Dassault Mirage IVC

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Hello gents

Does anyone have any drawings and specifications for the original proposed Mirage IVC, which was planed to be powered by two Pratt & Whitney J75 turbojets?

The French were to concentrate on and fielded the smaller, less powerful (and useful!) and most importantly for France ‘cheaper’ Mirage IVA supersonic bomber

Regards
Pioneer
 
It was the Mirage IV B

I cannot bring the drawing here, but there is one at least in Les avions de combat français of Jean Cuny, page 129 and in Dassault 1945-1995 part 2 of Carlier-Berger, page 107. But maybe one of these two drawings was bring on the site in another topic.

Specifications :
jet engines : J-75 B-24 (Cuny)
Thrust : 2 x 14 500 kgp (Cuny) 2 x 11 000 (Carlier-Berger)
span : 16,03 m
length: 27,8 m
wing aera : 130 m²
weight min : 22 800 kg (Cuny) 21 600 (Carlier-Berger)
weight max : 56 000 kg (Cuny) 57 000 (Carlier-Berger)
speed max : mach 2,20 (Cuny) > 2 (Carlier-Berger)
height fly : > 18 000 m (Cuny) 18 500 (Carlier-Berger)
Range : 4 400 km (Carlier-Berger)
 
Mirage IVC was a generic denomination covering various Mirage III-01 bigger-derivatives, single and twin engines variants.

The design ended with weight and dimensions close from the actual Rafale. The project was scrapped in favor of the Mirage IVA, which in fact evolved from it...
 
Thanks for your effort gents ;D

It looks as if the French Air Force could have had a far more capable supersonic bomber, with an all important range increase (50%).
But then again its never the politicians that have to fly these missions is it!
Heck, if politicians did fly military missions, their aircraft would be chauffeur piloted, air conditioned, and equipped with a mini bar, and they would attempt to talk their way through enemy air defences :D

Its unfortunate that the Mirage IV C (with its PW/SNECMA turbofans) was not followed up. This could have given the Mirage IV series a far greater chance of competing in the requirements of foreign Air Forces need (Israel, RAAF ...........)

Regards
Pioneer
 
Does French Secret Projects contain drawings or additional info for the Mirage IVC?
 
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well a decade ago Le Fana dug out some photos of the unfinished ACF.
Seems like in the year 1959 some bits of Mirage IVB were build between february and september. Also wondering if a mockup was build.
Would be nice to have some photos of that beast !
 

this is Jean Cabriere testimony dated 1990 or so. A goldmine.

au début de juin, la fabrication du premier avion a été lancée et à la fin du mois d'août on peut voir, dans l'atelier de Saint-Cloud, les premiers cadres de fuselage et le squelette de la maquette d'aménagement qui vient d'être montée sur son bâti. Mais le Mirage IV-B ne dépassera pas ce stade.
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fuselage frames plus the skeleton of a mockup
 
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Archibald said:
[URL unfurl = "true"] http://www.institut-strategie.fr/ihcc_nuc1_Cabriere.html [/ URL]

this is Jean Cabriere testimony dated 1990 or so. A goldmine.

at the beginning of June, the manufacture of the first plane was launched and at the end of August one can see, in the workshop of Saint-Cloud, the first fuselage frames and the skeleton of the layout model which has just been mounted on its frame. But the Mirage IV-B will not go beyond this stage.
Click to expand...

fuselage frames plus the skeleton of a mockup
Click to expand...
I searched the site for a good place to post this, if it had not been posted already. Pure gold indeed.
 
le Mirage IV-01, en attendant les pneumatiques spécialement créés pour lui, effectuera ses premiers vols avec les pneumatiques de l'engin américain Navaho.
--------------------
the Mirage IV-01, while waiting for tires specially created for [its high takeoff speed] will make its first flights with the tires of the American Navaho.
Click to expand...

Riding on Navaho, Ca c'est la classe!
More seriously it gives an indication on the Mirage serie inspiration.
 
Pioneer said:
Hello gents

Does anyone have any drawings and specifications for the original proposed Mirage IVC, which was planed to be powered by two Pratt & Whitney J75 turbojets?

