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Author Topic: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions  (Read 15768 times)

Offline Maveric

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Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« on: January 11, 2008, 04:36:44 am »
Hi all,

today no Caproni-Fighter. In Ali d'Italia Caproni Ca.133 I have found little info´s about the unbuild versions of the Ca.133, but no drawing or technical data. If you have drawings, 3views or technical data about the Ca.141, Ca.151 and Ca.177 please let me know ::)

Servus Maveric
I see you on the dark side of the moon.

Offline airman

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2008, 05:18:05 am »
Hi all,

today no Caproni-Fighter. In Ali d'Italia Caproni Ca.133 I have found little info´s about the unbuild versions of the Ca.133, but no drawing or technical data. If you have drawings, 3views or technical data about the Ca.141, Ca.151 and Ca.177 please let me know ::)

Servus Maveric
well probably documents about these projects are gone or probably these projects was remained incomplete
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Offline Skybolt

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2008, 09:16:37 am »
Well.....  ;D

Offline airman

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2008, 10:31:28 am »
Caproni 141 was bi-engines  version of Ca133 with two Gnome-Rhone K.14 of 880HP, Ca151 was version proposed with three Asso XI RC Engines  (Piaggio I suppose) ,Caproni 177 was a version proposed with two engines Piaggio VII ( left and right ) @ center one engines Alfa 125  ( this proposed version was replaced by produced Ca 148)
These was, surely, proposed version !
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Offline smurf

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2008, 12:49:17 pm »
Well.....  Grin
Does that mean you are writing? Or will you just grin again?

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2008, 07:26:32 am »
No, simply is that Caproni's designs are not lost at all, simply they are kept in a very closely guarded archive, largely not documented, and accessible without restrictions only to a couple of people, me NOT included, of those one is no more interested in unbuilt projects and the other has a lot of work to do.
Research is in progress, but as for now it is concentrated on the CAB projects. I'll post something during the next few days, promise. Caproni sequence, Caproni Taliedo I mean (Ca-1XX), is the least documented in published sources, expecially from Ca-150 on, drawing-wise.

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2008, 12:08:20 pm »
published sources

Hi Skybolt,

I have an Italian book on Caproni projects. The title is "Gli Aeroplani della Caproni Aeronautica Bergamasca" by Rosario Abate, Edizione dell'Ateneo & Bizzarri, 1978. VOLUME SECONDO 1920-1946.

It is an excellent work with many projects drawings and I would like to acquire or obtain copies from the other two volumes in the series
VOLUME PRIMO "Dalle Origini al Ca 135 e derivati"
VOLUME TERZO "Dal Ca 320 al 'Corsaro' (Ca 381)

Could you help me, please?

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2008, 01:43:58 pm »
Ah, Justo... Rosario Abate was the third man having unrestricted access to the Caproni's archive...
As for the CAB volumes, I can probably find the first for you on the antiquarian market. It is very rare. The third was never published, Rosario passed away before finishing it.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 01:54:20 pm by Skybolt »

Online Artie Bob

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2008, 02:20:22 pm »
A number of years ago (sometime in the 70s), a freind visited Italy and attended a dinner with Caproni, who was quite old at that time.  My freind indicated that Caproni's daughter was a historian and in charge of the archive material.  Was this accurate?  Is the lady still alive?

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

Offline airman

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2008, 02:45:57 pm »
No, simply is that Caproni's designs are not lost at all, simply they are kept in a very closely guarded archive, largely not documented, and accessible without restrictions only to a couple of people, me NOT included, of those one is no more interested in unbuilt projects and the other has a lot of work to do.
Research is in progress, but as for now it is concentrated on the CAB projects. I'll post something during the next few days, promise. Caproni sequence, Caproni Taliedo I mean (Ca-1XX), is the least documented in published sources, expecially from Ca-150 on, drawing-wise.

could be one of my dreams know the projects of Caproni !
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Offline Skybolt

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2008, 12:48:42 am »
Oh, yes, Maria Fede Caproni is alive and well, God bless her. She is the "ambassador" of the Caproni family in Rome. The archive of drawings and projects is not her domain.There is another archive related to the Caproni family, that held in Trento at Museo Caproni, but it is still less accessible. COULD contain some very interesting things, as personal notes of some leading designers (I have an hint of at least one).

