw in AW & ST there was a B-1C proposed for ADC, a long range interceptor, that would use the F-14's radar & have Phoenixes in the weapons bay(s).

That would have been impressive

Offline quellish

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2009, 07:59:19 pm »
B-1A prototype in 1981 with theoretical load outs for the upcoming B-1B program.

Which one of these is not like the other?

Seeing a B-1B outfitted with ACMs on the external hardpoints... now that's impressive. I wish they would bring the hardpoints back!

Offline TomS

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2009, 08:11:42 am »
Seeing a B-1B outfitted with ACMs on the external hardpoints... now that's impressive. I wish they would bring the hardpoints back!

They have, sort of.  The B-1s with Sniper pods are carrying them on one of the external hardpoints.  Other than that, though, it's not like the B-1 is short on carrying capacity using the internal bays.


Offline SOC

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2009, 08:24:47 am »
Hardpoints were deleted to reduce the number of warheads they could be accounted for under START (I was on an inspection team at a B-1B base once, we got to learn all about the START stuff on the airframe so we knew what the Russians would be looking for-forward bay bulkhead had to be locked in the center position as well, to disallow CSRL/ALCM carriage).  Since they've been de-nuked, I don't see why they couldn't bring them back.  START's about to expire anyway.

Offline Dynoman

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2009, 08:37:45 am »
AMPSS - Advanced Manned Precision Strike System
Baseline Configuration and Parametric Study

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=AD365474&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

Courtesy of DTIC

Offline flateric

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2009, 03:00:01 pm »
THE B-1B BOMBER: A PROGRAM HISTORY
by
Kiran R. Magiawala
Ph.D. (Aero), California Institute of
Technology (1978)
M.S.(Aero), California Institute of
Technology (1974)
M.Tech.(Aero), Indian Institute of
Technology, Kanpur, India (1973)
B.E.(Mech), Gujarat University,
Ahmedabad, India (1971)
SUBMITTED TO THE DEPARTMENT OF
AERONAUTICS AND ASTRONAUTICS IN
PARTIAL FULFILLMENT OF THE
REQUIREMENTS FOR THE DEGREE OF
MASTER OF SCIENCE IN TECHNOLOGY AND POLICY at the MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
February 1988

http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/34036/19283648.pdf?sequence=1
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 03:07:08 pm by flateric »
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Offline Colonial-Marine

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2009, 03:17:56 pm »
Hardpoints were deleted to reduce the number of warheads they could be accounted for under START (I was on an inspection team at a B-1B base once, we got to learn all about the START stuff on the airframe so we knew what the Russians would be looking for-forward bay bulkhead had to be locked in the center position as well, to disallow CSRL/ALCM carriage).  Since they've been de-nuked, I don't see why they couldn't bring them back.  START's about to expire anyway.

As much as I love the B-1 from an aesthetics and design point of view, perhaps they don't have enough airframe hours left on them to make such an upgrade worth it when you consider the extra weight it would be carrying. Despite the B-1Bs critics, they have sure seen plenty of use over the past 8 years.

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Offline AeroFranz

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2009, 03:21:47 pm »
Grigoriy,

Quote
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/34036/19283648.pdf?sequence=1
can you open the link? it tells me the file is damaged :(
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Offline flateric

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2009, 03:23:50 pm »
yep, without problems - just have checked it
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Offline Steve Pace

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2009, 03:27:43 pm »
I had to save it to my desktop, then open it.
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Offline quellish

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2009, 05:32:22 pm »
Hardpoints were deleted to reduce the number of warheads they could be accounted for under START (I was on an inspection team at a B-1B base once, we got to learn all about the START stuff on the airframe so we knew what the Russians would be looking for-forward bay bulkhead had to be locked in the center position as well, to disallow CSRL/ALCM carriage).  Since they've been de-nuked, I don't see why they couldn't bring them back.  START's about to expire anyway.

A B-1B fully loaded with CBU-105 (WCMD/SFW) in both the internal bay and external hardpoints would be a very formidable way to stop an armored invasion.

Offline Steve Pace

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2009, 05:40:48 pm »
Has anyone seen a B-1B with ordnance attached to external hard points? I for one have not. And I wrote a WARBIRD HISTORY book on it.
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Offline Triton

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2009, 06:04:39 pm »
Has anyone seen a B-1B with ordnance attached to external hard points? I for one have not. And I wrote a WARBIRD HISTORY book on it.

Only in artist's conceptions of the proposed B-1R, R for "Regional", and the video depiction of this proposed aircraft in "Future Dogfights" on the History Channel.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6287.0/highlight,b-1r.html
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 06:07:48 pm by Triton »

Offline Just call me Ray

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2009, 07:50:00 pm »
Oh man I was just watching that not 40 minutes ago. Talk about an active imagination!
It's a crappy self-made pic of a Lockheed Unmanned Combat Armed Rotorcraft (UCAR), BTW
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Offline aim9xray

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2009, 07:57:17 pm »
Has anyone seen a B-1B with ordnance attached to external hard points? I for one have not. And I wrote a WARBIRD HISTORY book on it.
Well, page 91 of your book has a photo of 85-0068 with the external AGM-129 semi-conformal pylons on those hardpoints.

Offline Steve Pace

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2009, 08:07:28 pm »
You noticed. Thanks so much!
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Offline quellish

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2009, 09:10:03 pm »
Has anyone seen a B-1B with ordnance attached to external hard points? I for one have not. And I wrote a WARBIRD HISTORY book on it.
Well, page 91 of your book has a photo of 85-0068 with the external AGM-129 semi-conformal pylons on those hardpoints.
I have. One book on the B-1 had an extensive set of photos, a quick search in Amazon did not find it though. I'll look around for it, though I won't be able to scan them any time soon.

Offline aim9xray

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2009, 09:21:17 pm »
That would probably be Don Logan's "B-1B, SAC's Last Bomber" published by Schiffer.  Page 51 has three color in-flight photos and there is text across four pages describing the AGM-129 Advanced Cruise Missile integration effort.

Offline quellish

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2009, 09:35:31 pm »
That would probably be Don Logan's "B-1B, SAC's Last Bomber" published by Schiffer.  Page 51 has three color in-flight photos and there is text across four pages describing the AGM-129 Advanced Cruise Missile integration effort.

I believe you are correct, though my quick look through the big box of fun didn't turn the book up where it should be.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2009, 01:13:11 am »
Has anyone seen a B-1B with ordnance attached to external hard points? I for one have not. And I wrote a WARBIRD HISTORY book on it.

 :o Are you trying to tell us that the Warbird Tech books are not DEFINITIVE?  :-\ That somehow there can be omissions?  That is an awfully disappointing piece of news... ;D  ;)

Offline Steve Pace

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2009, 05:32:18 am »
Apparently mine was not because Specialty Press hasn't sold it for years. It was published in 1998 as BOEING NORTH AMERICAN B-1 LANCER, Volume 19.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 07:07:12 am by XB-70 Guy »
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Offline XP67_Moonbat

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2009, 09:24:58 am »
Good read. Bought mine in Dubai.
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Offline Steve Pace

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2009, 09:39:15 am »
Thanks!

SP
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Offline Steve Pace

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #68 on: December 10, 2009, 09:51:36 am »
Has anyone seen a B-1B with ordnance attached to external hard points? I for one have not. And I wrote a WARBIRD HISTORY book on it.
Well, page 91 of your book has a photo of 85-0068 with the external AGM-129 semi-conformal pylons on those hardpoints.

That was only a test - never put into any operational mission(s).
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Offline Meteorit

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2009, 10:57:29 am »
I think I got this picture from the Key Publishing forums a few years back.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2009, 02:33:36 am »
Most secret projects-related docs suddenly appearing on places like DTIC derive from FOIA request submitted with considerable effort and expense by researchers. One example is the AMPSS GD doc linked in a previous post of this topic. DTIC administration at times puts immediately online FOIA-released docs, spoiling the work done by researchers, that naturally hope to use the info they gather to publish books, articles, etc. This has already been said in other cases like this, but it is worth repeating: please, if you find a FOIA-released doc suddenly published on public access sites, keep it for yourselves, at least for a while. Or, if you are a Senior Member and want to share your discovery, post it in the Private Discussions section. This is not a try at secluding information, only a sign of courtesy to fellow researchers.... Hope you all understand.

Offline Steve Pace

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2009, 03:08:19 pm »
Here's an "Oldie but a Goodie."
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Offline Triton

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2010, 02:28:30 pm »
Rockwell B-1 bomber concept artwork found on eBay. Note how the aft section under the tail looks different than the production version.

