Sidewinder AIM-9X Development - Have Thrust, Box Office, Boa, Top Hat

GWrecks

GWrecks

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Designation-Systems mentioned in an article about the AIM-9 Sidewinder some "USAF, Classified" proposed replacement called the Have Thrust. Obviously it's classified...but does anyone at least have speculation as to what Have Thrust actually is? The other missiles listed appear to be variations on the Sidewinder itself, so I'm wondering if Have Thrust is based upon it too.

Could it be related to Have Dash, by chance? And which one, the original or Have Dash II?

↓↓Article↓↓


EDIT: I've decided to just make this about all of the AIM-9 replacements mentioned in that section of the article, since now I'm not sure if anything but Boa is actually based upon the AIM-9.

EDIT: OK, found some information on Wikipedia (Duh!). Boa and Box Office were both Sidewinder derivatives that were direct predecessors to AIM-9X, designed for internal carriage in stealth aircraft.

Still doesn't do much to explain what Top Hat and Have Thrust are.
 
I know this has been discussed before, but since I don't recall the names of them I can't search for them. Does anybody here recall the names of these two potential AIM-9X missiles? At one point it was a program to replace the Sidewinder rather than a modification of the existing missile.

raytheon.jpg
 
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Raytheon Box Office - rotate to view
 

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The other AAM which also was part of the AIM-9 replacement effort was Hughes Top Hat

I have another AAM system which was also being developed during the same time frame, call Kestrel...I know little about it ,anyone can shed some light on this program?
 

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The inboard missile in the picture I posted looks more like the Loral Kestrel.
 
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From Flight Global:

"The US Naval Air Systems Command, which led the AIM-9X, selected the Hughes Evolved Sidewinder bid, a decision which provoked confusion and consternation among the competition.

Both Hughes and Raytheon offered two bids, one based around the 127mm Sidewinder body, the others around larger diameter rocket motors for increased kinematic performance."
 
Box Office is sure have unique seeker. I wonder if it can rotate to change point of view or it's fixed like THAAD seeker.

The Kestrel seems to be Wing control, which kind of unique for supposedly dogfight AAM which usually canard or tail control.
 
From "Defense & Aerospace Companies - Volume II reports": Loral Aeronutronics recent Sidewinder involvement was with BGT from Germany for the AIM9X. BGT provided a imaging infrared seeker based on TELL for this system.
 
Boa (NWC China Lake)


Rktr-910703-04.jpg
As part of the preparation work for launching the BOA-M missile, Naval Weapons Center's Patrick Donohue, of the System's Engineering Division's Missiles Systems Branch (Code 3621), reads a strip chart recorder ensuring signals for currents and voltages are correct. The readings transmitted from the recorder let Donohue know if there is enough power available to fire the BOA-M missile, China Lake, 03 July 1991, Rocketeer photo.
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Rktr-910703-01.jpg
A BOA-M PTV-1 (Programed Test Vehicle-One) is installed on a NWC China Lake A-7E Corsair II. Since 1987, the Intercept Weapons Department's BOA program team has been investigating technology which supports future generations of Short Range Missiles (SRMs) beyond the AIM-9R Sidewinder now undergoing developmental testing at the NWC. The program is considered a major step in the air-to-air missile evolution. China Lake, 03 July 1991, Rocketeer photo by by Don Cornelius, TID.
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Rktr-910703-02.jpg
AIM-9M and BOA-M missiles
NWC F/A-18 Hornet with Sidewinder AIM-9M and BOA-M missiles, China Lake, 3 July 1991. The BOA-M (left) and Sidewinder AIM-9M (right) are both canard controlled missiles which use forward fins to provide control inputs. The major difference between the two missiles are the sizes of the tails (BOA-M is much smaller). Benefits from reducing the size of the tail on the BOA-M are better maneuverability and a greater drag reduction which enables the missile to fly further and faster. China Lake, 03 July 1991, Rocketeer photo.
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The Sidewinder Story / The Evolution of the AIM-9 Missile

AIM-9 Sidewinder missile
www.ausairpower.net
The Naval Weapons Center has also been working on modified AIM-9Ms under the Boa-M program, in which a standard airframe was fitted with smaller AIM-9D canards and a smaller lower drag set of tail surfaces, and a digital autopilot. At least one test firing is known to have been carried out, to the detriment of a QF-86 drone.
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overscan (PaulMM) said:
Boa (NWC China Lake)


