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Author Topic: advice for my fictional state  (Read 1437 times)

Offline Kadija_Man

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Re: advice for my fictional state
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2018, 08:47:40 pm »
How about teaming with either India or Australia to produce a domestic fighter?

With India, you have the HF-24 Marut.  With the correct engines, it was intended to be Mach 2 capable.

With Australia, you can access indirectly either US or UK or French technology.

I suppose it all depends on how much money you want to spend.   Light weight aircraft are cheaper but less capable.  Heavy weight aircraft are more expensive but also more capable.   The choice is yours.

You can either go with a domestic produced aircraft;
You can go with a joint produced aircraft;
You can go with a foreign designed/produced aircraft.

In the lightweight class you have a choice of the Gnat, F-5, MiG-21, N-102 Fang
In the medium weight class you have a choice of the Mirage III, the F-100, the CF-100, BAC Lightning, HF-24 Marut, F-104
In the heavy class you have a choice of the F-101, F-4, Javelin, CF-105, F-105, Su7/Su9/Su11/Su15


Offline starviking

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Re: advice for my fictional state
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2018, 11:37:33 pm »
Depending on the perceived threat warning time, something like the SR.53 or 177 might be suitable. Type A could have the turbojet/rocket combo, B the turbojet and more fuel.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: advice for my fictional state
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2018, 12:01:10 am »
Did someone say Crescent wing?
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Offline Archibald

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Re: advice for my fictional state
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2018, 12:12:29 am »
When I red Tony Butler books 15 years ago, I really liked the type 545. A crying shame it never flew. Thanks for the drawings.

And D'OH for tailed deltas, forgot those ones.
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Offline zen

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Re: advice for my fictional state
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2018, 12:33:24 am »
Did someone say Crescent wing?

Yeap it bang on the button for the general trend of the times. A host of aircraft of the period have compound sweep back and it does deliver more benign characteristics.

Always liked the 545.
So TA's effort would be like that only with twin engines and a bigger radome.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: advice for my fictional state
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2018, 12:43:58 am »
So how radical is the radical canard?

« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 12:45:37 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Offline zen

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Re: advice for my fictional state
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2018, 01:39:38 am »
I was thinking either like the vicker Supermarine offering or something like unmanned drones based on the Avro 730, which I can't remember the designation of.

Offline _Del_

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Re: advice for my fictional state
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2018, 10:14:54 am »
The trend by the mid fifties was for the 45 swept wing.


I keep seeing something like the Super Mystere, F-100 (perhaps with a redesigned radome like the Sabre Dog), F-8, Super Tiger, Su-7, Su-9, MiG-21 F-101, F-104, F-105, Lightning All basic 50's shapes.

The 50's tailless Deltas were underwhelming (Mirage I, F-102). You didn't get refinements (more power, area-rule) until very late in the 50's. It seems like unlikely that an independent industry would follow that path until after the later success of the Mirage III and F-106.


Maybe even consider something like the Yak-27 if locally developed because it'd have high adaptability for other roles.


For an independent development, I'd also think it'd be fine and totally appropriate if you ended up with something(s) that failed to meet your speed requirement. Something like a slightly enlarged Sabre Dog with twin engines providing more thrust than the original engine screams 50's to me, but would probably fall short on performance, which would follow early 50's period thinking (when this would presumably be developed to be ready by mid 50's) that they just needed more thrust to push max speeds up.

The engines themselves are an interesting question. If you could get a J57 it seems like a recipe for success.


A lot of designs like the F-86, CF-100, MiG-19, Su-7, HAL Marut, Hunter, Yak-25, G.91 etc  were fine transonic fighter/interceptors that continued in service and remained relevant (if technically obsolete) well into the 60's which is another thing to consider.

Maybe you end up with two competing designs and both fall short (look at all the deadend projects the US, UK, France, and USSR took through prototype stages in the 50's!), but still represents a competent and reliable interceptor ala the supersonic Yak-27. Maybe you have limitations because of export restrictions on engines.  Lots of ways to not get a top performing fighter in the 50's even if/especially if you're designing it oneself.

