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Author Topic: F-22s may have been lost as a result of Hurricane Michael  (Read 4709 times)

Offline sferrin

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Re: F-22s may have been lost as a result of Hurricane Michael
« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2018, 11:03:51 am »
Idiotic!!!
Billions lost because they couldn't be loaded on a flatbed and trucked out of state??

Someone's ass should be fired. They knew perfectly well how serious the storm was.

Should have been trucked out of the area

An F-22 is 13 meters wide and 5 meters high. Moving something that big is a major operation that needs far more than 2 days of preparation: many roads don't have more than 5 meters clearance across and ~4.5 m in height.
Disassembling the aircraft to a road-transportable state could also easily take more than 2 days.

Just to put the size in perspective:

"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline DrRansom

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Re: F-22s may have been lost as a result of Hurricane Michael
« Reply #76 on: October 20, 2018, 01:49:59 pm »
The only thing which could have saved the F-22s from damage is pro-active infrastructure investments. Any airbase will have a fraction of planes which cannot evacuate and cannot be 'trucked' out beforehand. Knowing that and knowing how expensive fighter planes are … just build a few hardened hangers for each airbase.

Also: the USAF is going to need anti-drone protection soon anyway, might as well get started early.

Offline kcran567

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Re: F-22s may have been lost as a result of Hurricane Michael
« Reply #77 on: October 20, 2018, 04:17:30 pm »
Idiotic!!!
Billions lost because they couldn't be loaded on a flatbed and trucked out of state??

Someone's ass should be fired. They knew perfectly well how serious the storm was.

Should have been trucked out of the area

An F-22 is 13 meters wide and 5 meters high. Moving something that big is a major operation that needs far more than 2 days of preparation: many roads don't have more than 5 meters clearance across and ~4.5 m in height.
Disassembling the aircraft to a road-transportable state could also easily take more than 2 days.
I've seen an entire house moved on interstate highways on more than a few occasions with the very large flatbeds and a few white trucks with yellow hazard lights. That storm was one of the biggest and there was ample warning. At the very least there should be consequences and a plan to avoid similar $50B or more loss. I guess it comes down to the will to do a little extra work sometimes, but just another drop in the money pit at this point. When they have a blank check to spend other peoples money. Just a brief rant.

The picture of the F-22 on the flatbed is interesting. And is not too much longer or wider than the standard trailer seen carried on an 18 wheel semi.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 04:25:07 pm by kcran567 »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: F-22s may have been lost as a result of Hurricane Michael
« Reply #78 on: October 20, 2018, 05:47:03 pm »
Idiotic!!!
Billions lost because they couldn't be loaded on a flatbed and trucked out of state??

Someone's ass should be fired. They knew perfectly well how serious the storm was.

Should have been trucked out of the area

An F-22 is 13 meters wide and 5 meters high. Moving something that big is a major operation that needs far more than 2 days of preparation: many roads don't have more than 5 meters clearance across and ~4.5 m in height.
Disassembling the aircraft to a road-transportable state could also easily take more than 2 days.

Just to put the size in perspective:

The wing span of the F-22 is 44'-6", which is about what an F-15 wing span is, 42'-10". So watching this video I would say they missed out on an opportunity

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Offline Hobbes

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Re: F-22s may have been lost as a result of Hurricane Michael
« Reply #79 on: October 20, 2018, 11:20:43 pm »
Idiotic!!!
Billions lost because they couldn't be loaded on a flatbed and trucked out of state??

Someone's ass should be fired. They knew perfectly well how serious the storm was.

Should have been trucked out of the area

An F-22 is 13 meters wide and 5 meters high. Moving something that big is a major operation that needs far more than 2 days of preparation: many roads don't have more than 5 meters clearance across and ~4.5 m in height.
Disassembling the aircraft to a road-transportable state could also easily take more than 2 days.
I've seen an entire house moved on interstate highways on more than a few occasions with the very large flatbeds and a few white trucks with yellow hazard lights.

yes, with 3 months of planning to find a clear route and prepare the places where a clear route can't be found (by temporarily removing traffic lights, signs and other obstructions).

