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Author Topic: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme  (Read 25458 times)

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2018, 10:35:51 am »
"Tempest"? Seriously? After Typhoon, Texan, Black Widow, Avenger and a few others, deciders prove without a doubt their lack of imagination... Or is is something else? Nah... Surely they wouldn't try to play on the sensitive nostalgic patriotic chord to render the public and the politicians sympathetic to highly expensive military acquisitions, would they?  ::) ;D

Offline GARGEAN

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2018, 10:39:27 am »

I tend to think of sixth generation fighter designs as being tailess.
Eh... By far not necessary. There are still definitions to be made (and remade, as they are mostly speculations: see old "supermaneuverability" and "supercruise" graphs that magically dissapeared when F-35 came), but being tailess is hardly one that will be included. There probably will be things like "high(Mach 3) speed", "optional pilot or UAV", "energy weapons", "extended survivability due to next gen ECM and DIRCM" and so on. One could only imagine now.

Offline red admiral

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2018, 10:52:59 am »
I don't mean to be a downer but......no bucks, no Buck Rodgers. I'm not sure where the cash for this is supposed to come from.
2 Billion won't come close to cutting it.

£2bn isn't meant to though. The bulk of development and production spend will be around 2025-2035, after the Dreadnought peak has passed. But this is still quite a bit of cash in comparison to other projects around the world e.g. UK's contribution to Typhoon development was around £8-10bn in today's money I believe.

Offline red admiral

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2018, 10:55:23 am »
I think that as a design it is back to the CAD computers, a total redesign is needed before the RAF will accept this fighter.

Why do you think that? Its obviously an early design iteration and as stated, just a look at what the future could look like.

Offline red admiral

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2018, 11:06:53 am »
http://aviationweek.com/farnborough-airshow-2018/uk-future-fighter-hinges-cooperation

A bit of analysis and further details in this Aviation Week article

UK-Japan-Sweden programme 40:40:20?

Offline Harrier

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2018, 11:10:25 am »
I don't mean to be a downer but......no bucks, no Buck Rodgers. I'm not sure where the cash for this is supposed to come from.
2 Billion won't come close to cutting it.

£2bn isn't meant to though. The bulk of development and production spend will be around 2025-2035, after the Dreadnought peak has passed. But this is still quite a bit of cash in comparison to other projects around the world e.g. UK's contribution to Typhoon development was around £8-10bn in today's money I believe.

The original UK cost for EFA was to be £3bn in today's money. Even a national programme was to cost only a little more. Much of the increase was due to politics. Avoiding such things can save a lot, and speed things up.
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Offline Harrier

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2018, 11:12:21 am »
http://aviationweek.com/farnborough-airshow-2018/uk-future-fighter-hinges-cooperation

A bit of analysis and further details in this Aviation Week article

UK-Japan-Sweden programme 40:40:20?

UK carriers are here to stay. Japan has STOVL capable carriers, sorry helicopter, er, destroyers (ahem). Sweden likes to go off road. So maybe...!!! ;)
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Offline Harrier

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Offline FighterJock

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2018, 11:28:13 am »
I think that as a design it is back to the CAD computers, a total redesign is needed before the RAF will accept this fighter.

Why do you think that? Its obviously an early design iteration and as stated, just a look at what the future could look like.

As a design right now it would not survive for very long in the current close in dogfighting against the likes of the Su-57 with the advanced thrust vectored R-74M.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2018, 11:29:12 am »
Analysis from RUSI's Justin Bronk to add to the pile:
https://rusi.org/publication/rusi-defence-systems/enter-tempest

Offline SteveO

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2018, 11:33:12 am »
Yay! the UK still has the capability to build a mock-up  ;D

BBC article mentions that the hardware and systems for Tempest will start life as Typhoon upgrades. Mature hardware and systems into a new airframe always sounds like one of those good ideas. Hopefully they will give it a nose job or maybe it just needs to bulk up to look more in proportion!

It reminded me of this article someone posted on SP a while back - Recent Combat Aircraft Life Cycle Costing Developments with DERA (page 5 fig 7 and the Low Support Vehicle.

Offline red admiral

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2018, 11:45:43 am »
As a design right now it would not survive for very long in the current close in dogfighting against the likes of the Su-57 with the advanced thrust vectored R-74M.

Shoot it with the laser?

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2018, 12:01:34 pm »
There has been quite a lot of work already towards the ideas illustrated, whether it's the flexible payload bay, new engine or the energy requirements for DEW.

I think it's fair to say that the team will have an excellent idea of what airframe design will be required to meet the RAF requirement and this is going to be an A2A specialist.

The use of vertical fins is actually the bit I find hardest to swallow, but as has been said before, the airframe is designed so as not to increase development time/risk and let the systems and weapons do the heavy lifting.


Offline Flyaway

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2018, 12:50:34 pm »
Only issue is going to be funding this probably means buying a lot less F-35s and in turn upsetting the Americans. Maybe that’s a price we’ll just have to pay.

Offline Moose

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2018, 12:53:11 pm »
The "_ Gen" thing is, at this point, hard to get too worked up about given all the static about which planes are in which generation. I will say that lasers and advanced engines are good ambitions to have and I'd put those as more "generation defining" features than tail/no-tail.

Only issue is going to be funding this probably means buying a lot less F-35s and in turn upsetting the Americans. Maybe that’s a price we’ll just have to pay.
I wouldn't say that, this might effect out-year purchases of F-35 but nothing immediate.