URL: http://cgi.ebay.com/ROCKWELL-B-1-NUCLEAR-BOMBER-ORIGINAL-CONCEPT-ART_W0QQitemZ110512333045QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19bb0c60f5

Seller's description
Quote
B-1 BOMBER CONCEPT ART from ROCKWELL N.AMERICAN AVIATION.

Original art work produced at North American Rockwell to promote the first B-1 Nuclear Bomber. This is a  aircraft that was conceived for the cold war and now just has to do a low buzz job to scare the H&*% out of any insurgents.  If you love fast sleek aircraft that packs a powerful punch, this is a historic work of original one of a kind art that you can be proud to display and preserve for future generations.   22"x18"

 Added from “Found on Ebay” thread
 
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 08:21:06 am by Jemiba »

Offline Triton

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #73 on: July 26, 2010, 11:17:12 pm »
From the San Diego Air and Space Museum Archive.

Source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4555985957
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 07:45:59 pm by Triton »

Offline RanulfC

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #74 on: July 27, 2010, 06:18:44 am »
Also found at NTRS -timeframe (1966) suggest that it was LAMP-AMP-AMPSS program related. My previous thoughts of TFX were re-thought:)
Too late and unusual for TFX. Beat me if I'm wrong.
Flateric:

Interesting pivot-wing design, any chance you have the report number you got it from?
(I'm ALWAYS interested in seeing what ideas there are out there for pivot-wings :)

Randy

Offline flateric

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #75 on: July 27, 2010, 08:45:09 am »
now it's clear that it's not AMSA-related

http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19660030316
Title:    Stability and control characteristics at Mach numbers of 1.41 and 2.20 of a multimission STOL airplane configuration with a variable-skew wing
Author(s):    Foster, G. V.
Abstract:    Stability and control characteristics at Mach numbers of 1.41 and 2.20 of multimission STOL AIRPLANE configuration with variable-skew wing
NASA Center:    Langley Research Center
Publication Date:    May 1, 1963
Document Source:   CASI
Online Source:   View PDF File
Document ID:    19660030316
Accession ID:    66N39606
Publication Information:   Number of Pages = 69
Report Number:    NASA-TM-X-812
Price Code:   A04
Keywords:    ANGLE OF ATTACK; BODY-WING CONFIGURATIONS; MACH NUMBER; SHORT TAKEOFF AIRCRAFT; STABILITY; SUPERSONIC SPEED; WINGS; BODY-WING COMBINATION; STABILITY AND CONTROL; STOL AIRCRAFT; SUPERSONIC SPEED;

http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19720065639
Title:    Aerodynamic characteristics at Mach numbers from 1.70 to 2.86 of a STOL model with a variable-skew wing
Author(s):    Spearman, M. L.; Finch, V. M.
Abstract:   No Abstract Available
NASA Center:    Langley Research Center
Publication Date:    Jan 1, 1964
Document Source:   CASI
Online Source:   View PDF File
Document ID:    19720065639
Accession ID:    72N73511
Publication Information:   Number of Pages = 21
Report Number:    L-3451; NASA-TM-X-903
Price Code:   A03
Keywords:    LATERAL STABILITY; LONGITUDINAL STABILITY; SHORT TAKEOFF AIRCRAFT; VARIABLE GEOMETRY STRUCTURES; SUPERSONIC FLOW;
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 08:48:05 am by flateric »
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Offline uk 75

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #76 on: November 20, 2010, 03:40:05 am »
For all enthusiasts or just those interested in the AMSA/B1 saga I can recommend the new Tony Buttler book on US Bomber secret projects with its wonderful photos of the various manufacturer's models.  The book also explains that much material on the various proposals at the early stages of the
evolution of the project has been destroyed.

Unfortunately the book does not add any more info on the twin podded engine version pictured in one of the drawings posted earlier on the site.

Offline uk 75

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #77 on: November 20, 2010, 03:43:07 am »
Sorry I should have given the ref, I meant the second pic in flateric's contrbution of
12 September 2008.  I have seen this drawing in some old 60s magazines and it must
have been a USAF initial idea rather than a manufactuer's.  Hence the weird combination
of F-111 and B-52.

Offline fightingirish

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2011, 07:19:50 am »
From Flug-Revue May 1972, page 74 & 75
Slán,
fightingirish

Slán ist an Irish Gaelic word for Goodbye.  :)

Avatar:
McDonnell Douglas Model 225 painting by "The Artist" Michael Burke (Tavush) 2018, found at deviantart.com and at Secret Projects Forum » Research Topics » User Artwork » McDonnell Douglas Model 225 Painting

Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2011, 12:07:19 am »
Here are some colour pictures of the B-1B fitted with ACM pylons discussed earlier in this thread.
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Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #80 on: April 17, 2011, 12:24:17 am »
Not quite a “secret project” but rather a “secret paintjob”. I’ve being trying to track this down after reading about it online a few years ago. The proposed B-1B Two Tone or ‘Killer Whale’ camouflage pattern. Combines dark and pale grey for camouflage effect while retaining protection against flash and heat from a nuclear explosion. The pale grey segments covered heat sensitive areas of the aircraft and would work like an all-white ‘anti-flash’ coating common in nuclear bombers of the 50s and 60s.
"There is a tendency in our planning to confuse the unfamiliar with the improbable." Thomas Schelling

Offline Johnbr

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #81 on: April 17, 2011, 02:31:01 pm »
Thanks for the photos and info.

Offline ouroboros

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2011, 06:25:40 am »
Here are some colour pictures of the B-1B fitted with ACM pylons discussed earlier in this thread.

Is it just me, or are the bomb bay doors not able to fully open because the ACM is in the way? And I wonder what those protrusions on the starboard engine pod are? Covers for cameras or test sensors, or some other kind of secondary equipment?

Offline pedal

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2011, 06:57:42 am »
Wouldn't of been a problem, external ACM were fired first at some distance, Racks then ejected, before descending to low Alt for its SRAM run (or more ACM from distance)

Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2011, 07:00:07 am »
Is it just me, or are the bomb bay doors not able to fully open because the ACM is in the way? And I wonder what those protrusions on the starboard engine pod are? Covers for cameras or test sensors, or some other kind of secondary equipment?

The bomb bay doors are opened wide enough to drop stores from the rotary launchers. They could not use the bomb rack launchers for dumb bombs with the pylons fitted. But it is very unlikely that a mission would mix cruise missiles and dumb bombs so this wouldn't be a problem. Not that the B-B ever carried the pylons after testing anyway. The engine bay pods are camera pods for recording weapon release.
"There is a tendency in our planning to confuse the unfamiliar with the improbable." Thomas Schelling

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2011, 12:59:53 pm »
Referring back to post # 79, and the B-1B Two Tone "Killer Whale" scheme, are there any details as to the precise colours used (ie FS numbers perhaps) other than the drawing's "Pale Gray" and "Dark Gray"?

Duncan
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 01:01:32 pm by Overkiller »

Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2011, 01:46:25 pm »
Referring back to post # 79, and the B-1B Two Tone "Killer Whale" scheme, are there any details as to the precise colours used (ie FS numbers perhaps) other than the drawing's "Pale Gray" and "Dark Gray"?

Nope and the same source mentions the FS numbers for the actual three tone paint scheme used on the B-1B. So I guess the two tone scheme was never developed far enough for precise shade allocation.
"There is a tendency in our planning to confuse the unfamiliar with the improbable." Thomas Schelling

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #87 on: April 18, 2011, 02:24:27 pm »
Referring back to post # 79, and the B-1B Two Tone "Killer Whale" scheme, are there any details as to the precise colours used (ie FS numbers perhaps) other than the drawing's "Pale Gray" and "Dark Gray"?

Nope and the same source mentions the FS numbers for the actual three tone paint scheme used on the B-1B. So I guess the two tone scheme was never developed far enough for precise shade allocation.

Thank you.

Offline aim9xray

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #88 on: April 18, 2011, 02:51:22 pm »
While that color scheme did not make it onto the aircraft, it was the default scheme for the first Airfix 1/72nd scale model release of the B-1B.  I *think* that the specified colors were Light and Dark Ghost Gray - but the light gray on the boxtop looks to be lighter.  Perhaps you could hit up one of the modeling forums to see if anyone has the painting instructions (I don't have one in the kit stash; one look in the box convinced me that it placed third in a two-horse race.)