Offline archipeppe

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2008, 05:58:03 am »
I've found out, at www.chandelle.net, these two drawings about Caproni's fighter project.
Sincerely I don't know how much fictional, speculative or based upon real designs they are....

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2008, 06:21:05 am »
Both are more or less true. The drawings are based on some info being published just after the war. I have fairly good info on the 183. On the 380 I have the background info and some drawings, but not detailed, still. See here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2411.msg20201.html#msg20201

Offline borovik

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2008, 11:40:44 am »
I have fairly good info on the 183.

I dispose the small scheme from book J.Thompson "Italian civil and warplanes, 1930-1945" (1963). And already more than five years POSSESSED purpose to find more detailed information ,particularly qualitative drawing (as far as possible) this astonishing plane, for making the models 1/72.
 Best Regards,
 Anatoliy.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 02:20:28 am by borovik »

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2008, 02:58:20 pm »
I have fairly good info on the 183.
Carpe diem, Marco.
I dispose the small scheme from book J.Thompson "Italian civil and warplanes, 1930-1945" (1963). And already more than five years POSSESSED purpose to find more detailed information ,particularly qualitative drawing (as far as possible) this astonishing plane, for making the models 1/72.
 Best Regards,
 Anatoliy.


Well, I see that we all have the same information. I was going to post the same drawings.
I have tried an speculative reconstruction of the Ca 183. Please see attached.

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2008, 03:11:54 pm »
On the 380 I have the background info and some drawings, but not detailed

I have a small drawing of the Corsaro that I believe is the same that has been published once and again.
I am also adding some information on the Caproni Vizzola MCT. It is a very interesting fighter design. It could either have the Alfa 101, D.B. 605 or Reggiane L.105 engines located behind the pilot with a Bugatti style lateral power shaft

Offline archipeppe

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2008, 11:47:37 pm »
Justo you're great!!!! (Justo tu es mas grande!!!!).

Offline red admiral

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2008, 04:05:19 am »
Mr Miranda,

I'm curious as to why in the section view of the Ca.183 you included a radial engine behind the pilot. Most sources state that it was a Fiat A.30 inline.

Included is a piece of an article on the Ca.183/Re 2007 in Italian. It includes more details of the powerplant system, allowing the DB 605 to produce 1250hp at 15000m!

Also, do you happen to have any information on the Alfa-Romeo 101 engine pictured?

Thanks
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 04:09:03 am by red admiral »

Offline Andrewjs2007

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2008, 05:13:48 am »
Justo

Could you re-post the 3rd image in your post on the Caproni-ZVizzola FCM?

I get only the top of the image when I try to view/download it

Cheers

ANdrew

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2008, 06:01:51 am »
The Vizzola fighter is the famous Trigona project... drawings has been lately published in "Gente dell'Aria 4".
The 101 is the Alfa 1101. Extensive coverage in Ali Antiche June and December 1996. Interesting engine, BTW, an unconventional design. Have photos. Planned for use in the mysterious Alfa Pomigliano 1902, probably a re-elaboration of the AU MB-902 by Bellomo. The L-105 was a high-altitude derivative of the L-103, the compressor rating at a normal altitude of 10000 mts. Have drawing.
Italian high-altitude fighter designs late in the war are an interesting topic. The DB-605 was involved in two different configurations, one with a A30 driven compressor with burner (like in the Re-2005SF and R), the other with an exhaust gas turbocompressor, like in (perhaps) the Caproni Vizzola (again) Sagittario I of march 1943; that was probably the 605 D.
Ahah, Nico is one of the major responsibles of the Re-2007 legend... even if now is backing down, a little at a time... ;)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 01:49:10 pm by Skybolt »

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2008, 06:14:32 am »
Found it ! I knew I had it ! An inboard and plan of the 183. Will post this night, stay tuned. Don't have scanner here.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2008, 01:42:25 pm »
Mmmmm Justo, I think you'll have to rework your drawing..  ;). Start new thread.
And the colour camouflage is all wrong: first, by the time the Ca-183bis would have been flying it'd be 1944, and already in 1943 the camouflage was dark green overall. Besides this, fantasy for fantasy, a high altitude fighter would have gained little from a mediterranean low-altitude camo...  ::)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 01:52:28 pm by Skybolt »

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2008, 03:10:32 pm »
I think you'll have to rework your drawing..  ;).