The French were to concentrate on and fielded the smaller, less powerful (and useful!) and most importantly for France ‘cheaper’ Mirage IVA supersonic bomber

Regards
Pioneer
Click to expand...
IMO, the Mirage IV had a LOT of potential that the French, sadly, didn't expand on-they could have made it the French equivalent of the contemporary Thunderchief or the modern-day Fullback, but instead pigeonholed it into a specialized role that fizzled out as soon as nearly every plane in their inventory could tote nukes.
 
acegeek9992 said:
Pioneer said:
Hello gents

Does anyone have any drawings and specifications for the original proposed Mirage IVC, which was planed to be powered by two Pratt & Whitney J75 turbojets?

The French were to concentrate on and fielded the smaller, less powerful (and useful!) and most importantly for France ‘cheaper’ Mirage IVA supersonic bomber

Regards
Pioneer
Click to expand...
IMO, the Mirage IV had a LOT of potential that the French, sadly, didn't expand on-they could have made it the French equivalent of the contemporary Thunderchief or the modern-day Fullback, but instead pigeonholed it into a specialized role that fizzled out as soon as nearly every plane in their inventory could tote nukes.
Click to expand...
Well... not quite.
Didn't worked that way at all.
- Mirage IVC would have been pretty good, but France could not afford a Phantom (took 40 years to find enough money for the Rafale)
- Mirage IIIC covered all interceptor needs
- France in 1958 was in turmoil
- Military budget was strained by Algeria war, NATO committments
- the Force de frappe was to be extremely expensive too, so something had to give
- Mirage IVA was turned into a makeshift bomber
- And interim, early IOC (1964) nuclear vector
- But right from 1958 De Gaulle made clear future belonged to solid-fuel IRBMs / SLBMs
- They eventually became operational in 1971 (Plateau d'Albion and Redoutable class submarines)
- Tactical nukes. Not strategic ones.
 
Also should be emphasised that (as noted above) the Mirage IVC was to have 2 J-75s (the same engine as the F-105, but 2 of them).
We are not talking about a F-105 or F-4 equivalent (or even a F-111 sized aircraft) but something rather larger, closer in scale to a B-58 or even to a Tu-22.
As the French airforce repeatedly had to walk back from plans for larger and/or twin engined fighters the idea that they could/ should have ever fielded Mirage IVCs is deeply unrealistic.
 
kaiserd said:
Also should be emphasised that (as noted above) the Mirage IVC was to have 2 J-75s (the same engine as the F-105, but 2 of them).
We are not talking about a F-105 or F-4 equivalent (or even a F-111 sized aircraft) but something rather larger, closer in scale to a B-58 or even to a Tu-22.
As the French airforce repeatedly had to walk back from plans for larger and/or twin engined fighters the idea that they could/ should have ever fielded Mirage IVCs is deeply unrealistic.
Click to expand...

You are confusing the Mirage IVB (2*J75 large bomber) with the Mirage IVC (Phantom like, two Atar 9).

There was no "French Arrow" in the sense of a big 2*J75 fighter or interceptor.

Mirage IVC came first in 1957 as "any fighter a touch larger than a Mirage IIIC" - which encompassed not only Phantom (twin jets) but also a F-105 look alike with a "super Atar" and 12 tons thrust.
By 1957-58
- Mirage IIIC = F-104
- Mirage IVC early variant = F-105, but "Super Atar" goes nowhere
- Mirage IVC 1958 = two Atar 9, a French Phantom

It was that second Mirage IVC that was stretched to the Atar 9K (6800 kg thrust) extreme limits: the 33 tons Mirage IVA (1964-2005) with extreme aerodynamic "polishing" as a palliative to the Atar limits.

So what was the Mirage IVB ? A French B-58 look alike (or Tu-22 indeed): a 60 mt Mach 2 bomber with two J75s.
It had a brief lifespan: March to September 1959, some bits of metal mockup were started.

By 1960 it was decided that Mirage IVA with aerial refueling (Vautour, Caravelle or C-135FR, finally) was the way to go. It would get a Force de Frappe IOC by October 1964 until Plateau d'Albion and Redoutable subs solid fuel missiles entered service: not before the early 1970's.
 