Overkiller

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2011, 11:01:02 pm »
While that color scheme did not make it onto the aircraft, it was the default scheme for the first Airfix 1/72nd scale model release of the B-1B.  I *think* that the specified colors were Light and Dark Ghost Gray - but the light gray on the boxtop looks to be lighter.  Perhaps you could hit up one of the modeling forums to see if anyone has the painting instructions (I don't have one in the kit stash; one look in the box convinced me that it placed third in a two-horse race.)

Thank you, I'll make some enquiries on the modelling forums. I kept thinking I had seen that particular scheme on the box of a model...somewhere...I just couldn't remember where I had seen it before.

Duncan

Offline Nico

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #90 on: July 24, 2011, 06:12:15 am »
Looking around for interesting pictures of the development of B-1 I found this cardboard bi-dimensional mock-up of the B-1A (depicted together with the escape module model)
Nico

Offline Triton

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #91 on: July 25, 2011, 10:44:15 am »
Advanced Manned Strategic Aircraft (AMSA) concept. Source does not specify manufacturer.

Source:
http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Arts/Art3586.htm
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 11:22:54 am by Triton »

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #92 on: July 25, 2011, 01:39:50 pm »
If I didn't know better, I'd say it has a definite Martin look to it... but Martin had ceased submitting aircraft designs for about over five years at the time of the AMSA competition. Doesn't really look like any of the AMSA proposals we've seen in this thread so far.

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #93 on: July 26, 2011, 04:02:45 am »
If I didn't know better, I'd say it has a definite Martin look to it... but Martin had ceased submitting aircraft designs for about over five years at the time of the AMSA competition. Doesn't really look like any of the AMSA proposals we've seen in this thread so far.

Maybe Martin was acting as a design consultant/sub-contractor for some other company trying to enter the market?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 05:13:01 am by Grey Havoc »
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Offline Nico

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #94 on: August 08, 2011, 10:25:30 am »
I Gents,
in the same series of negs in my archives that already gave me the sketches of LARA/COIN proposals from some ads published on 'Aviation Week' on late sixties early seventies - that I already posted in this forum - I found also that one I enclose: we can see (partially) a sketch of what seems to me a copy of a generic USAF artist's impression (but remembers also a Republic configuration) of the F-15 and, in foreground, what is simply labelled 'B-1': in your opinion it is another generic USAF impression of a 'could-be B-1' or could be inspired from a real proposal?


Nico

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Offline circle-5

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #96 on: August 08, 2011, 03:47:49 pm »
Here is a North American AMSA factory model, with two engines in the rear and one under each apex surface. Every time the wings pivot, each bomb rack needs to pivot in the opposite direction to stay aligned with the fight path. The F-111 had eight such pivoting hard points as well, IIRC.  (Model photo © by Chad Slattery)

A 3-view drawing of this concept was posted by flateric almost 4 years ago, here.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 07:54:52 am by circle-5 »

Offline archipeppe

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #97 on: August 09, 2011, 01:18:07 am »
I Gents,
in the same series of negs in my archives that already gave me the sketches of LARA/COIN proposals from some ads published on 'Aviation Week' on late sixties early seventies - that I already posted in this forum - I found also that one I enclose: we can see (partially) a sketch of what seems to me a copy of a generic USAF artist's impression (but remembers also a Republic configuration) of the F-15 and, in foreground, what is simply labelled 'B-1': in your opinion it is another generic USAF impression of a 'could-be B-1' or could be inspired from a real proposal?


Nico

Dear Nico,
 
the bomber represented seems to be in "convair-ish" style, could it be some B-58IM derivative from General Dynamics of mid-60's?

Offline uk 75

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #98 on: August 12, 2011, 05:54:40 am »
Aha
 
My favourite drawing of the B1 run up. It is in fact not a manufacturers drawing but a US
Air Force artists impression based very loosely on the F-111 (notice the F-111 style cockpit ejection system) and an indicative podded design (again possibly derived from a Convair design).
If you look closely, apart from the pods it is nothing like the North American model in the cockpit
or wing configuration.  A fuller picture of the same plane is posted in an earlier thread. I will try and get the ref and post it here.
 
UK 75

Offline uk 75

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #99 on: August 12, 2011, 05:56:20 am »
It was back on thread line 2

Offline circle-5

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #100 on: August 13, 2011, 06:24:39 pm »
AMSA desk model (1967 vintage) from North American Aviation's Los Angeles Divison. Wearing exhaust plugs was obviously fashionable at the time.

(Model photo © by Chad Slattery)

A 3-view drawing of this concept was posted by flateric almost 2 years ago, here.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 06:27:25 pm by circle-5 »

Offline circle-5

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #101 on: August 17, 2011, 08:29:16 am »
AMSA desk model (1968 vintage) from North American Aviation's Los Angeles Divison.

(Model photo © by Chad Slattery)

Offline sferrin

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #102 on: August 17, 2011, 08:35:08 am »
AMSA desk model (1967 vintage) from North American Aviation's Los Angeles Divison. Wearing exhaust plugs was obviously fashionable at the time.

(Model photo © by Chad Slattery)

A 3-view drawing of this concept was posted by flateric almost 2 years ago, here.

Plugs are still "fashionable" for non-afterburning engines when geometry permits.  (See airliner engines for example.)
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Offline circle-5

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #103 on: August 17, 2011, 11:41:07 am »
Another view of the North American AMSA (1967 model year). Question for sferrin: does the presence of exhaust plugs indicate this was a subsonic design (no afterburners)?

(Model photo © by Chad Slattery)

A 3-view drawing of this concept was posted by flateric almost 2 years ago, here.

Offline fightingirish

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #104 on: August 17, 2011, 12:59:19 pm »
No, that design is supersonic. The Tu-144 has also exhaust plugs.
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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #105 on: August 17, 2011, 01:43:16 pm »
Another view of the North American AMSA (1967 model year).

NAA D458-13D
 
Quote
does the presence of exhaust plugs indicate this was a subsonic design (no afterburners)?

Nope. It had four 105%-scale GE1/9F7B-34 engines, permitting a Mach 2.2 penetration range, with a total mission range (the rest being subsonic) of 2500 n.m.
 
Rather than the more usual "turkey feathers," this engine used a fixed plug and a retractable shroud, which deployed above Mach 1.4.
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Offline circle-5

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #106 on: August 17, 2011, 05:04:29 pm »
Thanks to OBB for the data on the NAA D458-13D AMSA. It's always good to know these things.

The attached model photo shows a subsonic study of AMPSS, by North American Aviation, Los Angeles Division. I know this because Subsonic AMPSS is printed in gold letters on the base (which makes it official  :) ).

However, as a non-aerodynamicist, I don't understand how a subsonic airplane could benefit from such a radical wing sweep angle (95 deg., perhaps?)

(Model photo © by Chad Slattery)

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #107 on: August 17, 2011, 05:31:12 pm »
I don't understand how a subsonic airplane could benefit from such a radical wing sweep angle

It wouldn't. There was a mistake somewhere... either in making the ID plate, or in putting that particular model on that particular stand. This type of tucked-in wing was studied for a number of aircraft back in the mid 60's, and it was always for high supersonic cruise (Mach 2+)
 
PS: Don't have anything on this specific design, but it looks like an earlier vehicle. A similar design, the D436-21, was an intermediate basepoint, just prior to the D458-13D, looked much the same except the engine nozzles were all the way at the tail and had the narrow plugs... same over-swept wing, with a Mach 2.2 cruise for 1500 n.m. (2500 n.m. total).
 
There were a number of subsonic designs studied for AMPSS; except for some goofy Lokheed concepts, they were pretty standard subsonic-bombery-lookin', as far as I can tell.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 05:37:00 pm by Orionblamblam »
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Offline circle-5

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #108 on: August 17, 2011, 10:08:07 pm »

It wouldn't. There was a mistake somewhere... either in making the ID plate, or in putting that particular model on that particular stand.

So this model could be on the wrong stand? Gosh... this has never happened before. Attached is another view of the supersonic subsonic AMPSS by North American Aviation, with wings in mid-sweep.

(Model photo © by Chad Slattery)

Offline circle-5

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #109 on: August 17, 2011, 10:16:26 pm »
And here's another AMPSS model from North American Aviation (Los Angeles Division), with three engines and a delta wing. It's clearly marked Supersonic AMPSS, which is probably correct.

(Model photo © by Chad Slattery)

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #110 on: August 17, 2011, 11:46:19 pm »
It's clearly marked Supersonic AMPSS, which is probably correct.