Offline kitnut617

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Re: F-22s may have been lost as a result of Hurricane Michael
« Reply #80 on: October 21, 2018, 06:33:18 am »
Idiotic!!!
Billions lost because they couldn't be loaded on a flatbed and trucked out of state??

Someone's ass should be fired. They knew perfectly well how serious the storm was.

Should have been trucked out of the area

An F-22 is 13 meters wide and 5 meters high. Moving something that big is a major operation that needs far more than 2 days of preparation: many roads don't have more than 5 meters clearance across and ~4.5 m in height.
Disassembling the aircraft to a road-transportable state could also easily take more than 2 days.
I've seen an entire house moved on interstate highways on more than a few occasions with the very large flatbeds and a few white trucks with yellow hazard lights.

yes, with 3 months of planning to find a clear route and prepare the places where a clear route can't be found (by temporarily removing traffic lights, signs and other obstructions).

Actually, there are routes already built that way so large loads can be moved around. Things like traffic light poles that can be turned and as in the video, the electrical crew who lead or follow, have bucket-lifts and poles to lift any wires hanging down in the way.  Out where I live moving house size loads is the norm rather than the other way around, a lot of what I did in my job was moved this way (very large skid modules)
If I'm not building models, I'm riding my dirtbike

Offline sferrin

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Re: F-22s may have been lost as a result of Hurricane Michael
« Reply #81 on: October 21, 2018, 07:16:31 am »
Idiotic!!!
Billions lost because they couldn't be loaded on a flatbed and trucked out of state??

Someone's ass should be fired. They knew perfectly well how serious the storm was.

Should have been trucked out of the area

An F-22 is 13 meters wide and 5 meters high. Moving something that big is a major operation that needs far more than 2 days of preparation: many roads don't have more than 5 meters clearance across and ~4.5 m in height.
Disassembling the aircraft to a road-transportable state could also easily take more than 2 days.
I've seen an entire house moved on interstate highways on more than a few occasions with the very large flatbeds and a few white trucks with yellow hazard lights.

yes, with 3 months of planning to find a clear route and prepare the places where a clear route can't be found (by temporarily removing traffic lights, signs and other obstructions).

Actually, there are routes already built that way so large loads can be moved around. Things like traffic light poles that can be turned and as in the video, the electrical crew who lead or follow, have bucket-lifts and poles to lift any wires hanging down in the way.  Out where I live moving house size loads is the norm rather than the other way around, a lot of what I did in my job was moved this way (very large skid modules)

Why would you assume it's that way everywhere?  When I lived in East Texas it wasn't unusual to see a house moving down the road on a truck.  In Utah I've never seen one.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline lastdingo

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Re: F-22s may have been lost as a result of Hurricane Michael
« Reply #82 on: October 21, 2018, 08:09:14 am »
Idiotic!!!
Billions lost because they couldn't be loaded on a flatbed and trucked out of state??

Someone's ass should be fired. They knew perfectly well how serious the storm was.

Should have been trucked out of the area

An F-22 is 13 meters wide and 5 meters high. Moving something that big is a major operation that needs far more than 2 days of preparation: many roads don't have more than 5 meters clearance across and ~4.5 m in height.
Disassembling the aircraft to a road-transportable state could also easily take more than 2 days.
I've seen an entire house moved on interstate highways on more than a few occasions with the very large flatbeds and a few white trucks with yellow hazard lights.

yes, with 3 months of planning to find a clear route and prepare the places where a clear route can't be found (by temporarily removing traffic lights, signs and other obstructions).

An armed service is supposed to do contingency planning ahead. That's about the only excuse for the bloated staffs.

The USAF played hollow force syndrome here: It did not optimise resources allocation for the whole force, but emphasised the preferred parts, such as having many comfortable officers, having many prestige aircraft.

