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Author Topic: Mirage project and numbers  (Read 8825 times)

Offline Archibald

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Mirage project and numbers
« on: June 28, 2006, 06:37:19 am »
Aparently at the beginning the first Mirage were named by number such as I, II, III and the like. If I understand well

Mirage I
Small interceptor, 2 Viper 930 kgp each

Mirage II
Bigger interceptor, 2 Gabizo 1500 kgp each

Mirage III
Final interceptor, 1 Atar 101 4500 kgp

Mirage IV
More powerfull, mach2 Mirage III.
3 studies
- 1 Atar 9 , 6000 kgp (become the Mirage III we all know)
- 1 Super Atar, 9000 kgp (abandoned because of the engine)
- 2 atar 9 (Mirage IVC become the bomber Mirage IVA)

Mirage V
Naval fighter, delta with tail, Super Atar 8500 kgp.

I just ask if there was a Mirage VI project?? anybody has data about it?
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Offline TinWing

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Re: Mirage project and numbers
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2006, 09:15:18 am »
Mirage 1000:

I've seen references to a scaled down Mirage 2000, but I don't know if this is just an "extrapolation" based on mere conjecture.

Mirage 2000

Mirage 3000:

A twin RB.199 engined Mirage 2000 derivative.  Strangely, no drawings have ever come to light?

Mirage 4000:

A "Hindustan Times" article recently indicated that this program might have been revived.

Mirage 6000:

A reference to a "Mirage 6000" appeared on the KeyPublishishing forum a couple of years ago?  Does anyone know anything more?

Offline Archibald

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Re: Mirage project and numbers
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2006, 10:00:41 am »
I heard, too about this Mirage 3000 with two RB-199... is the RB-199 smaller than the M-53?
The hindustan article is probably an error... the 4000 is at le Bourget museum from october 1992; it stop flying in January 1988, nearly 20 years ago! Dassault had enormous difficulties to sold the Rafale abroad, so the 4000 is probably out of  question... but I just love this plane, too!!
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Offline Deino

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Re: Mirage project and numbers
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2006, 01:11:29 pm »
...

Mirage 6000:

A reference to a "Mirage 6000" appeared on the KeyPublishishing forum a couple of years ago?  Does anyone know anything more?

Wasn't this Mach-3 design called Mirage 6000 ???

cheers, Deino
He was my North, my South, my East and West,
My working week and my Sunday rest,
My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.
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For nothing now can ever come to any good.
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Mirage project and numbers
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2006, 01:56:32 am »
A myth!!! MiG-25-like, two M-53, Aviation Magazine june 1969...
Deino, this remind me a topic on Key Publishing Aviation forum... just found it!!!  And we need you more often  in the whatif modeler forum... :)
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Offline Deino

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Re: Mirage project and numbers
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2006, 01:18:37 pm »
... here it is the Mega-Mirage !! ... if it ever was a real Mirage !
He was my North, my South, my East and West,
My working week and my Sunday rest,
My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.
...
For nothing now can ever come to any good.
-------------------------------------------------
W.H.Auden (1945)

Offline Archibald

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Re: Mirage project and numbers
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2006, 01:38:44 pm »
To me its not really a Mirage because of the air intakes.. there's no  "souris" anymore...the Rafale, too, renounced to the "Souris" so it is not a Mirage anymore...
I just love this concept!
One day I'll make a model of this plane (no too difficult, slauthering a MiG-25...) 
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

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Offline TinWing

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Re: Mirage project and numbers
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2006, 08:26:16 pm »
... here it is the Mega-Mirage !! ... if it ever was a real Mirage !

This drawing is real in the sense that Tony Buttler apparently had it published in Air Enthusiast.  We can take it at face value.

Is this an early twin M53 proposal dating from the 1969 Paris Air Show?  I am willing to accept that.  With all of the references made to the M53 as originally a "high altitude Mach 3" design, it is reasonable to suppose that Dassault proposal of this sort was made.

It does seem as if 1969 was at least 10 years too late for such a proposal to seem credible.  Of course, it would make sense if you consider the M53 to be a mere revival of the late 1950s "Super Atar."


Offline Archibald

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Re: Mirage project and numbers
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2006, 12:33:55 am »
Concerning the M-53 to my knowledge the program started in july 1968, first engine ran in 1970.
 First flight test was on a Caravelle airliner in July 1972, and the Mirage F-1E supersonic testbed (later F-16 competitor for the deal of the century) flew in December 1973.
Concerning French aviation, we have a problem with its preservation...a big problem. Here's some examples...

I heard that in GB or the USA, associations regularly  fly F-100 or Sea Vixen. Of course, their guns, bombs and the like are decomissioned, so they are not considred as weapon anymore by the law...
This is totally impossible in France... sometimes,french  warbirds owners have to fight against laws which considers their planes as weapons!   Others laws tend to prohibit airshows and the like.

As you can see, French web-aviation is quite poor; it is quite impossible to found datas about early prototypes of the 1945-1960 era, but also about some Mirage prototypes (Mirage F-2 / F-3, Mirage G/ G8 and so on).
concerning  firms, its the same thing... their story from 1936 to the 70's is quite complicated, ad there's not one website to explain that clearly...
Maybe one day I try to do one, but it's not easy then to promote it...


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http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline Archibald

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Re: Mirage project and numbers
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2006, 01:02:16 am »
Well I created a website where I try to explain some things about french aviation... it's the beginning, i must complete it and add photos. Here's the adress... http://frenchaviation.populus.ch
There's some explanations about french aviation firms (how they were roganised in 1936)
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Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

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Offline Jemiba

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Re: Mirage project and numbers
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2006, 02:02:41 am »
Great !
Congratulations, a very good start !
To be fair, things have become a little bit better over the last years. When I began
my search  for french post-war aircraft, the SE.2410 for example, was unknown even
to most aviation enthusiasts and there were no pictures in the net. French military jet
a/c just were Mirage, Mirage and Mirage ... Due to the work of some people, you can
find better infos today, one who should be mentioned, I think is Bruno Parmentier,
owner of http://www.aviafrance.com/.
But I really can imagine, that the nationalisation was in some respect the reason, that
informations and documents were lost. Merging two or more companies usually results
in "savings", money, manpower and probably room, formerly occupied by piles of old
paper ... and at least the SNCAN /Nord Aviation archives were lost due to fire and I
think, I read something like that in connection with another company.
Of course, such things con happen everywhere, but maybe there was little bit of
indifference with regard to such themes ?
The british are said to be a nation of collectors. Are the french collectors, too ?   ;D

But : There are still Lightnings and Buccaneers flying, but not in GB, but in South
Africa !   ;)
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Archibald

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Re: Mirage project and numbers
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2006, 02:14:42 am »
Some French try to collect warbirds, but its much difficult than in GB. Why? Idon't know really... people are less interesting by aircraft, and more Governement don't help very much! As I say, laws are not favorable to aircraft collection in France because of weapon legislation.

There's also problems with Le Bourget museum... there's no global project so the museum is quite degraded now.
It lacks room for its collections, but new buildings are too expensive, and there's a lack of public funds to support the museum. That's why some planes stay outside, exposed to wheather conditions... 

I agree with you, it's hard finding informations on the prototypes of the 1946-1952 era. Its mainly because they were all failure...
War devastation hampered the french aircraft industry... we have to learn how making good jets, and it took 7 years until 1952. This year was really the year of the revival...

Thanks you for the comments on my website! I'll try to add photos...
I know Aviafrance quite well, it's a good site, but datas are scarce...
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Online hesham

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Re: Mirage project and numbers
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2018, 08:56:55 am »
From Le Fan 263.