Yes. NAA proposed that the prototype for this particular configuration be built from a hacked-apart XB-70 (possibly the never-finished #3, but that's speculation)
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Offline circle-5

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #111 on: August 19, 2011, 09:53:58 pm »
And another variant of NAA's AMPSS, from the Los Angeles Division model shop. Not to be confused with the earlier supersonic AMPSS on the subsonic stand, this one is larger, with staggered engine quartet at the rear and wider wing pivot spacing, among other differences.

(Model photos © by Chad Slattery)

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #112 on: August 21, 2011, 06:48:20 pm »
A low rez version of this was posted before, but here's a higher rez. A higher-rez-yet version is at my blog:
http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=11430
 
Also attached is a blowup of the "subsonic" model. And it actually does seem to say "subsonic." A few possible explanations:
1: Circle-5 actually has this model, which was mislabeled
2: NAA made a number of mis-labeled models
3: This was actually meant to be subsonic
 1& 2 look less likely now, but #3 just seems silly.
 
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #113 on: August 21, 2011, 07:40:11 pm »
This type of tucked-in wing was studied for a number of aircraft back in the mid 60's, and it was always for high supersonic cruise (Mach 2+)

I remember seeing TFX proposals with wings like that.

Offline circle-5

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #114 on: August 21, 2011, 10:05:07 pm »
A low rez version of this was posted before, but here's a higher rez. A higher-rez-yet version is at my blog:
http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=11430
 
Also attached is a blowup of the "subsonic" model. And it actually does seem to say "subsonic." A few possible explanations:
1: Circle-5 actually has this model, which was mislabeled
2: NAA made a number of mis-labeled models
3: This was actually meant to be subsonic
 1& 2 look less likely now, but #3 just seems silly.

The final AMSA development (the B-1B) has an impressive VG wing design, yet its mission is typically subsonic, with only marginal supersonic capability.  I don't feel these characteristics need to be mutually exclusive, although the Subsonic AMPSS is indeed a bit much.

I only know of one example each of the models featured here, but if others appear with the same subsonic stand, then we'll definitely know it's subsonic. Even if initially mis-labeled, such models would have never made it into NAA PR and historical photographs without correction.

Attached is a rarely seen rear view of the big NAA AMPSS VG model, showing its unusual engine arrangement and gullwing appearance.

(Model photo © by Chad Slattery)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 11:09:35 pm by circle-5 »

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #115 on: August 22, 2011, 12:31:14 am »
The final AMSA development (the B-1B) has an impressive VG wing design, yet its mission is typically subsonic, with only marginal supersonic capability.

Yes, but the B-1*A* was designed to go balls-out. The design the B-1B inheirited was a fast mover that had been governed down by stealth requirements.
 
 
Quote
I don't feel these characteristics need to be mutually exclusive, although the Subsonic AMPSS is indeed a bit much.

The extreme sweepback is only useful for multi-Mach speeds. So the best I can figure for this being a "subsonic" design was that it was intended to sneak in subsonically, then fold up and dash over the target, then wander on out again. otherwise the design really doesn't seem to make sense.

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Offline Sundog

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #116 on: August 22, 2011, 11:17:43 am »
The extreme sweepback is only useful for multi-Mach speeds. So the best I can figure for this being a "subsonic" design was that it was intended to sneak in subsonically, then fold up and dash over the target, then wander on out again. otherwise the design really doesn't seem to make sense.

What about for high speed NOE flight? Ride quality would definitely be a consideration for the crew and sensor systems. Granted, wing loading remains the same, but the load distribution changes, since the area is now down the fuselage, instead of laterally where I think it would be more sensitive to gust loading. Although, I haven't seen much with regard to differing wing configurations and their stability repsonses to gust loading, etc., this could be a reason for VG of a subsonic aircraft. It was obviously a serious consideration for the program, gust response, as witnessed by the load alleviating canards on the B-1.

Offline Weapons Loader

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #117 on: August 24, 2011, 12:15:17 pm »
Quote
Is it just me, or are the bomb bay doors not able to fully open because the ACM is in the way? And I wonder what those protrusions on the starboard engine pod are? Covers for cameras or test sensors, or some other kind of secondary equipment?

Hello all, I worked B-1Bs at Dyess AFB, TX from 2002 to 2008. I saw this topic and had to chime in. Good info on the very early B-1 program.

Anyway, about those pylons and the door position...

When they were installed, the electrical connection from the pylon to the aircraft generated a "PYLON INSTALLED" signal in the Offensive Avionics System (OAS), and the jet "knew" not to open the doors past the PART OPEN position. An arrangement of 12 magnetic sensors installed on the doors' hinges would "sense" the doors' position and relay it to the OAS as well. The instant the doors got to PART OPEN an electrically controlled valve would shut off hydraulic power to the bay door drive motor.

Judging by the width of the AGM-129, there can't be much room to open the bay doors once the missiles are on pylons. Perhaps it was planned to shoot-off your external cruise missiles first, then drop the internal cruise missiles off the CSRL.

Additionally, in early days, the aircraft's OAS could only be programmed to accommodate Rotary Launcher (Nuclear) or Bomb Module(Conventional) in its software. With NUCLEAR programmed into the OAS, the bay doors were limited to PART OPEN, pylons or no. This is because I guess the PART OPEN position provides for a "cleaner" bomb separation out of the bay wind turbulence-wise. CONVENTIONAL software only allowed the doors to open to the FULL position.

Yes these pylons were jettisonable, but I'm not aware of any tests (airborne of ground) of this capability, but I do know this feature wound-up being deleted since I guess they could not trust a jettisoned pylon not to smack the nacelles or the fuselage as it fell away. From what I've read a B-1B with 12 AGM-129s hanging off of it would have abysmal range, and jettisoning the pylons in the name of reducing drag would not make much of a difference.

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #118 on: September 10, 2011, 11:38:25 am »
I can't show the original (sorry), but I can show "tracings" of Boeing AMSA/B-1 concept art. I hope to improve this drawing at some point, but here's a quick sketch.
 
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Offline circle-5

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #119 on: September 10, 2011, 02:39:27 pm »
Some AMSA concept art from North American Aviation, in high resolution. Ridiculously-high resolution files available upon request.
 
 [scanned from original NAA large-format transparencies]

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #120 on: September 10, 2011, 03:38:26 pm »
What a treat!!  ;D

Thank you so much, and please do it again whenever you feel like it!  ;)

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #121 on: September 13, 2011, 05:27:30 am »
Orionblamblam
 
The Boeing design looks very interesting... Waiting for more with many thanks..
 
Anything on AMSA is very rare as according to Tony Buttler most of the records
in US firms were just junked.
 
Maybe Ebay will yield some more models...
 
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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #122 on: September 13, 2011, 09:45:48 am »
This particualr AMSA concept was derived from Boeing SST studies. I'm hoping to get a higher resolution version of the artwork this was based on.
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Offline fightingirish

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #123 on: September 16, 2011, 07:53:18 am »
Here a video "United States Air Force B-1B Bomber" just found at Youtube.



Enjoy the video and Happy Weekend!  :)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 06:31:06 pm by flateric »
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Offline sferrin

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #124 on: September 16, 2011, 09:34:28 am »
TGIF for sure.
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #125 on: July 11, 2012, 01:31:45 am »
General Dynamics AMSA pencil sketch (via Mark Nankivil)


Same design as


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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #127 on: November 11, 2012, 09:11:21 am »
Had a short look at this report. I think, the XB-70 is just chosen as an example for
tests of a wide range of Mach numbers, so isn't really related to the AMSA program.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #128 on: December 21, 2012, 12:47:37 am »
This design is interesting.  Dated 15 January 1970.

When was AMSA given the B-1 designation?

(Higher res copy at link above)
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #129 on: January 02, 2013, 12:21:53 pm »
A whole pile more AMSA drawings posted on http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=114
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #130 on: January 02, 2013, 12:42:46 pm »
A whole pile more AMSA drawings posted on http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=114



Wonderful!

At the moment everyday is like Christmas, with everything that is being posted up on the Code One site!

A big thank you

Duncan

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #131 on: January 02, 2013, 01:53:45 pm »

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #132 on: January 09, 2013, 04:20:54 pm »
Here's a DTIC link to TECHNICAL DOCUMENTARY REPORT NO. ASD-TDR-62-426 from June 1962, regarding the Subsonic Low Altitude Bomber (SLAB).