Archibald said:
kaiserd said:
Also should be emphasised that (as noted above) the Mirage IVC was to have 2 J-75s (the same engine as the F-105, but 2 of them).
We are not talking about a F-105 or F-4 equivalent (or even a F-111 sized aircraft) but something rather larger, closer in scale to a B-58 or even to a Tu-22.
As the French airforce repeatedly had to walk back from plans for larger and/or twin engined fighters the idea that they could/ should have ever fielded Mirage IVCs is deeply unrealistic.
Click to expand...

You are confusing the Mirage IVB (2*J75 large bomber) with the Mirage IVC (Phantom like, two Atar 9).

There was no "French Arrow" in the sense of a big 2*J75 fighter or interceptor.

Mirage IVC came first in 1957 as "any fighter a touch larger than a Mirage IIIC" - which encompassed not only Phantom (twin jets) but also a F-105 look alike with a "super Atar" and 12 tons thrust.
By 1957-58
- Mirage IIIC = F-104
- Mirage IVC early variant = F-105, but "Super Atar" goes nowhere
- Mirage IVC 1958 = two Atar 9, a French Phantom

It was that second Mirage IVC that was stretched to the Atar 9K (6800 kg thrust) extreme limits: the 33 tons Mirage IVA (1964-2005) with extreme aerodynamic "polishing" as a palliative to the Atar limits.

So what was the Mirage IVB ? A French B-58 look alike (or Tu-22 indeed): a 60 mt Mach 2 bomber with two J75s.
It had a brief lifespan: March to September 1959, some bits of metal mockup were started.

By 1960 it was decided that Mirage IVA with aerial refueling (Vautour, Caravelle or C-135FR, finally) was the way to go. It would get a Force de Frappe IOC by October 1964 until Plateau d'Albion and Redoutable subs solid fuel missiles entered service: not before the early 1970's.
Click to expand...
1649511537839.gif
 
Archibald said:
kaiserd said:
Also should be emphasised that (as noted above) the Mirage IVC was to have 2 J-75s (the same engine as the F-105, but 2 of them).
We are not talking about a F-105 or F-4 equivalent (or even a F-111 sized aircraft) but something rather larger, closer in scale to a B-58 or even to a Tu-22.
As the French airforce repeatedly had to walk back from plans for larger and/or twin engined fighters the idea that they could/ should have ever fielded Mirage IVCs is deeply unrealistic.
Click to expand...

You are confusing the Mirage IVB (2*J75 large bomber) with the Mirage IVC (Phantom like, two Atar 9).

There was no "French Arrow" in the sense of a big 2*J75 fighter or interceptor.

Mirage IVC came first in 1957 as "any fighter a touch larger than a Mirage IIIC" - which encompassed not only Phantom (twin jets) but also a F-105 look alike with a "super Atar" and 12 tons thrust.
By 1957-58
- Mirage IIIC = F-104
- Mirage IVC early variant = F-105, but "Super Atar" goes nowhere
- Mirage IVC 1958 = two Atar 9, a French Phantom

It was that second Mirage IVC that was stretched to the Atar 9K (6800 kg thrust) extreme limits: the 33 tons Mirage IVA (1964-2005) with extreme aerodynamic "polishing" as a palliative to the Atar limits.

So what was the Mirage IVB ? A French B-58 look alike (or Tu-22 indeed): a 60 mt Mach 2 bomber with two J75s.
It had a brief lifespan: March to September 1959, some bits of metal mockup were started.

By 1960 it was decided that Mirage IVA with aerial refueling (Vautour, Caravelle or C-135FR, finally) was the way to go. It would get a Force de Frappe IOC by October 1964 until Plateau d'Albion and Redoutable subs solid fuel missiles entered service: not before the early 1970's.
Click to expand...
Caravelle aerial refueler!
Is there anything on this fine forum in regards to such a study?