That is what usually happens when working with insufficient information. All the articles I have read on the Ca-183 bis say that it had a RADIAL engine A-30. As the A-30 is an in line, I assumed that it was a typo and that the author actually meant A-80. That and the diagram of the first Campini project lead me to thinks that the air-intakes were to refrigerate the back engine.

It does not matter, thruth is always best. I will gladly rebuild the drawing.

Thanks for your valuable information!

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2008, 03:13:00 pm »
Most sources state that it was a Fiat A.30 inline.

I have three different sources saying that the Fiat A.30 was a radial engine with 700 h.p. and all of them were wrong. The Fiat A.30 was an in-line V-12 water cooled engine!

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2008, 03:15:06 pm »
Could you re-post the 3rd image in your post on the Caproni-ZVizzola FCM?

Sure, I repost the third drawing

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2008, 03:18:06 pm »
The Vizzola fighter is the famous Trigona project...

I could not find the Spanish publication that was the original source for the MCT drawings.
I bought the drawing from Bon Banka http://www.bobsairdoc.com code Sb5553/OD a couple of years ago.
Perhaps our friend Pometablava may help identify the source........

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2008, 03:19:27 pm »
(Justo tu es mas grande!!!!).

That is not Justo, my friend. I am out of my turf in this forum, I just came here to learn.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2008, 04:19:46 pm »
Drawings and data of the Caproni Vizzola MCT (Monoposto Caccia Trigona) come from IARB (Italian Branch of Air Britain) 1/1974 written by Rosario Abate who in turn found them in the Caproni archive (where they remain). The entire collection on CD of IARB (which was the ancestor of Aerofan, and completely written in English, heroic times of the Italian aviation history research) is available on my friend Giorgio Apostolo site (www.apostoloeditore.com) . In Gente dell'Aria 4 there is an additional couple of drawings, an inboard profile and a 3-view of the MCT  with the L-105 engine, from Rosario too.
Augh !

Offline borovik

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2008, 12:11:54 am »
Most sources state that it was a Fiat A.30 inline.

I have three different sources saying that the Fiat A.30 was a radial engine with 700 h.p. and all of them were wrong. The Fiat A.30 was an in-line V-12 water cooled engine!
Confirm the rightness Mr. Miranda. From abovementioned me (p.1) of the source follows that FIAT A.30 (700 hp) was radial.
Express ALL gratitude for extensive material.!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 12:29:48 am by borovik »

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2008, 01:21:39 am »
This is definitive: the A30 was an inline. Period. See attached and here (if you really need it):http://www2.polito.it/strutture/cemed/museovirtuale/memoria/4-02/4-201/42010306.htm, the A30 is the last down on the right.

Offline Antonio

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2008, 01:46:51 am »
Justo,

Drawings are from Spanish magazine "Flaps". They published a series on Italian WW2 aircraft.


Offline borovik

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2008, 06:02:47 am »
Thank you Skybolt for comprehensive answer.
"...THE TRUTH where that beside..."
Due to this forum truth becomes obvious.

Offline Nick Sumner

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2008, 06:03:50 am »
Forgive my ignorance but what is the English meaning of the Italian word 'Trigona'? Babelfish and 3 online dictionaries don't know it?  ???

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2008, 09:58:40 am »
Trigona is the surname of the designer (he was a Colonel of Regia Aeronautica Engineer Role)

Offline blackkite

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2016, 09:17:05 pm »
Hi!  Caproni Vizzola MCT's Reggiane L105 engine.
Can I see propeller lateral drive shaft at the bottom drawing?

MCT three side view drawing.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3291.0;attach=26787;image
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 09:50:24 pm by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2016, 09:35:26 pm »
Hi!
Alfa 1101 engine.
"The AR-101-RC-45/II with two compressors, (also a RC 37/87 with a compressor) but its main feature is that it was a great four star of seven cylinders engine, total 28 cylinders. Designed by Wifredo Ricart in 1942. Engine referenced also as AR-1101.

