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Author Topic: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects  (Read 22805 times)

Offline Avimimus

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2013, 12:57:17 pm »

Mistel:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3183.msg25666.html#msg25666

There was also a variant for firing rockets into bomber formations apparently. Not as crazy as the Lippish P.04 with the 88mm's though...
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 01:08:10 pm by Avimimus »

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2013, 01:20:15 pm »
Topics merged, and from Griehl/Dressel "He 177-277-274" a 3-view
of an early design for the He 177B-5, featuring a nose wheel landing gear.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 01:33:21 pm by Jemiba »
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline hesham

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2014, 06:11:27 am »
Hi,


here is the Heinkel He.177 V.1 or P.1041 drawing.

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2014, 07:53:53 am »
To prevent misunderstandings: It' the drawing of the windtunnel model (!) of the
He 177. the stick protruding from the tail isn't a part of the aircraft, but just the
attachement point and measurements are just for that model, too.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline hesham

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2014, 07:54:49 am »
OK my dear Jemiba.

Offline SpicyJuan

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2015, 04:02:41 pm »
Hi, could someone please tell me the actual max bomb load of the He 277 (not He 177B)? Many thanks.

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2015, 07:18:56 am »
In "Heinkel 177-277-274" by Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel, the highest
bombload for the He 277 is given as 5,600 kg (for the version with a fuselage width
of 1,750 mm), resulting in a range of 8,600 km. For the maximum range of 11,100 km,
bombload was reduce to 3,000 kg.

(will merge this thread with the older one about He 177 versions and projects, to be found
here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3183.msg218413.html#msg218413 )
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 07:21:38 am by Jemiba »
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline SpicyJuan

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2015, 10:40:59 am »
But how? That makes absolutely no sense as the He 177's max payload was 7200 kg. Was the He 277's bomb bay smaller?:o

EDIT: After some quick calculations it turns out the He 177's bomb bay is 7,560mm long, 1750mm wide, and 900mm deep. This compares to 7,500mm long 1,500mm wide (don't have the depth) for the tailwheel version, and 1,750mm wide, and 7,000mm long (don't have the depth) tricycle version of the He 277. But why? The He 277 is slightly larger, and both don't hold a candle to the Me 264 who in comparison an entire 1 and 2 meters shorter to the He 177 and 277 respectively and can hold and absolute maximium of 2x SC2500 and 4 x SC1800 bombs which is 13200 kg or 29,000 lbs compared to the absolute maximum of the He 177 which is 4 x SC1700 which is 6800kg or 15200lbs.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 11:07:49 am by SpicyJuan »

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2015, 11:37:34 am »
The He 277 is said to have used the fuselage of the He 177 A-7. The
aim of its construction was range, not bomb load, AFAIK, so the weight
of the biggest possible bomb load may not be that relevant.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline SpicyJuan

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2015, 12:19:01 pm »
The He 277 is said to have used the fuselage of the He 177 A-7. The
aim of its construction was range, not bomb load, AFAIK, so the weight
of the biggest possible bomb load may not be that relevant.

Huh, really? It seems to me that the He 277 had a completely different fuselage:


Offline Apophenia

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2015, 01:50:09 pm »
... It seems to me that the He 277 had a completely different fuselage:

Initial production He 277B-5/R2s followed the pattern of the He 277 V3, using He 177A-5/R8 airframes (modified with twin tailplanes).

The unbuilt He 277B-6/R1 would have had extended wings but used the He 177A-6/R2 fuselage. The He 277B-6/R2 would have begun the major fuselage changes (having its width reduced, its bomb bay shortened, and the cockpit glazing shape revised). The He 277B-6/R3 had its cockpit section revised again, the forward fuselage deepened, and the overall fuselage length increased ... so, in effect, a completely new fuselage.

The last The He 277 built was the sole 'B-7 which employed a standard He 177A-7 fuselage.

This is all from an ancient source -- Wm Green's Bombers and Reconnaissance Aircraft Volume Nine of 1967 -- but the information is repeated in Kay & Smith's 2002 German Aircraft of the Second World War.

Offline SpicyJuan

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2015, 06:38:30 pm »
Ok, thank you very much. I found this weird tidbit as well:


Offline SpicyJuan

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2015, 09:57:16 pm »
... It seems to me that the He 277 had a completely different fuselage:

Initial production He 277B-5/R2s followed the pattern of the He 277 V3, using He 177A-5/R8 airframes (modified with twin tailplanes).

The unbuilt He 277B-6/R1 would have had extended wings but used the He 177A-6/R2 fuselage. The He 277B-6/R2 would have begun the major fuselage changes (having its width reduced, its bomb bay shortened, and the cockpit glazing shape revised). The He 277B-6/R3 had its cockpit section revised again, the forward fuselage deepened, and the overall fuselage length increased ... so, in effect, a completely new fuselage.

The last The He 277 built was the sole 'B-7 which employed a standard He 177A-7 fuselage.

This is all from an ancient source -- Wm Green's Bombers and Reconnaissance Aircraft Volume Nine of 1967 -- but the information is repeated in Kay & Smith's 2002 German Aircraft of the Second World War.

Upon further review, I believe that may be incorrect as the He 177B-5 was a four-engined A-5 and the He 177B-7 was a four-engined He 177A-7 (this is important because in old literature, the He 177B and He 277 are know as the same aircraft under different designations when in reality they were quite different).
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 09:59:11 pm by SpicyJuan »

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2015, 11:47:34 am »
Yes, I've seen online assertions that He 277B-5 as a 'cover designation' was an erroneous  post-war assumption. Are you aware of any documentary evidence that backs this up?

For others, in Dec 1943, some 120 four-engined He 177B-5s ordered under Programm 225-1. This production order was then recinded by Programm 226-1 of July 1944.
German Aircraft Industry and Production, 1933-1945, F-A Vajda & P Darcy, Airlife Publishing, Ramsbury, Wilts, 1998

Offline SpicyJuan

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2015, 04:12:56 pm »
Yes, I've seen online assertions that He 277B-5 as a 'cover designation' was an erroneous  post-war assumption. Are you aware of any documentary evidence that backs this up?

For others, in Dec 1943, some 120 four-engined He 177B-5s ordered under Programm 225-1. This production order was then recinded by Programm 226-1 of July 1944.
German Aircraft Industry and Production, 1933-1945, F-A Vajda & P Darcy, Airlife Publishing, Ramsbury, Wilts, 1998

Manfred Griehl's and Joachim Dressler's Heinkel: He 177,277,274 completely blows the cover-designation story, but alas it is infested with nasty typo's such as:



Which leave doubt and second-guessing everywhere. At this point, there seems to be so much confusion in other literature caused by the interchangeability between He 177B and typos in the book (a good example is wikipedia which seems to get a lot right but then confuses the specifications with the He 177B!), that it will take a lot to convince me if a particular point is actually referring to the He 277 and not the He 177B. Thankfully I'mm also getting the original German version (of Heinkel: He 177,277,274) to see exactly what's what.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 04:20:24 pm by SpicyJuan »