Regards
Pioneer
 
See http://ervc135-amicale.fr/CHOIX-Ravitailleur.htm and scroll to 'La Caravelle tanker':

Mission type de ravitaillement en vol de la Caravelle Tanker :

dérivée de la Caravelle commerciale par ajout de réservoir de de 6,4 tonnes de carburant placé dans le fuselage.
Cette version tanker de la Caravelle avait été proposée par Sud-Aviation à l'Armée de l'air pour ravitailler ses Vautours.
Les modifications apportées à l'appareil et le remplacement de la charge utile passagers par du combustible faisait que le poids à vide équipé était inférieur à celui de la Caravelle III . La Caravelle Tanker pouvait recevoir un total de 21 tonnes de carburant, dont 6,4 tonnes dans les réservoirs de fuselage ce qui lui permettait de ravitailler un ou deux Vautours selon les missions, chaque appareil pouvant recevoir un maximum de 7,5 tonnes.
L'avion aurait pu être équipé soit d'une nacelle Douglas sous le fuselage, soit d'un treuil à l'intérieur du fuselage déroulant un tuyau de 20 à 30 mètres de long (Système des avions ravitailleurs de la RAF).
Cette Caravelle Tanker avait été étudiée pour être rapidement remise en configuration transport de troupes.

La solution Caravelle n'a pas non plus paru satisfaisante.
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Archibald said:
By 1960 it was decided that Mirage IVA with aerial refueling (Vautour, Caravelle or C-135FR, finally) was the way to go. It would get a Force de Frappe IOC by October 1964 until Plateau d'Albion and Redoutable subs solid fuel missiles entered service: not before the early 1970's.
Click to expand...
I like the description by Gen Gallois: "On ne fait pas le petit, on ne fait pas le gros, on fait le petit gros".
(We're not making the little one, we're not making the fat one, we're making the chubby one)

Il faut avoir les ambitions de ses moyens...
 
So, Caravelle Tanker was allegedly able to refuel two planes, offloading each 5000kg of fuel at roughly 850Nm at the end of a fast cruise leg (M0.8) at 25kft and with a direct rtb at economic cruise speed. Holding time on station would have been 10min.
 
The site http://ervc135-amicale.fr/ is a gold mine if you understand French. It is the site of Escadrille de Ravitaillement en Vol / IFR squadron's alumni and is chock full of interesting information about IFR, by competent people who lived it.
See example attached about the Black Buck raids, with a full page description of technical issues at http://ervc135-amicale.fr/Black Buck_Malouines.pdf

(Yes I'm a little bit OT for this thread, but all other refs to Black Buck are in Alternative History and Future Speculation, and I rather loathe that section.)
 

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TomcatViP said:
So, Caravelle Tanker was allegedly able to refuel two planes, offloading each 5000kg of fuel at roughly 850Nm at the end of a fast cruise leg (M0.8) at 25kft and with a direct rtb at economic cruise speed. Holding time on station would have been 10min.
Click to expand...
Interesting, and quite logically a KC-135 would leave it behind in the dust. Even as airliners, Caravelle and 707 did not punched in the same league. And in the 707 case, the tanker variant was actually a different, earlier, separate aircraft optimized for the tanker job - and not the other way around: airliner to tanker.
And Vautour while much less vulnerable would have been worse as a tanker. Although the USN used Skyraiders and Skyhawks as tankers, so why not ?
I started a different thread on that topic.
 
dan_inbox said:
The site http://ervc135-amicale.fr/ is a gold mine if you understand French. It is the site of Escadrille de Ravitaillement en Vol / IFR squadron's alumni and is chock full of interesting information about IFR, by competent people who lived it.
See example attached about the Black Buck raids, with a full page description of technical issues at http://ervc135-amicale.fr/Black Buck_Malouines.pdf

(Yes I'm a little bit OT for this thread, but all other refs to Black Buck are in Alternative History and Future Speculation, and I rather loathe that section.)
Click to expand...
@dan_inbox : Thank you. Nice read indeed.
I noticed this nugget that I certainly had forgotten if I ever knew:
Les américains évaluaient nos besoins à 18 avions ravitailleurs et nous proposaient de poursuivre la fabrication de 6 C135F supplémentaires. Ce qui montre bien que que les américains ont été coopératifs dans cette histoire !
Nous n'avons pas saisi cette opportunité avant la fermeture annoncée de la chaine KC135 chez Boeing et nous en sommes restés à 12 C135F.
----------------------------**------------------------
Americans assessed our needs at 18 tanker aircraft and offered us to continue manufacturing 6 additional C135Fs. Which shows that Americans were cooperative in this story [France building a strategic force] !
We did not seize this opportunity before the announced closure of the KC135 chain at Boeing and were stuck with our 12 C135Fs.
Click to expand...
 
