Register here

Author Topic: A very puzzling pair of would-be pre-war French bombers  (Read 2725 times)

Offline Sherman Tank

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 72
  • I don't want to change my personal text
Re: A very puzzling pair of would-be pre-war French bombers
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2018, 10:35:44 am »
I don't think it's a transport at all. I can't see any sign of a hinged door in the photograph.

Offline sienar

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 396
Re: A very puzzling pair of would-be pre-war French bombers
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2018, 02:30:58 pm »
Hello!

Another French "monster" - Loire 30, with truly giant nose turret.

Source: Aviation Magazine.

Very similar turret, it it was a turret in this case...

Offline Kdmoo

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 52
Re: A very puzzling pair of would-be pre-war French bombers
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2018, 06:35:11 pm »
I still like my original post in the Flypast thread that this could possibly be in the SNCAO CA-600 family. B)

Those sure look like French Navy markings on the tail.

Best,
Kevin




Offline TomcatViP

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 242
  • Hellcat
Re: A very puzzling pair of would-be pre-war French bombers
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2018, 02:26:00 am »
Turret fighter. I think there is some report in an old Fana de l'aviation magazine.

Offline retrofit1

  • CLEARANCE: Restricted
  • Posts: 7
  • I really should change my personal text
Re: A very puzzling pair of would-be pre-war French bombers
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2018, 03:17:36 am »
Turret fighter. I think there is some report in an old Fana de l'aviation magazine.
Should be:
"Antoine de Boysson et la SAMM" by Jean Cuny
Fana de l'aviation n°209 to 211 (April to June 1987)
Hystory of SAMM (Société d'Application des Machines Motrices) machine gun - gun turrets/support (then servo-control) since 1930.
But no clue concerning this particular aircraft.
Just a drawing of the "AB-72" 4 x machine guns turret which seems smaller than the one on the photo.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 03:22:31 am by retrofit1 »

Offline starviking

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 895
Re: A very puzzling pair of would-be pre-war French bombers
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2018, 04:04:03 am »
Turret fighter. I think there is some report in an old Fana de l'aviation magazine.

That’s what I thought too, but on looking more closely, the “turret” seems to have a square cross-section, with beveled corners - matching the structure supporting it from beneath. I can’t see any indication of rotation guide rails, and if the guns can elevate or depress they do not do so using guide rails either. Even if the turret does have some incredibly flush rotation line, the square cross-section is going to lead to unnecessary, possibly dangerous turbulence.

I agree with Kdmoo that it looks related to the SNCAO CA-600, but the gun-enclosure seems more suited to  a bomber-destroyer of some sort.

   
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 04:02:30 pm by starviking »

Online Silencer1

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 422
  • That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
Re: A very puzzling pair of would-be pre-war French bombers
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2018, 04:34:01 am »
Hello!

It's so simple: that's frist French-built gunship helicopter!
Sad, that April, 1st is only once a year  8-)

P.S. This is joke. The overall design reminds me first US helicopters, like Platt-LePage and McDonell, with lateral placed rotors.


« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 05:11:38 am by Silencer1 »

Offline galgot

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 158
Re: A very puzzling pair of would-be pre-war French bombers
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2018, 05:20:43 am »
Seems to me the 3 barrels from the machine-guns (if that’s what they are) are off centered from the turret center. That is if they are pointing 90° to left, which seems to be the case looking at the shadows. from above, something like this :

They look small caliber too.

Maybe a flying Maginot line project :D

Offline Schneiderman

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1008
Re: A very puzzling pair of would-be pre-war French bombers
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2018, 07:22:08 am »
I agree with starviking that the 'turret' does not appear to be cylindrical

Offline martinbayer

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 345
Would be marching to the beat of his own drum, if he didn't detest marching to any drumbeat at all so much.

Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 12967

Offline martinbayer

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 345
Would be marching to the beat of his own drum, if he didn't detest marching to any drumbeat at all so much.

Offline starviking

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 895
Orbiting gunship?
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2018, 04:01:59 pm »
Hold on a second: an aircraft with armored glass cockpit, and guns firing sideways? Could this be an attempted application of the orbiting gunship principle?

Offline Hood

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 886
Re: A very puzzling pair of would-be pre-war French bombers
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2018, 01:26:29 am »
Some more thoughts from me on the wingroot.

The closest possible match for the overall fuselage and tailplane shape was the Farman F.223.3 but I'm not sure the wingroot matches. From a grainy image I found of the Farman production line, the centre section consists of two I-beam spars integral with the centre fuselage section, which are missing here (with no evidence of them being cut off etc.).
The aircraft seems to have a rather dated lattice structure with four attachment points for the outer wing sections.

It is not the Bloch M.B.200, the wing structure and wing root doesn't match either.

I don't think the SNCAO CA-600 is a realistic match either. It was a brand new aircraft in 1940 and of different construction and overall shape and the two prototypes were different and only one of them completed and certainly no time to make such drastic changes before the Fall of France.

I am convinced that what we are looking at is an early 1930s design, probably no later than 1934/35. It seems odd if it was a one-off prototype type that two were built and both modified to the same standard.  This suggests perhaps conversions from an existing type.

The original Key Publishing thread mentioned a possibility of Belgium being the location, this seems unlikely to me if the aircraft is indeed French (why would the Germans drag two old hulks to Belgium?). Its unlikely to be Belgian, I don't think they operated anything this large and if they did, a conversion like this would be odd.

Offline lark

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1760
Re: A very puzzling pair of would-be pre-war French bombers
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2018, 05:37:18 am »
The first info about this aircraft appeared in the French magazine 'AeroJournal' issue 18 -2010.
Photo was take at the airfield at Chiévres - Belgium.

This air base was erected by Germany in 1940-41 as a Luftwaffe  depot for aircraft wrecks
brought down in Belgium and Northern France.

I ,personally, am not sure that the construction behind the cockpit is a aircraft gunturret.(gunnersview?)

As soon as I have located the concerning issue I'll try to tell more.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 02:00:06 pm by lark »