The racket typically goes like this:
(1) Budget does not match irresponsible dreams
(2) forces TO&E is not reduced appropriately, and certainly not the staffs
(3) money gets allocated to preferred prestige things (ship hulls, combat aircraft etc.)
(4) spare parts buys are neglected, munitions buys are neglected, infrastructure reinvestments get neglected
(5) readiness and combat value plunge
(6) top brass cries foul, blames politicians for "hollow force"
(7) irresponsible politicians choose to play 'strong on defense', allocate a bigger budget
(8) top brass dreams grow
(9) rinse, repeat

In this case approx. 5...20 million USD infrastructure investment would have protected the F-22s.
Now they're going to salvage every single airframe. New production is not feasible politically, but expensive rebuilds are very much possible.
In 3 years all that's going to be left from this affair is several hundreds of millions USD additional federal (public) debt and not one officer career will be harmed.

Offline Mark S.

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Re: F-22s may have been lost as a result of Hurricane Michael
« Reply #83 on: October 21, 2018, 08:26:42 am »
Well, in the video I saw the structures survived the hurricane but the exterior roof panels didn't.  Most roof and wall panels are attached with self-tapping sheet metal screws.  The panels themselves are steel.  You get corrosion and the holes enlarge due to rust.  When wind for whatever reason enters the structure and generates lift you get  failures.  Proper building maintenance is important.  In areas that are hurricane prone designing a structure to use bolted in lieu of screwed connections of roof and wall panels prevents a lot of this.  You still will have problems with flashings, close-out panels and soffits.  These may have been the first to fail in these hangars. Having designed structures all over the country I can tell you because of the lack of snow loads older structures built in the south do not have the added strength to ride out the damaging effects of hurricanes.  The weight of the snow especially downwind of the Great Lakes drives building design.  Blizzard force winds and heavy snow loads approach hurricane effects.  Modern building codes have begun to change this.  All structures are designed with enough foundation/anchorage to sustained anticipated wind loads per building codes.  It worked in this case as the structure is still standing. Moving forward the major problem is that the older structures don't have the capacity to carry the weight of the stronger and more robustly attached roof and wall panels.  This necessitates either strengthening the structure which may be cost prohibitive and or impractical or building new. 

Offline kitnut617

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Re: F-22s may have been lost as a result of Hurricane Michael
« Reply #84 on: October 21, 2018, 09:13:22 am »
Idiotic!!!
Billions lost because they couldn't be loaded on a flatbed and trucked out of state??

Someone's ass should be fired. They knew perfectly well how serious the storm was.

Should have been trucked out of the area

An F-22 is 13 meters wide and 5 meters high. Moving something that big is a major operation that needs far more than 2 days of preparation: many roads don't have more than 5 meters clearance across and ~4.5 m in height.
Disassembling the aircraft to a road-transportable state could also easily take more than 2 days.
I've seen an entire house moved on interstate highways on more than a few occasions with the very large flatbeds and a few white trucks with yellow hazard lights.

yes, with 3 months of planning to find a clear route and prepare the places where a clear route can't be found (by temporarily removing traffic lights, signs and other obstructions).

Actually, there are routes already built that way so large loads can be moved around. Things like traffic light poles that can be turned and as in the video, the electrical crew who lead or follow, have bucket-lifts and poles to lift any wires hanging down in the way.  Out where I live moving house size loads is the norm rather than the other way around, a lot of what I did in my job was moved this way (very large skid modules)

Why would you assume it's that way everywhere?  When I lived in East Texas it wasn't unusual to see a house moving down the road on a truck.  In Utah I've never seen one.

I was just pointing out to Harro that over here it's more the norm, besides, they build houses from scratch in Utah -- right   ;)
If I'm not building models, I'm riding my dirtbike

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: F-22s may have been lost as a result of Hurricane Michael
« Reply #85 on: October 22, 2018, 09:19:26 am »
When wind for whatever reason enters the structure and generates lift you get  failures.  Proper building maintenance is important.

Roof panels aren't just pushed by the wind blowing them away with the wind acting on the structure, in fact it's because the shape of the structure creates a depression when wind ram on one side that lift is generated on the other (typical on triangular roof for example). Roof panels are then in effect sucked away from the structure and then fly like a door barn pushed and swirling by the direct action of the wind on their surface. With wind gust and vortex generated by the other structures around and shapes of the building itself, the structure has to endure alternative loading what aggravates the effect.