TomcatViP said:
dan_inbox said:
The site http://ervc135-amicale.fr/ is a gold mine if you understand French. It is the site of Escadrille de Ravitaillement en Vol / IFR squadron's alumni and is chock full of interesting information about IFR, by competent people who lived it.
See example attached about the Black Buck raids, with a full page description of technical issues at http://ervc135-amicale.fr/Black Buck_Malouines.pdf

(Yes I'm a little bit OT for this thread, but all other refs to Black Buck are in Alternative History and Future Speculation, and I rather loathe that section.)
Click to expand...
@dan_inbox : Thank you. Nice read indeed.
I noticed this nugget that I certainly had forgotten if I ever knew:
Les américains évaluaient nos besoins à 18 avions ravitailleurs et nous proposaient de poursuivre la fabrication de 6 C135F supplémentaires. Ce qui montre bien que que les américains ont été coopératifs dans cette histoire !
Nous n'avons pas saisi cette opportunité avant la fermeture annoncée de la chaine KC135 chez Boeing et nous en sommes restés à 12 C135F.
----------------------------**------------------------
Americans assessed our needs at 18 tanker aircraft and offered us to continue manufacturing 6 additional C135Fs. Which shows that Americans were cooperative in this story [France building a strategic force] !
We did not seize this opportunity before the announced closure of the KC135 chain at Boeing and were stuck with our 12 C135Fs.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Didn't knew that, all these tankers would have been very welcome when, in the wake of the strategic Mirage IVA, most of the FATAC (tactical force) converted to aerial refueling: F-100 first, then Jaguars, F1s, and the kitchen sink.
 
kaiserd said:
Also should be emphasised that (as noted above) the Mirage IVC was to have 2 J-75s (the same engine as the F-105, but 2 of them).
Click to expand...

Or alternatively two Orenda Iroquois. Per Harry Keast of Orenda, quoted in "Shutting Down the National Dream":

The French at one time negotiated for two hundred Iroquois for their Mirage IV at a cost of $200,000 per engine.
 
Not the IVC but the IVB large bomber.
Think of
-Atar 9 = J79
-Mirage IIIC = F-104
-Mirage IVC = Phantom
-Mirage IVA = Vigilante
-Mirage IVB = Hustler
 
By late 1958 range of the IVA was too short to reach Moscow. The issue was solved gradually over the next decade: aerial tankers, S-3 IRBMs, M1 SLBMs.
But in 1959 it wasn't obvious . So they tried to square the IVA into the IVB. But SNECMA couldn't get a 13 tons thrust engine so four foreign turbojets were considered:
-J75 (Pratt)
- Medway (RR)
- Olympus (Bristol)
- PS.13 Iroquois (Orenda)
Winner was J75, for nothing: IVB was screwed in the fall of 1959.
In passing, the agreement with Pratt later produced french TF30s.
And the Olympus discussions must have came in handy for Concorde.
Both in 1963...
 
THe political genesis to the Mirage IV A during the 50s; in French sadly.
 

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Archibald said:
By late 1958 range of the IVA was too short to reach Moscow. The issue was solved gradually over the next decade: aerial tankers, S-3 IRBMs, M1 SLBMs.
But in 1959 it wasn't obvious . So they tried to square the IVA into the IVB. But SNECMA couldn't get a 13 tons thrust engine so four foreign turbojets were considered:
-J75 (Pratt)
- Medway (RR)
- Olympus (Bristol)
- PS.13 Iroquois (Orenda)
Winner was J75, for nothing: IVB was screwed in the fall of 1959.
In passing, the agreement with Pratt later produced french TF30s.
And the Olympus discussions must have came in handy for Concorde.
Both in 1963...
Click to expand...
Some more precisions on the political facts related to the Defense under 5th Republic in the 50s and 60s


books.openedition.org

Armement et ve République : Fin des années 1950 - fin des années 1960

Les premières années de la ve République ont vu dans le domaine de l'armement une série de réorganisations et de décisions qui ont commandé pendant des années la situation de ce secteur, souvent jusqu'à aujourd'hui. Cet ouvrage, auquel participent aussi bien des historiens que des acteurs...
books.openedition.org books.openedition.org
 

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