View attachment 678071
As part of the preparation work for launching the BOA-M missile, Naval Weapons Center's Patrick Donohue, of the System's Engineering Division's Missiles Systems Branch (Code 3621), reads a strip chart recorder ensuring signals for currents and voltages are correct. The readings transmitted from the recorder let Donohue know if there is enough power available to fire the BOA-M missile, China Lake, 03 July 1991, Rocketeer photo.
Click to expand...
View attachment 678072
A BOA-M PTV-1 (Programed Test Vehicle-One) is installed on a NWC China Lake A-7E Corsair II. Since 1987, the Intercept Weapons Department's BOA program team has been investigating technology which supports future generations of Short Range Missiles (SRMs) beyond the AIM-9R Sidewinder now undergoing developmental testing at the NWC. The program is considered a major step in the air-to-air missile evolution. China Lake, 03 July 1991, Rocketeer photo by by Don Cornelius, TID.
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View attachment 678073
AIM-9M and BOA-M missiles
NWC F/A-18 Hornet with Sidewinder AIM-9M and BOA-M missiles, China Lake, 3 July 1991. The BOA-M (left) and Sidewinder AIM-9M (right) are both canard controlled missiles which use forward fins to provide control inputs. The major difference between the two missiles are the sizes of the tails (BOA-M is much smaller). Benefits from reducing the size of the tail on the BOA-M are better maneuverability and a greater drag reduction which enables the missile to fly further and faster. China Lake, 03 July 1991, Rocketeer photo.
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The Sidewinder Story / The Evolution of the AIM-9 Missile

AIM-9 Sidewinder missile
www.ausairpower.net
The Naval Weapons Center has also been working on modified AIM-9Ms under the Boa-M program, in which a standard airframe was fitted with smaller AIM-9D canards and a smaller lower drag set of tail surfaces, and a digital autopilot. At least one test firing is known to have been carried out, to the detriment of a QF-86 drone.
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I am getting a Error 404 for the link.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 
Wonder how advanced the new seeker will be over the last seeker head for the AIM-9X Sidewinder? It would be interesting to get a comparison of the two seekers in a test scenario to see just how effective the new seeker would be.
 
FighterJock said:
Wonder how advanced the new seeker will be over the last seeker head for the AIM-9X Sidewinder? It would be interesting to get a comparison of the two seekers in a test scenario to see just how effective the new seeker would be.
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I would expect it to have greater ability to discern countermeasures, and possibly some features to deal with DIRCM.
 
TomS said:
It's driving me nuts that the art does not match the text description -- each launcher is shown with 9 cells, not 6.
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No, wait, I finally parsed it. Each "cell" is two AIM-9X canisters, and each stack is a magazine of 6 missiles. So yes, 18 missiles per launcher.

Edit: better image that shows this more clearly.

1696726463184.png
 
MadRat said:
How much range is lost when it goes for a target behind the launcher.
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It's going to lose range, period, due to being ground-launched (Just like the MIM-72 Chaparral). If you want a ground-launched AIM-9X (MIM-9X in this case) to have the same range as an air-launched missile it will need some sort of high-thrust launch booster.
 
NMaude said:
It's going to lose range, period, due to being ground-launched (Just like the MIM-72 Chaparral). If you want a ground-launched AIM-9X (MIM-9X in this case) to have the same range as an air-launched missile it will need some sort of high-thrust launch booster.
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Or a new, dual-pulse motor. First pulse is high mass flow for a short time to get the missile moving, second pulse is lower mass flow over a longer time. Could probably copy the SLAMRAAM engine composition.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Or a new, dual-pulse motor. First pulse is high mass flow for a short time to get the missile moving, second pulse is lower mass flow over a longer time. Could probably copy the SLAMRAAM engine composition.
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Wasn't there a new Rocket motor for aim-9x in the Block III Version? Think it Had Like 50km ish range
 
Its a question how old your Missile is. Iris-T SLS which is Iris-T Air to Air has around 10-15km when ground launched but has in Air to Air some 25km and more.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Granted, but you lose so much range when you launch a missile intended to be air launched from the ground. MIM72s have a 5km range, while air launched sidewinders have a 35km range!
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I assume that its less than 50% and drops off quickly if the launch slant is sub-optimal.
 