Quote
ASD TDR 62-426
In Technological Force Structure Plan (TFSP) Task 9, interest was generated in strategic
aircraft which could attain extremely long strike ranges with penetrations performed
at very low altitude. The probability of penetration into enemy territory can be
increased significantly by low altitude flight. Consequently, a Subsonic Low Altitude
Bomber has been designed to satisfy a requirement for 12,500 nautical miles of range at
altitude with 12,500 pounds of payload. A sea level dash range of 2,500 nautical miles
was also required with a trade-off of not more than 2.5 miles of range at altitude for each
mile of sea level range. The specified minimum speed was Mach number 0.6. (S)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 03:04:33 am by Grey Havoc »
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Offline hesham

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #133 on: April 24, 2013, 05:35:58 am »
From Steve Pace book,


the North American/Rockwell D481-33.

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #134 on: October 06, 2013, 02:10:15 am »
The North American AMSA design from 1968:
(from Dennis R.Jenkins "B-1 Lancer")
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Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #135 on: November 22, 2013, 12:29:02 pm »
A 1989 Air War College paper on the then limitations of, and possible options for, conventional weapons regarding the B-1B in the ETO: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a220571.pdf
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #136 on: November 23, 2013, 03:13:22 am »
Collected General Dynamics AMSA / B-1 studies from http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=114
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #137 on: November 23, 2013, 04:29:08 am »
Amazing drawings my dear Paul.

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #138 on: November 23, 2013, 03:32:42 pm »
Absolutely splendid! Thanks for sharing.

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #139 on: November 24, 2013, 07:00:49 pm »
Absolutely splendid! Thanks for sharing.


...Agreed. Excellent find, sir!

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #140 on: November 25, 2013, 10:44:31 am »
Yep, I saw those a while ago. I didn't want to steal the thunder of CodeOne and so I didn't post them.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #141 on: November 25, 2013, 10:47:02 am »
I posted their existence in this topic some time ago, but noone seemed to notice.
 
I recommend everyone check out www.codeonemagazine.com it has lots of PDF back issues with some cool articles as well as interesting online content.
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #142 on: November 26, 2013, 11:58:35 am »
A 1989 Air War College paper on the then limitations of, and possible options for, conventional weapons regarding the B-1B in the ETO: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a220571.pdf

Interesting paper, especially when you consider that use of conventional weapons was a major mission of the B-1A. 

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #143 on: November 26, 2013, 12:29:39 pm »
A 1989 Air War College paper on the then limitations of, and possible options for, conventional weapons regarding the B-1B in the ETO: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a220571.pdf

Interesting paper, especially when you consider that use of conventional weapons was a major mission of the B-1A.

They made some ill-advised compromises with the B-1B design, in the interest of keeping costs down as well as optimising it for the low-level (nuclear) penetration role, which of course quickly backfired.
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #144 on: November 26, 2013, 05:16:53 pm »
A 1989 Air War College paper on the then limitations of, and possible options for, conventional weapons regarding the B-1B in the ETO: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a220571.pdf

Interesting paper, especially when you consider that use of conventional weapons was a major mission of the B-1A.

They made some ill-advised compromises with the B-1B design, in the interest of keeping costs down as well as optimising it for the low-level (nuclear) penetration role, which of course quickly backfired.

They were certainly trying to reduce costs as well as make it more "stealthy" and pure nuke, but the A was also real good at low level flight

Offline aim9xray

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #145 on: November 26, 2013, 08:01:24 pm »
What were the ill-advised design compromises in the A-to-B evolution?

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #146 on: November 27, 2013, 05:18:44 am »
What were the ill-advised design compromises in the A-to-B evolution?

One of the more well-known ones was going from variable supersonic inlets to fixed ones with vanes to block the fan faces from radar.  It reduced frontal RCS at the expense of a significant reduction in top speed at high altitude.

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #147 on: November 27, 2013, 11:10:39 am »
They were certainly trying to reduce costs as well as make it more "stealthy" and pure nuke, but the A was also real good at low level flight

Indeed. They should have stuck with the B-1A, though hindsight can be 20/20.

What were the ill-advised design compromises in the A-to-B evolution?

One of the more well-known ones was going from variable supersonic inlets to fixed ones with vanes to block the fan faces from radar.  It reduced frontal RCS at the expense of a significant reduction in top speed at high altitude.

Another was the drastic reduction of the amount of titanium in the airframe.
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Offline George Allegrezza

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #148 on: December 11, 2013, 08:37:08 am »
Here's an look at USAF thinking, 50 years ago this month, on future strategic aircraft.  There are interesting discussions on expectations of progress in materials and propulsion by Flax and Schreiver, and three major concepts discussed:
  • RX, a very high-speed, high altitude penetrator (perhaps in the HSVS or Isinglass class) by Lockheed and McDonnell
  • AMP (Advanced Manned Penetrator), predecessor to AMSA and an ancestor of the B-1, by Convair, Boeing, and North American
  • MPLE, a long-endurance standoff platform that is in many ways the equivalent of a chemically-powered CAMAL
SLAM is also briefly mentioned.  It's an intriguing snapshot in time, as the RS-70 would have been finally terminated, the RS-71 would have been waiting in the wings, ICBMs were being deployed rapidly, and advanced turbine, rocket, and other propulsion systems were on the horizon, so in some ways it was a unique opportunity for a new start on the strategic strike problem.


http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/1963/December%201963/1263decision.aspx
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 08:38:56 am by George Allegrezza »

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #149 on: December 11, 2013, 10:49:02 am »
What were the ill-advised design compromises in the A-to-B evolution?

One of the more well-known ones was going from variable supersonic inlets to fixed ones with vanes to block the fan faces from radar.  It reduced frontal RCS at the expense of a significant reduction in top speed at high altitude.

When they did the trade study they determined that the lower RCS made it more survivable despite the reduction in speed.  So hardly "ill-advised". 
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Offline F-14D

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #150 on: December 11, 2013, 11:25:45 am »
What were the ill-advised design compromises in the A-to-B evolution?

One of the more well-known ones was going from variable supersonic inlets to fixed ones with vanes to block the fan faces from radar.  It reduced frontal RCS at the expense of a significant reduction in top speed at high altitude.

When they did the trade study they determined that the lower RCS made it more survivable despite the reduction in speed.  So hardly "ill-advised".

I suspect it was more cost driven.  Even if the B-1A had gone into production, there would have been some changes.  For one thing, the requirement for M1.2 on the deck was going to be lowered to .9; it had been shown that lowering the speed by .3M did not lead to a significant increase in vulnerability, but would save a lot of money, and lighten the aircraft.  Also, in production B-1As the variable inlets would be retained, but they would be disabled in peacetime use.  There isn't that much proficiency benefit from flying at M2, and a lot of maintenance $ would be saved.  IN war, they would push the circuit breakers back in and you'd get back the M2.  F-14D (no, not me) did the same thing. 

In the B-1B, of course the variables weren't there at all.  Given that the B would never fly at ~M2, the decision was made to lighten the wing structure as well  to save weight and cost.  I suspect, though, they could have gotten the frontal RCS down to nearly that level with the variables in place, but it would take money and time, and they wanted those a/c available soonest.  We forget in our now glacial development speeds, that they designed, ordered, tested,  produced and delivered 100 a/c in less than seven years.   In fact, all 100 B-1Bs were delivered in a space of less than three years. 

So simplicity and cost were big factors, which is why I think the seed reduction was cost driven.  It's also why, as delivered the B-1B was a less flexible aircraft than the B-1A would have been, although it did have greater range. 

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #151 on: March 01, 2014, 02:33:15 am »
A few questions if anybody here knows the answers. Were the prototype B-1As actually capable of a M1.2 speed at low level or was that planned for production aircraft prior to that requirement change?

Regarding external weapons carriage, were those racks for the ACM the same that would have been used for the older ALCM as well? I don't see anything outboard of the second row of racks, where supposedly 2 additional ALCMs would be carried individually for a total of 14.

With the exception of the much later "B-1R" proposal was there any consideration for other weapons to be carried externally?
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #152 on: March 02, 2014, 05:08:31 pm »
Regarding external weapons carriage, were those racks for the ACM the same that would have been used for the older ALCM as well? I don't see anything outboard of the second row of racks, where supposedly 2 additional ALCMs would be carried individually for a total of 14.

Nope. Those pylons were very specific to the ACM. The B-1 was designed to carry ALCM externally but that was never flight tested as far as I have been able to find. Only the ACM was, and that was a different configuration than was designed for the ALCM.

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #153 on: March 27, 2014, 06:08:18 am »
From Airpower 9/2004.

