Register here

Author Topic: Blohm&Voss P.214  (Read 6278 times)

Offline moin1900

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 422
Blohm&Voss P.214
« on: February 05, 2008, 05:17:05 am »
Hi everybody

I have found another strange and little known Secret Project !
Here is a little Text about the Blohm Voss P.214 manned FLA-BOMB.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blohm_&_Voss_P_214
http://www.luft46.com/pjtlstbv.html
Are there any other informations about this Project !

Thanks in advance
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 07:52:42 am by moin1900 »

Offline Justo Miranda

  • Secret Projects Master
  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 3341
Re: Blohm&Voss P.214
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2008, 08:27:30 am »
P.214 is also known as "Manuell Gesteuertes Raketen Projectil" in the specialised literature

Offline moin1900

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 422
Re: Blohm&Voss P.214
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2008, 11:09:42 am »
Hi everybody

Thank you for information about this project!  JUSTO
But I do not understand how it will be used against BOMBERS !
I always thought that it was a Ground Attack Plane to be used against Ships, Bridges etc.

Many greetings
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 07:52:33 am by moin1900 »

Offline moin1900

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 422
Re: Blohm&Voss P.214
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2016, 06:50:29 am »
Hi
Thanks a lot ! newsdeskdan

Karl Stöckel projects
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17345.msg166326.html#msg166326

Karl Stöckel Raketenjäger mit Luftstrahlantrieb
Span 7m
Length 7,2m
Wing area 10m²
Take-off weight 3000kg
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 06:55:33 am by moin1900 »

Offline Basil

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 144
Re: Blohm&Voss P.214
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2016, 12:22:15 pm »
Newdeskdan,

perhaps you have already mentioned it elsewhere but I have to ask: from where do you get this unbelievable amount of original documents (data sheets etc.) for german late war projects?

Offline Artie Bob

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Re: Blohm&Voss P.214
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2016, 04:06:28 pm »
IMHO, having worked with the microfilms of captured documents that originated at Wright Field for about 50 years is that microfilm collection possibly represents only about 50% or less of what material came to the USA and eventually was returned to Germany.  I have no direct proof for this, but the appearance of documents from the German archives of material not microfilmed in the USA leads me to this conclusion.  My belief is the material microfilmed represented the documents of then current interest to the USAAF and thus mostly late war items.  My interest was the Ju88, which had over 100 test aircraft,  but there are less documents microfilmed compared to the Ju 288 and 388.  A glimpse of the type material captured is hinted to in the incomplete accession lists of the Paris clearing house contained in the Naval intelligence microfilms at US NASM.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob         

Offline Artie Bob

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Re: Blohm&Voss P.214
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2016, 03:15:32 am »
I believe the temporary occupation of Dessau and other locations for JFM was by USA forces and they may have not shared all of the intelligence booty with the Paris clearing house.  There is a rumor that the entire JFM research library was absorbed into the US Library of Congress, but that is unconfirmed.  However, at least three Allied intelligence groups visited JFM and gathered material before that area was turned over to the USSR.  Those groups were the USSBS, USAAF and CIOS. My records are in storage and I am going by memory, but I believe US Naval Intelligence might also have exploited JFM sites.  Another group gathering data was the War Crimes evidence group. In general, the intelligence exploitation of Germany was a well organized Allied operation involving several organizations to which were assigned a large number of personnel dedicated to that task.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob 

Offline Artie Bob

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Re: Blohm&Voss P.214
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2016, 05:44:54 pm »
I cannot reply for the British end of the exploitation, but it appeared the US effort was both well staffed and organized.  Certainly the USSBS was a much larger undertaking than the BBS. The interviews and field reports make it pretty clear that the JFM sites were indeed visited by at least 3 and possibly 4 groups as noted.  That no material was returned to Dessau should not be surprising, as by the time USA returned documents, Dessau was in the Russian zone and things were not  very friendly.  I do believe that all USAAF material went to the BundesArchiv, not individual companies. 
I have heard reports that much of the British material was simply scrapped, in at least one instance this report came from a person who managed to salvage some items from an RAF facility.  He shared material with me and in it were documents not seen from any other sources.  As a check, in the partial accessions from Paris are lists of documents that went to the RAF.  If those documents can no longer can be located and there is no record of them being returned to Germany, then it is very likely there were destroyed.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob   

Offline steelpillow

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 346
  • So many projects, so little time...
Re: Blohm&Voss P.214
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2018, 10:25:26 am »
Two other sources suggest that this is a quite different machine:

Hugh Cowin, "Blohm & Voss Projects of World War II," Part I, Air Pictorial, Oct 1963, p.316, says: "Intended as a high-altitude day fighter, the P-214 was the first of [their "arrow wing"] projects to have full fins and rudders, and externally was otherwise identical to the P-212."