MadRat said:
I assume that its less than 50% and drops off quickly if the launch slant is sub-optimal.
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I know it's less commonality, but the Sidewinder guidance package was originally a heat seeker for Zuni rockets. So it should be possible to use a different rocket motor with AIM9X seeker and warhead for the ground launched version, assuming that Big Army wants more range than 5-10km.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I know it's less commonality, but the Sidewinder guidance package was originally a heat seeker for Zuni rockets. So it should be possible to use a different rocket motor with AIM9X seeker and warhead for the ground launched version, assuming that Big Army wants more range than 5-10km.
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Well but you know now you don't have this multi Service Missile...... Mate they should Just make a Block 3 that goes some 60km or more for Air to Air and even if ground launched the ones aren't that bad then.
 
kqcke for you said:
Well but you know now you don't have this multi Service Missile...... Mate they should Just make a Block 3 that goes some 60km or more for Air to Air and even if ground launched the ones aren't that bad then.
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It's still 2/3rds common by rough parts count (seeker and warhead), and probably isn't going to be significantly more expensive than the Air to Air version since the Army is buying thousands of the things.

Also, this version may be better for employment from helicopters.
 
No No that would be a to easy and smart solution to this Problem.
I mean if they give AIM-9X a new seeker then they also can build 2 Rocket Motors. 1 for Air to Air and the second ground to Air. Or just by Iris-T SLS
 
kqcke for you said:
No No that would be a to easy and smart solution to this Problem.
I mean if they give AIM-9X a new seeker then they also can build 2 Rocket Motors. 1 for Air to Air and the second ground to Air. Or just by Iris-T SLS
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They have quite a few interceptor options to chose from. AIM-120, JATM, AMRAAM-ER etc but they went with the AIM-9X as their initial interceptor. AIM-9X makes sense because it allows for the desired magazine loadout. As it is, it's an interim option with the phase two missile needing to be able to defeat large caliber rockets, and supersonic cruise missiles while also allowing for a similarly sized magazine (72 interceptors per battery). Tamir-2 has been mentioned and it appears Lockheed has also submitted a proposal. One would think that an upgraded Tamir would be a good solution and one that will allow them to retain the current magazine size. The purpose of IFPC Inc 2 is to provide fixed/semi-fixed sites SHORAD protection against subsonic, supersonic cruise missiles, FW/RW aircraft and rockets...as it sits below PATRIOT, and runs on the same network, trying to convert it into a medium ranged system is not really a priority for the Army.

The Army released a request for information last year to get a better idea of available options. Lozano said RTX and Lockheed Martin submitted proposals, and companies in Israel also have solutions such as the Tamir 2 interceptor, made by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems.

The service is also looking for missiles that can achieve certain altitudes and ranges with a rocket motor that can decrease flight time to its target. The weapon must also deflect electronic warfare countermeasures and feature enhanced seeker performance. The goal is to develop and field the interceptor in the 2025 to 2030 time frame, Lozano added.
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www.defensenews.com

Army pursuit of new air and missile defense interceptors heating up

The Army wants to start developing a second interceptor for its Indirect Fires Protection Capability and a next-gen missile to replace PAC-3 MSE.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
 
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11 September 1996
www.flightglobal.com

Raytheon unveils radical bid for Sidewinder replacement

RAYTHEON HAS revealed a radical missile design offered to meet the Pentagon's AIM-9X Sidewinder-replacement requirement, while admitting that it is also working on larger-diameter versions of its missile. Raytheon has married its rotate-to-view (RTV) imaging infra-red seeker to the Box Office...
www.flightglobal.com www.flightglobal.com
 
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Heatloss said:
11 September 1996
www.flightglobal.com

Raytheon unveils radical bid for Sidewinder replacement

RAYTHEON HAS revealed a radical missile design offered to meet the Pentagon's AIM-9X Sidewinder-replacement requirement, while admitting that it is also working on larger-diameter versions of its missile. Raytheon has married its rotate-to-view (RTV) imaging infra-red seeker to the Box Office...
www.flightglobal.com www.flightglobal.com
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Oooh, 512x512 array size! nice!
 

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