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #154 on: March 27, 2014, 07:19:05 am »
Nope. Those pylons were very specific to the ACM. The B-1 was designed to carry ALCM externally but that was never flight tested as far as I have been able to find. Only the ACM was, and that was a different configuration than was designed for the ALCM.
IIRC the ACM was designed specifically for supersonic external carriage.  (Whether a B-1 could go supersonic with a bunch of them hanging off it is another matter.)  With AGM-86 that option would not be in the cards.
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #155 on: April 29, 2014, 10:10:15 am »
Although not unbuilt, here is a Bone with a Sniper Pod attached to the starboard fwd hard point. The aircraft was from Dyess and was at the recent Davis Monthan air show in Tucson.

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #156 on: August 14, 2015, 05:28:54 am »
Boeing Exploring Enhanced Close-Air-Support Capabilities For B-1
Helmet demo slated for the fall

Quote
B-1 Lancer manufacturer Boeing is investing in research to support a slate of potential upgrades that would enhance the platform's ability to perform an increasing load of close-air-support missions.

The bomber has in recent years taken on a greater portion of CAS missions, particularly as part of ongoing operations in the Middle East. According to Boeing's director of B-1 advanced programs, Dan Ruder, the platform is due for a series of upgrades to help support that broadening mission set. In an Aug. 11 interview, Ruder said the company is investing in enhancements to the B-1's helmet and weapons carriage options.

B-1 pilots and crewmembers currently operate with a standard helmet that does not feature a heads-up display or cueing system. Ruder said that as he talks to pilots returning from forward operating locations, he consistently hears of the challenges associated with pilots and weapon system operators trying to visualize a common target.

"They've run into issues where it has taken hours to try to talk a weapon system operator onto a particular spot of interest," Ruder said. "In some cases they haven't been able to talk them on at all, and of course with time-sensitive targets, that's just not acceptable."

That communication is especially difficult in terrain that lacks man-made objects or reference points, Ruder said.

To help address this problem, Boeing is working to develop a helmet-mounted cueing system (HMCS) that would attach to a B-1 pilot's helmet and allow them to pass coordinates of a particular target on the ground -- simply by looking at it -- to the weapon system operator. The company, with cooperation from Air Force Global Strike Command, has demonstrated the capability in a laboratory environment and is planning a ground demonstration at Dyess Air Force Base, TX, in October or November.

"In the lab environment, we had to simulate a lot of that so this will be the first time we actually do a demonstration with the real aircraft and the real targeting pod," he said.

Ruder said along with enhancing the passage of targeting information, the HMCS brings added visualization to a platform that is starting to run out of room for displays. The company has experimented with adding a capability to the HMCS which would project a virtual display into the helmet. He said this capability would have benefits not just for the pilot but for the rest of the crew.

"If that's something the Air Force thinks is a capability that would be beneficial, they could put virtual displays up into their helmet-mounted cueing system to give them more information or give them the information they need at that particular time," he said. "So we're going to demonstrate that as well."

Ruder noted that the helmet could also have benefits for B-52 crewmembers as that platform also performs close-air-support missions. He said the company doesn't have plans to demonstrate HMCS on the B-52, but he noted that the Air Force's decision to move the B-1 to Global Strike Command creates more opportunities for B-1 capabilities to transfer to other platforms and vice versa.

Boeing is investing its own independent research and development dollars in the effort, but Ruder said the company has had discussions about transitioning the system to a program of record should the service decide to move forward following the ground demonstration. Should the Air Force choose not to invest in the system right away, Ruder said Boeing would likely continue with some low-level investment but not with the same emphasis it has now.

The program has seen some success with transitioning internal research and development (IRAD) efforts like this into formal programs, Ruder said, and he cited the B-1's targeting pod as an example. When the company first started investigating the possibility of adding a targeting pod to the B-1, the Air Force didn't view the aircraft as a close-air-support platform. Still, Boeing decided to invest, expecting that there would be a future need for the capability. When the Air Force did decide to pull the trigger, the technology was available off the shelf.

"The Air Force is focused on fighting the current battle and here in industry, what we can do is sometimes we can look out and look at what we think future capabilities are or future needs would be," he said.

Another area of investment aimed at enhancing the B-1's CAS mission is expanded weapons carriage -- both to increase the number of Joint Direct Attack Munitions the bomber can carry and to integrate the Small Diameter Bomb onto the platform. Right now, the B-1 can carry 24 2,000-pound JDAMS and 15 500-pound JDAMS, both weapons that are typically used for CAS missions. The company in 2010 demonstrated what it calls a two-position multiple ejector rack that would allow the B-1 to carry 48 500-pound JDAMs. The new rack would not increase the B-1's carriage capacity but it would allow the platform flexibility in which weapons it carries.

For now, the capability is on the shelf ready to be used should the Air Force recognize a need for it.

The B-1 does not currently carry the Small Diameter Bomb, but Boeing is exploring integration on the B-1, which could carry 96 SDBs.

"There's already a multiple ejector rack developed for the Small Diameter Bomb, which is used on the fighters," Ruder said. "All we would have to do is integrate that onto our rotary launcher and of course do the software to interface with it."

Ruder said there have been some studies looking at the complexity of SDB integration and that there is some interest from the Air Force, but cost is a constraint.

"With the fiscal environment that we're in, they have their hands full just fighting the current fight and keeping the airplane sustained," he said. -- Courtney Albon
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Offline fightingirish

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #157 on: September 16, 2015, 12:07:36 pm »
Some nice pictures and drawings showing the early B-1A.
Link: https://www.flickr.com/photos/aahs_archives/sets/72157655832825103
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #158 on: June 12, 2016, 02:36:38 am »
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #159 on: January 14, 2018, 12:55:27 pm »
Hi all, let me revive this old topic:
link to WIND TUNNEL INVESTIGATION OF A 1/9-SCALE BOEING COMPANY AMSA AIRPLANE- INLET MODEL AT TRANSONIC AND SUPERSONIC MACH NUMBERS.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/385284.pdf

Aircraft very similar to the traced out sketch published by Scott along time ago. From the wind tunnels model, they tried out three-engined configurations too.

And
Wind Tunnel Investigation of a 1/8-Scale AMSA Aircraft-Inlet Model at Transonic and Supersonic Mach Numbers  from GD published here and on which a rather complete report exist on DTIC.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/385450.pdf
Very similar to the above mentioned  well known AMPSS configuration.

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #160 on: January 14, 2018, 02:30:35 pm »
Marco! Its been almost 3 years - welcome back :)
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #161 on: January 14, 2018, 03:21:10 pm »
Welcome your return my dear Skybolt.

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #162 on: January 14, 2018, 09:19:44 pm »
Welcome back Skybolt your contribution to this forum have been missed.
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #163 on: January 14, 2018, 11:06:34 pm »
Hi all, let me revive this old topic:
link to WIND TUNNEL INVESTIGATION OF A 1/9-SCALE BOEING COMPANY AMSA AIRPLANE- INLET MODEL AT TRANSONIC AND SUPERSONIC MACH NUMBERS.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/385284.pdf

Aircraft very similar to the traced out sketch published by Scott along time ago. From the wind tunnels model, they tried out three-engined configurations too.

And
Wind Tunnel Investigation of a 1/8-Scale AMSA Aircraft-Inlet Model at Transonic and Supersonic Mach Numbers  from GD published here and on which a rather complete report exist on DTIC.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/385450.pdf
Very similar to the above mentioned  well known AMPSS configuration.

General Dynamics AMSA from report
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 12:20:33 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #164 on: January 15, 2018, 12:05:14 am »
All the General Dynamics AMSA materials from http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=114 posted here for comment and posterity. Note the VG Subsonic design. The Configuration 2906 seems to be the version windtunnel tested above.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 12:13:27 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #165 on: January 15, 2018, 04:35:35 am »
Many thanks my dear Paul.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 05:18:51 am by hesham »

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #166 on: January 15, 2018, 09:06:14 am »
That looks like a fighter canopy, not something you'd see on a bomber.  ???
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #167 on: January 15, 2018, 10:22:43 am »
...unless someone is going all TFX 2.0? Wouldn't that be a grand idea.

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #168 on: January 17, 2018, 02:39:30 am »
That looks like a fighter canopy, not something you'd see on a bomber.  ???

Well, B-47 and XB-52 had fighter-looking canopies too...  and B-57, IIRC...

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #169 on: January 20, 2018, 02:42:10 am »
Well, you may say as well the the F-111B was a fighter (sort of) with a bomber canopy...  :)

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #170 on: April 10, 2018, 05:29:04 pm »
I'm trying to find info on the B-1 space launch vehicle proposal. It was a B-1 carrying a rocket with satellite underneath. I know I've seen it somewhere, possibly on this board, but I can no longer find it. Any help would be appreciated.