David Masters, "German Jet Genesis", Jane's, 1982 p.35: "...designed to meet the OKL specification of 1944. ... the P.214 was of tailless layout with wingtip control surfaces. the wing was swept back at 40°..." He also gives brief data which are very similar to those he gives for the P 212, including the HeS 011A engine. and armament of 3 Mk 108 cannon.

These descriptions are not really consistent with a throw-away mission, but are consistent with each other and each adds detail not present in the other.

As far as I can tell, the Internet meme for the suicide bomb goes back to a claimed quotation from Heinz Nowarra's Die Deutsche Luftrüstung 1933-1945. I have not checked the provenance of either Nowarra or the claim for what he said, can anybody help, there?
Cheers.

Online newsdeskdan

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 458
Re: Blohm&Voss P.214
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2018, 02:44:46 pm »
Two other sources suggest that this is a quite different machine:

Hugh Cowin, "Blohm & Voss Projects of World War II," Part I, Air Pictorial, Oct 1963, p.316, says: "Intended as a high-altitude day fighter, the P-214 was the first of [their "arrow wing"] projects to have full fins and rudders, and externally was otherwise identical to the P-212."

David Masters, "German Jet Genesis", Jane's, 1982 p.35: "...designed to meet the OKL specification of 1944. ... the P.214 was of tailless layout with wingtip control surfaces. the wing was swept back at 40°..." He also gives brief data which are very similar to those he gives for the P 212, including the HeS 011A engine. and armament of 3 Mk 108 cannon.

These descriptions are not really consistent with a throw-away mission, but are consistent with each other and each adds detail not present in the other.

As far as I can tell, the Internet meme for the suicide bomb goes back to a claimed quotation from Heinz Nowarra's Die Deutsche Luftrüstung 1933-1945. I have not checked the provenance of either Nowarra or the claim for what he said, can anybody help, there?

You should have been here back in 2016 when I was posting up original performance graphs for the P 214 - subsequently deleted. The document I have, dated November 20, 1944, describes it as 'Bemannte Fla - Bombe'. It had a wing area of 10m2 and a wingspan of 7m, with an aspect ratio of 4:9. Take-off weight was 3600kg including a fuel load of 1700kg. From engines on (presumably rockets) it was to accelerate on the ground until it reached 700-800km/h, whereupon it would pull up at a 45-degree angle and climb to 52,000ft+. From this altitude, its horizontal range is given as about 90km.
I don't have a picture of it though.

Offline steelpillow

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 346
  • So many projects, so little time...
Re: Blohm&Voss P.214
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2018, 03:00:54 am »
Thanks, Dan. These numbers are nothing like Masters, his are very similar to the P 212. But it's interesting that Cowin seems to be drawing from the same sources as Masters.
I have found Cowin to be generally fairly reliable, but he appears wrong here to say that this was the first arrow wing with full fins and rudders, as the P 212.03 had them. I wonder if there might have been a P 212.04 or some other muddle over project identification.
Cheers.

Offline Justo Miranda

  • Secret Projects Master
  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 3341
Re: Blohm&Voss P.214
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2018, 01:21:37 pm »
Hi

Offline steelpillow

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 346
  • So many projects, so little time...
Re: Blohm&Voss P.214
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2018, 02:41:07 am »
Thank you here, too.

However these drawings are both variants of the MGRP. Dan Sharp (our newsdeskdan) has confirmed that the MGRP proposal did exist but it was by Karl Stockel at the DVL, a research lab, and was not a B&V project after all - see his Luftwaffe: Secret Bombers of the Third Reich, pp.127-9.

The B&V P.214 must have been something else.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 02:47:28 am by steelpillow »
Cheers.

Online newsdeskdan

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 458
Re: Blohm&Voss P.214
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2018, 03:35:30 am »
Thank you here, too.

However these drawings are both variants of the MGRP. Dan Sharp (our newsdeskdan) has confirmed that the MGRP proposal did exist but it was by Karl Stockel at the DVL, a research lab, and was not a B&V project after all - see his Luftwaffe: Secret Bombers of the Third Reich, pp.127-9.

The B&V P.214 must have been something else.

As far as I can tell, they are two distinct projects. There's no known picture of the P 214 so it's very difficult to be certain, but the MGRP appears as part of a Stockel proposal which also includes some of his other projects. There's no mention of Blohm & Voss in this.

Online hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 21003
Re: Blohm&Voss P.214
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2018, 04:30:15 am »
Amazing drawings my dear Justo.