On the flipside, the Draken is sort of th exception to prove the rule, proving a very capable aircrwft outclassing many contemporaries.


ETA: just read down the thread.  The type 545 is an excellent 50's design! 
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 10:21:50 am by _Del_ »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: advice for my fictional state
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2018, 01:39:30 pm »
Regarding engines, did WW2 happen in this timeline? If so, expat German designers are your best bet for indigenous engine development with something like an Atar.
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Offline zen

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Re: advice for my fictional state
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2018, 03:16:49 pm »
I'm going on the basis of most of history happening as was.
Country D's greatest impact is in its region.
The 'liberation' of Madagascar from the Viche regime and returning the Merina Kingdom. Though France engineers a South Madagascar state that quickly falls to a Communist revolution.  Later followed by the Kilwa Sultanate (Maputo in southern Mozambique).
Furthermore the independence of Natal and with it Zululand.
Also the support of Ethiopia against European powers.

Good points on state of aircraft designs at the time. I'm working on the pressure to develop this aircraft is the mid 50's as that's when Canberras are being released and the Valient is operational.
Uk backing of Country T (the southern part of the island continent) as colony and then ex-colony is as much of a threat as Communists or the French. Even they ended up as allies during WWII.

I'm working on the idea they have licence built centrifugal jets.
So while some Germans might be involved, but this country has the educated population to resource personel for the task.
Certainly would be interesting if say the 35' diameter proved a successful engine. If say this was exported and licensed to India for example especially if this is used in the Marut.

Offline zen

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Re: advice for my fictional state
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2018, 10:36:59 am »
What would be the effect of say buying Swedish aircraft?
Could that exert influence and drive forward certain Swedish projects?
A36 for instance or the later light attack machine....

What is the effect of a Indian Marut being the high performance machine they intended it to be?

What would be the effect of say buying Oerlikon SAM systems?
Or instead the Yugoslavian Vulkan R25 system?

Offline Michel Van

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Re: advice for my fictional state
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2018, 02:24:39 pm »
Indian HF-24 Marut was good multi role Combat aircraft build by team around german Kurt Tank
but Marut had one major problem it's weak engine
It got a India build Bristol-Siddeley Orpheus with thrust of 20.11 kN, but needed a more powerful engine with 40 kN of Thrust
Rolls-Royce wanted to Improve the Orpheus but India government refused the offer...

Saab would benefit if Country D would buy Saab 35 Draken in begin of 1960s
This early version of Draken J 35A has French Cyrano Radar system of Mirage III
so why not French rockets, the Matra R.511 or later R.530 air-to-air missiles ?

But at that point Dassault and Marta would Offer Country D
A nice package deal: missiles and Mirage III aircraft and as Bonus a good financial assistance to poor politician of Country D   ;)
oh by the way Lockheed is also good in that Game...
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Offline zen

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Re: advice for my fictional state
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2018, 12:58:17 am »
So while the Orpheus was I think 32 or 33' it was chosen for the Marut I suspect due to availability and the need to get a version flying.
They did later look at the E300 from Egypt but politics got in the way.

But if say Country D has  a 35' engine of say 8,500lb dry thrust and over 13,000lb reheated . Then if India can get it....
They had quite some plans for the Marut.

A Swedish connection might start with the Tunnen progress to Lansen and beyond to Drakken.
But the French are not likely to play ball....

Offline zen

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Re: advice for my fictional state
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2018, 02:02:37 am »
Another thought Lockheed had a notably attractive development of the F104....called the Lancers I think I'll check in moment.
If Country D is persuaded (bribed) into buying license build Starfighters, it could pay them to drive that development forward.

Offline Apophenia

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Re: advice for my fictional state
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2018, 02:12:17 pm »
...Rolls-Royce wanted to Improve the Orpheus but India government refused the offer...

That would be Bristol Siddeley's Orpheus BOr.12 SR (Simple Reheat) producing 8,170 lb thrust each in afterburner ... so roughly the dry power that zen was looking at.