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #171 on: May 11, 2018, 11:41:29 am »
Boeing Patent for 'gunship' version of B-1:

More details

Offline Mark Nankivil

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #172 on: May 11, 2018, 01:14:20 pm »
Slow day at work coming up with that..... Mark

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #173 on: May 11, 2018, 01:47:10 pm »
Slow day at work coming up with that..... Mark

That or someone wanted to impress their kid...or tapped into their inner child. :)

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #174 on: May 11, 2018, 03:43:28 pm »
Apache envy

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #176 on: May 11, 2018, 09:21:26 pm »
Slow day at work coming up with that..... Mark

That or someone wanted to impress their kid...or tapped into their inner child. :)

I had to stare at it for some time before I'd accept what my eyes were telling me...

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #177 on: May 14, 2018, 07:02:47 am »
Slow day at work coming up with that..... Mark

That or someone wanted to impress their kid...or tapped into their inner child. :)

I had to stare at it for some time before I'd accept what my eyes were telling me...

I wondered if someone needed to demonstrate that they knew how to get a patent through the USPTO.

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #178 on: May 14, 2018, 12:43:22 pm »
...Or they decided drawings of a B-52 would be boring and old-fashioned. The patent has nothing specifically to do with the B-1B, and so they could have used drawings of any real or notional aircraft with a bomb bay.

I think it was clever marketing — if it were a B-52 in the figures, would the non-specialist press have picked it up and run with it? It's getting conversation started on social media with folks that don't generally follow things like patents on swinging a gun or laser out of an airplane, so I'd have to say Boeing's marketing folks succeeded.

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #179 on: May 14, 2018, 01:47:14 pm »
Sure but do you really want to send the message, "we think our best ideas come from Wile E. Coyote cartoons"?
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #180 on: May 14, 2018, 02:36:11 pm »
Sure but do you really want to send the message, "we think our best ideas come from Wile E. Coyote cartoons"?

I'm honestly confused about why people think that this notion is so irrational. If you develop a palletized gun system that can deploy at substantial airspeed, slew around and accurately hit targets at some distance, then that same gun system can be mounted on other systems. Flip it upside down and put in on the back of a truck and nail ground and air targets. Put it on the deck of a cargo ship and surprise the hell out of those Somali pirates or Iranian gunboats or Chinese destroyers. Put one in a shipping container and plop it on top of your embassy or other fixed position.

Put the gun in a B-1 and get it on site quickly. Put it in a B-52 and loiter over the target. Put it in a B-2 and get there quietly. Hang a modified version out the back of a C-130 or C-17 and make an insta-gunship.
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #181 on: May 14, 2018, 02:53:18 pm »
If you develop a palletized gun system that can deploy at substantial airspeed, slew around and accurately hit targets at some distance

And there's the problem.  If you've ever seen footage of Apaches firing their canon it's not all that accurate.  If they're in a hover they can hit a single guy...eventually.  Put that on a plane at 20,000 feet (to stay out of reach of small arms fire) and forget it. 
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #182 on: May 14, 2018, 06:29:04 pm »
If you develop a palletized gun system that can deploy at substantial airspeed, slew around and accurately hit targets at some distance

And there's the problem.  If you've ever seen footage of Apaches firing their canon it's not all that accurate.  If they're in a hover they can hit a single guy...eventually.  Put that on a plane at 20,000 feet (to stay out of reach of small arms fire) and forget it.

You probably wouldn't send a B-1 or B-52 to nail a single guy. If you wanted to mess up a truck column, or theatrically turn a building or an industrial area or a missile launch site or a mass of infantry or a gunboat or a cargo ship or a train or low flying helicopters or cargo planes into confetti, this would be a dandy way to do it. Orbit at 20,000 feet and drop five thousand rounds of 40MM on a target, the *right* *kind* of target, and you'll leave an impression. With a 40MM cannon, the possibility certainly exists to use guided rounds. Imagine having a 40MM cannon capable of nailing one guy from five miles up... thousands of times. The mission limitation might be fatigue in the on-board WSO, so the plane might have to have remote gunners.

Still, consider: a B-1 with a high-precision gun is available, and you've just found out that the leader of ISIS is going to be standing on such-and-such a balcony hundreds of miles into enemy territory in a few hours. Soon enough that a B-1 could get there, but not an Apache, not a SEAL sniper team. It might be worth it to send that B-1. The guy is standing there chatting with his buds when BLAMMO his chest is turned into a cavity. Everyone starts looking around but can't see diddly because the gun is *miles* up and *miles* away. The B-1 gunner (now that he has definite confirmation that the target is indeed toast) gets to decide whether to call it a day and leave the rest of the people wondering, or start plinking. Individuals would be too busy simulating Brownian motion to be individually targeted (unless the rounds are laser guided), but their vehicles and structures certainly could be. If you want to be especially entertaining, use rounds that detonate a meter or two prior to impact, thus making a real mess of soft targets.
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Offline taildragger

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #183 on: May 14, 2018, 11:40:24 pm »
So how is the above a better approach than using precision-guided cluster munitions?  I think the USAF got it right when they put this in the "interesting but unnecessary file".   

Offline Foo Fighter

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #184 on: May 15, 2018, 03:50:34 am »
Perhaps the ability to reduce or remove the collateral damage from cluster munitions.  Cluster munitions tend to kill just about everything in the vicinity of the target which is good for media coverage but not so good for the civilian population at ground zero or governments tainted by the act.

Offline TomS

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #185 on: May 15, 2018, 05:11:47 am »
Such scenarios are more or less fantasy anyway, since actionable intelligence with that high precision in terms of both space and time is exceptionally rare.  And the US has shown little concern about putting a PGM through roof of the suspect building on the occasions when such targets do present themselves.  A B-1 with a bays full of SDBs or 500-pound JDAMs would be more than adequate for such missions.

This capability might be of some interest (though far from essential) in cases where bombers are used to provide close air support to troops on the ground.  There are instances of B-1Bs (in Afghanistan mainly) making low-level, high-speed passes for suppression just from the sheer noise of their passage.  Being able to deploy a gun to provide suppression with some actual lethality and standoff might be appealing.  But it's a lot of bomb bay to tie up for such a capability.

The idea that a gun is somehow more of a precision weapon just isn't borne out by the reality on the ground.  A gun fired at range from a high-speed aircraft is going to cover a wide area even when nominally shooting at a point target.  That's just the nature of the beast -- dispersion is unvoidable.  Even the guns on attack helicopters are far from precision implements, as Scott pointed out.  Hence the interest in small guided weapons like APKWS to provide actual low-collateral-damage lethality. 
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 07:20:37 am by TomS »

Offline Jeb

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #186 on: May 15, 2018, 08:15:23 am »

You probably wouldn't send a B-1 or B-52 to nail a single guy. If you wanted to mess up a truck column, or theatrically turn a building or an industrial area or a missile launch site or a mass of infantry or a gunboat or a cargo ship or a train or low flying helicopters or cargo planes into confetti, this would be a dandy way to do it. Orbit at 20,000 feet and drop five thousand rounds of 40MM on a target, the *right* *kind* of target, and you'll leave an impression. With a 40MM cannon, the possibility certainly exists to use guided rounds. Imagine having a 40MM cannon capable of nailing one guy from five miles up... thousands of times. The mission limitation might be fatigue in the on-board WSO, so the plane might have to have remote gunners.

Still, consider: a B-1 with a high-precision gun is available, and you've just found out that the leader of ISIS is going to be standing on such-and-such a balcony hundreds of miles into enemy territory in a few hours. Soon enough that a B-1 could get there, but not an Apache, not a SEAL sniper team. It might be worth it to send that B-1. The guy is standing there chatting with his buds when BLAMMO his chest is turned into a cavity. Everyone starts looking around but can't see diddly because the gun is *miles* up and *miles* away. The B-1 gunner (now that he has definite confirmation that the target is indeed toast) gets to decide whether to call it a day and leave the rest of the people wondering, or start plinking. Individuals would be too busy simulating Brownian motion to be individually targeted (unless the rounds are laser guided), but their vehicles and structures certainly could be. If you want to be especially entertaining, use rounds that detonate a meter or two prior to impact, thus making a real mess of soft targets.

See, this starts to sound like the Project Insight Helicarriers from Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

Offline Avimimus

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #187 on: May 15, 2018, 09:57:16 am »
Yes, what I was thinking: A 40mm cannon firing guided rounds might be the exception (effective, relatively cheap, and usable outside of short range air-defenses).