It cubicaba 50'25 litres and gave 2300 Horsepower (that of a compressor)"

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/really-big-powerful-liquid-cooled-engines-the-best-approach.37001/

http://aerospaceengines.blogspot.jp/2012/06/wifredo-ricart-2-etapa-italiana.html
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 10:02:51 pm by blackkite »

Offline hesham

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2016, 05:24:31 am »
My dear Blackkite,

what was this caproni-Vizzola MCT,a fighter or something else ?,and what its relationship
with Ca.133 ?.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 05:37:38 am by hesham »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2016, 05:38:28 am »
Hi my dear heshan-san!
According to my auto Italian-English trasnlator,
MCT(Monoposto Caccia Trigona) is a Single-Seat Fighter Trigona.
So I think MCT was a some kind of sigle seat fighter.
I'm not sure the meaning of Trigona. What is this? ??? Triangle?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 05:44:50 am by blackkite »

Offline hesham

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2016, 06:23:56 am »
Thank you my dear Blackkite,


Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2016, 07:41:36 am »
Hi my dear heshan-san!
According to my auto Italian-English trasnlator,
MCT(Monoposto Caccia Trigona) is a Single-Seat Fighter Trigona.
So I think MCT was a some kind of sigle seat fighter.
I'm not sure the meaning of Trigona. What is this? ??? Triangle?

Trigona is the surname of the designer (he was a Colonel of Regia Aeronautica Engineer Role)
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2016, 01:32:02 pm »
Justo Miranda had already posted those Caproni Vizzola MCT drawings in Reply #15.

Perhaps the MCT material should be moved to Italian projects of WWII? Alternatively, a separate thread for Trigona projects?

BTW: Can anyone confirm whether it was Ing Ercole Trigona or Col Emmanuele Trigona who designed the MCT and Sauro 1/Tricap?

Offline blackkite

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Re: Caproni Ca.133 unbuild versions
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2016, 03:07:48 pm »
Hi my dear heshan-san!
According to my auto Italian-English trasnlator,
MCT(Monoposto Caccia Trigona) is a Single-Seat Fighter Trigona.
So I think MCT was a some kind of sigle seat fighter.
I'm not sure the meaning of Trigona. What is this? ??? Triangle?

Trigona is the surname of the designer (he was a Colonel of Regia Aeronautica Engineer Role)
Thanks!! :D

Offline hesham

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Offline Arjen

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Re: Re: REGIANNE L-105 mid-engined fighter project
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2019, 08:06:43 am »
Hasan, your link is incomplete, it should be
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/197858-progetto-tech-tree-aerei-italiani/&page=170&tab=comments#comment-6292533
Quote
Il Caproni Vizzola MCT ( Monoposto Caccia Trigona) , basato sul "sauro" (un aereo da addestramento/turismo di vari anni prima ), aveva una certa somiglianza con il Do.335 e venne proposto in varie versioni . La base aveva il DB605 ed era armata con 1x20 mm e 4 da 12,7 ...velocita' di 706 km/h e 6000m in 5 minuti . Pesava poco piu' di 3 tonnellate .
Altre versioni erano piu' grandi e con motori "teorici" ma piu' potenti come Reggiane L.105 , l'Alfa 101 e l'Alfa 101 Maggiorato che dovevano dare velocita' di 740, 760 e 800 km/h rispettivamente.  Queste versioni avevano pero' un armamento abbastanza assurdo di 6 mitragliatrici da 12.7 ....
sotto la versione con il 605
Again, google translate.
Quote
The Caproni Vizzola MCT (Monoposto Caccia Trigona), based on the "sauro" (a training aircraft / tourism of several years before), had a certain resemblance to the Do.335 and was proposed in various versions. The base had the DB605 and was armed with 1x20 mm and 4 by 12.7 ... speeds of 706 km / h and 6000m in 5 minutes. It weighed just over 3 tons.
Other versions were bigger and with "theoretical" but more powerful engines like Reggiane L.105, Alfa 101 and Alfa 101 Maggiorato which had to give speeds of 740, 760 and 800 km / h respectively. These versions, however, had a rather absurd weaponry of 6 machine guns of 12.7 ....
Below,  the version with [DB]605
Shouldn't this be in a Caproni thread?

Indeed ! Split and merged
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 09:02:52 am by Jemiba »