This is why I put my line against the dome like compound, the poor achievement from the contractors (design failure) and the generalized nails and plank like construction methods for private owner : Lift is the real enemy.     
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 07:17:19 am by TomcatViP »

Offline Mark S.

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Re: F-22s may have been lost as a result of Hurricane Michael
« Reply #86 on: October 22, 2018, 03:24:34 pm »
Lift may be the real enemy but it is accounted for in the design.  The issue here is more of building maintenance.  Whether the panels were blown off from lift from the outside or wind loads underneath once the building opens up you generally get more failures.  That seems to be an arch structure.  Those types of hangars were built in the 40's and 50's.  A lot of fatigue cycles, wet/dry conditions on those screws holding the panels in place over 60 to 70 years.  You would need to look at the segments of the fasteners remaining in the structural steel to determine if it was a pure lift failure or a combination of that with corrosion and fatigue.  I'm saying the later.  Grab yourself a copy of the Southern Building Code at the nearest library.  You will see that height of structure above terrain and other buildings is taken into account in developing the loads including lift generated by the wind.  Remember building codes are revised from time to time and the code that the hangar was built under is no where near as comprehensive as today's.  The body of knowledge is growing.     

Offline Jeb

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Re: F-22s may have been lost as a result of Hurricane Michael
« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2018, 09:48:14 am »
Idiotic!!!
Billions lost because they couldn't be loaded on a flatbed and trucked out of state??

Someone's ass should be fired. They knew perfectly well how serious the storm was.

Should have been trucked out of the area

An F-22 is 13 meters wide and 5 meters high. Moving something that big is a major operation that needs far more than 2 days of preparation: many roads don't have more than 5 meters clearance across and ~4.5 m in height.
Disassembling the aircraft to a road-transportable state could also easily take more than 2 days.
I've seen an entire house moved on interstate highways on more than a few occasions with the very large flatbeds and a few white trucks with yellow hazard lights.

yes, with 3 months of planning to find a clear route and prepare the places where a clear route can't be found (by temporarily removing traffic lights, signs and other obstructions).

Not to mention that there was a general evacuation of civilians from the area so it's not like you could just throw a line of oversize flatbeds down the ol' highway without any interruption.

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: F-22s may have been lost as a result of Hurricane Michael
« Reply #88 on: October 29, 2018, 10:05:54 am »
Quote
“It turned out none of that [data] was very accurate,” said Gen. Mike Holmes, chief of Air Combat Command.

“The hangars that had a design life to take the highest winds turned out to receive some of the most damage,” Holmes said. “And some little flat ones that were rated to collapse at 75 kt. [wind speed] made it through he hurricane with no problems.”

Holmes said the base was exposed to wind gusts of nearly 150 kt., although Tyndall’s official measuring station registered peak wind gusts of about 112 kt. The eye of the hurricane passed directly over the base, exposing the area to the most severe winds and from opposite directions, Holmes said.

Hours after the storm passed over the base, Tyndall officials released an alarming assessment of the part of the base that housed all of the remaining F-22s. “The flight line is devastated. Every building has severe damage. Many buildings are a complete loss,” base officials said.

Despite the severity of the damage caused by the storm, top Air Force officials insist that none of the wreckage from the hangars that fell on the F-22s caused a total loss.
[...]
“We’ll certainly gather lessons from that,” Holmes said. “And then you have to figure out ways to pay for the lessons that you gather.”

source:
http://aviationweek.com/defense/hurricane-destruction-raised-concerns-about-f-22-hangar-data
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 10:07:26 am by TomcatViP »

Offline seruriermarshal

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Re: F-22s may have been lost as a result of Hurricane Michael
« Reply #89 on: October 31, 2018, 05:21:28 pm »
NEW from Tyndall cmdr: "Only a couple" F-22s remain at the base. All flyable. They will fly to Langley w/in days. Would be sooner but a storm is coming today. I only saw 3 tails here today. 3 temporary hangars remain on flight line. A ton of progress since the storm.