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #188 on: May 15, 2018, 10:21:08 am »

See, this starts to sound like the Project Insight Helicarriers from Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

Science fiction has often been a decent way to envision future developments. A high altitude aircraft capable of sniping individual combatants at high volume, high rate and some distance would be a *fantastic* capability.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 12:28:25 pm by flateric »
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Offline sferrin

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #189 on: May 15, 2018, 10:24:42 am »

See, this starts to sound like the Project Insight Helicarriers from Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

Science fiction has often been a decent way to envision future developments. A high altitude aircraft capable of sniping individual combatants at high volume, high rate and some distance would be a *fantastic* capability.

That was basically the concept in Real Genius but they used a laser in a weapons bay in a B-1.  Why not do the same instead of a projectile weapon?  Make a self-contained pallet that slides into one of the bays on a B-1B.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 12:28:38 pm by flateric »
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #190 on: May 15, 2018, 10:40:12 am »
Such scenarios are more or less fantasy anyway, since actionable intelligence with that high precision in terms of both space and time is exceptionally rare. 

Not really. Sure, knowledge about "hey, you know that *one* guy we really want?" might be rare, but "hey, there's a whole camp of jackholes we'd like to kill" is fairly common. The capability being discussed here *might* (and, eventually, *will*) allow an aircraft to take out individuals. If you have a series of remote gunners or a really good AI hooked up to sizable optics and laser guided ammo, you could shoot every male of military age in a camp, or everyone holding an AK-47 or an RPG, or everyone *not* wearing an orange jumpsuit.

The ability to turn an entire camp into a smoking hole is a fine demonstration of power. The ability to turn *specific* people in a camp into individual smoking holes is a whole new level of power projection.

Quote
A B-1 with a bays full of SDBs or 500-pound JDAMs would be more than adequate for such missions.

Sure, if your goal is widespread and rather uninspired destruction. and that's fine for many applications. But there's times when you want to do something different, or otherwise we'd simply drop bobs on *all* problems.

Quote
dispersion is unvoidable.  Even the guns on attack helicopters are far from precision implements, as Scott pointed out.  Hence the interest in small guided weapons like APKWS to provide actual low-collateral-damage lethality.

And since there are guided .50 BMG rounds, a 20MM and especially a 40MM with guided rounds is pretty straightforward. Imagine how many tens of thousands of rounds of guided 20MM a B-52 could carry, along with the optics needed to pick out individual targets. With a proper controlling AI software system, that B-52 could overfly enemy territory and apply one 20MM round to each person. A single B-52 could wipe out an entire invasion force landing in, say, Taiwan or Ukraine (by targeting everyone wearing a particular nations uniform... killing them, but leaving a lot of their *stuff* intact, and *not* trashing the friendly territory the B-52 is protecting). It could kill the crews of every single small attack boat within 20 miles. It could turn an infantry assault sweeping west through Poland into just a whole lot of dead guys. And missiles and aircraft sent to bring that B-52 down had better attack from above, because they won't get close.


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Offline Jeb

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #191 on: May 15, 2018, 10:52:08 am »

See, this starts to sound like the Project Insight Helicarriers from Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

Science fiction has often been a decent way to envision future developments. A high altitude aircraft capable of sniping individual combatants at high volume, high rate and some distance would be a *fantastic* capability.

That was basically the concept in Real Genius but they used a laser in a weapons bay in a B-1.  Why not do the same instead of a projectile weapon?  Make a self-contained pallet that slides into one of the bays on a B-1B.

Hell, fill the two forward bays with laser pallets and some sort of fly-out smart weapon in the third. I mean, since we're making stuff up and all.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 12:29:05 pm by flateric »

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #192 on: May 15, 2018, 10:58:23 am »
And since there are guided .50 BMG rounds, a 20MM and especially a 40MM with guided rounds is pretty straightforward. Imagine how many tens of thousands of rounds of guided 20MM a B-52 could carry, along with the optics needed to pick out individual targets. With a proper controlling AI software system, that B-52 could overfly enemy territory and apply one 20MM round to each person. A single B-52 could wipe out an entire invasion force landing in, say, Taiwan or Ukraine (by targeting everyone wearing a particular nations uniform... killing them, but leaving a lot of their *stuff* intact, and *not* trashing the friendly territory the B-52 is protecting). It could kill the crews of every single small attack boat within 20 miles. It could turn an infantry assault sweeping west through Poland into just a whole lot of dead guys. And missiles and aircraft sent to bring that B-52 down had better attack from above, because they won't get close.


There was an article in an old MILTECH back in the late 80s/early 90s where they'd developed a guided 40mm round.  It used single-shot side thrusters like the ASM-135 KKV.  They said they could scale it down to 20mm or up to 16" rounds.  As Exacto demonstrated, the options are greater now.
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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #193 on: May 15, 2018, 11:45:24 am »

Hell, fill the two forward bays with laser pallets and some sort of fly-out smart weapon in the third. I mean, since we're making stuff up and all.

What stuff is being made up? Guns? We have them. Laser guided ammo? Have it. AI systems that can distinguish types of targets? Have it (quite possibly your *phone* has it). Airborne optics? Got it.
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Offline marauder2048

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #194 on: May 15, 2018, 12:53:20 pm »
DoD FY2018 Rapid Innovation Fund

U.S. Special Operations Command (USSOCOM)
Requirement #: SOCOM-18-BAA-RIF-0001
Title: Guided 30MM Ammunition Capability
Military System or Acquisition Customer: Program Executive Office (PEO) – Fixed Wing
(FW)
Description: Provide an enhanced accuracy, guided 30MM ammunition capability that is
compatible with current AC-130 W/J platforms’ Mk 44 Bushmaster II (GAU-23) automatic
cannon weapon systems. Deliver a 30MM round capable of receiving and responding to
externally provided post launch course corrections to accurately engage designated moving and
stationary ground targets, with guidance systems that are compatible with current Precision
Strike Package (PSP) on the AC-130 W/J aircraft configurations with little or no hardware
modifications. Proposed software modifications should lead to demonstrable capability by minor
additions to PSP software in about six months with full capability fitting in the annual PSP
software release cycle. The guided 30MM round target circular error probability (CEP) must be
predictable and provide considerable improved accuracy over standard unguided 30MM
ammunition. The guided 30MM round must operate within the operating envelope of the
AFSOC AC-130 W/J, altitudes (15,000 – 25,000’ MSL), ranges (1.0 - 10.0nm) and slant ranges
(2.5 – 3.0nm). Use of high fidelity modeling throughout development is encouraged to
determine the optimal munition configurations, characteristics and maximize the value of range,
ground, and flight testing. The initiative will conclude with a guided 30MM ammunition round
design, guidance and control system, and tracking system that has been demonstrated in a nearfinal
and realistic configuration.

Technical POC: Todd Hadley, 813-826-0048, Todd.hadley@socom.mil.

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #197 on: May 23, 2018, 12:33:11 am »
Thanks for PDF link !
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #198 on: May 23, 2018, 01:56:28 am »
Ta muchly.

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #199 on: July 02, 2018, 09:49:33 am »
Quote from: PeninsulaSrsVideos
B-1 Bailout: Hazards of Flight Test
B-1 Flight Test Engineer Otto Waniczek recounts conditions, causes, and aftermath of the crash of a B-1 Lancer prototype that crashed on 29 August 1984.  Only two of the crew members survived the bailout, sadly pilot Benefield did not.  Produced by Jarel & Betty Wheaton for Peninsula Seniors www.pvseniors.org
Video:

Code: [Select]
https://youtu.be/TN-mXzAFCqM
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #200 on: September 15, 2018, 06:02:06 am »
From Le Fana 585.

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #201 on: September 15, 2018, 12:38:06 pm »
Was it to fly with its wings as swept back as that? A smooth ride at low level, yes. But also crash prone surely?

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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #202 on: September 15, 2018, 11:54:21 pm »
I think the model is wrong, maybe somebody destroyed the pivots...
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #203 on: September 16, 2018, 01:09:57 am »
Nope, sweeping the wings all the way back to 90 degrees turning you to a lifting body was a 'thing' for a while. This model locates the pivots outboard to make it work.
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Re: AMSA Program & B-1 Bomber projects
« Reply #205 on: September 19, 2018, 08:10:06 am »
Nope, sweeping the wings all the way back to 90 degrees turning you to a lifting body was a 'thing' for a while. This model locates the pivots outboard to make it work.

I particularly liked the scissor-wing, low-altitude, lifting body bomber.
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