AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo Projects & Derivatives

GTX

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Hi folks,

Couldn't find a thread dedicated to this one so though I would start one.

To begin with, I note on wikipedia (yeah I know...) it is mentioned that "In 2001, it was reported that development of a new "stealth" variant with more power engines and improved fire-control system would commence that year." This is apparently based upon a reference in "The Armies of East Asia: China, Taiwan, Japan, and the Koreas." by Van Vranken Hickey, Dennis (2001) which I am having trouble accessing. Does anyone know more of this proposal?

Also, I have recently heard rumours via industry contacts that Taiwan is considering a further upgrade to the F-CK-1 (even though they have only recently been upgraded to C/D status) to include new engines, specifically the F404. Anyone heard anything on this?
 
This one?
 

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Wouldn't putting an F404 in the F-CK-1 require a whole new fuselage (i.e. a new plane)?
 
Some other planned derivatives:
AIDC proposed a 'Special Missions' variant intended for SEAD with an "Israeli F-16D-style" bulged spine; a night-attack variant, a reconnaissance variant , an adversary trainer and a LIFT advanced trainer.

Source: The Encyclopedia of Modern Military Aircraft, Paul Eden (Ed.), Amber Books (Aerospace Publishing), 2004
 
JFC Fuller said:
Wouldn't putting an F404 in the F-CK-1 require a whole new fuselage (i.e. a new plane)?

I would have thought so. I am actually very dubious regarding the likelihood of such a re-engining. Whilst the F404 has a slightly smaller diameter than the F-125, it is longer and heavier. Also not sure of air intake requirements with such a change.
 
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
This is from the early studies for F-CK-1, not from 2001.

Sharp notice my dear Paul.
 
The only article I found, by accident, was in Aviation Week from August 24, 1992 about re-engining the IDF with the J101/SF, which was an F404 scaled by .861.
 
Sundog said:
the J101/SF, which was an F404 scaled by .861.

Errr....wasn't the YJ101 (which I presume you are referring to) the predecessor of the F404 and therefore one might argue the F404 was a scaled up YJ101.
 
GTX said:
Sundog said:
the J101/SF, which was an F404 scaled by .861.

Errr....wasn't the YJ101 (which I presume you are referring to) the predecessor of the F404 and therefore one might argue the F404 was a scaled up YJ101.

Originally yes, but I think YJ101/J101 is the internal GE code for the name of the powerplant and F404 is the government name. As the article also stated if this version for Taiwan went into production they would have developed it to U.S. government standards and it would have been the F127-GE-100 with AB and F128-GE-100 without.
 
J101 was designated in the turbojet number sequence (J79, J97 etc). It was a USAF designation.

J101/SF was a scaled down F404 giving about 12,000lb thrust. It is possible the bypass ratio was reduced, as the PW1120 did from the F100, leading it to revert to the J101 designation.
 
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
J101 was designated in the turbojet number sequence (J79, J97 etc). It was a USAF designation.

J101/SF was a scaled down F404 giving about 12,000lb thrust. It is possible the bypass ratio was reduced, as the PW1120 did from the F100, leading it to revert to the J101 designation.

According to the article, originally it was just a scaled fan version of the F404, hence the SF, but that ended up being 500 lbs too heavy. It states they then scaled the whole engine to make this one, but it has 80% parts commonality with the F404.
 
Either way, the intel' I have been hearing recently is that they are supposedly now looking at 'standard' F404s for the aircraft which is something I am sceptical about and wanted to see if anyone else had heard anything of.
 
Is there any document or detailed page for AIDC F-CK-1?

I could not find detailed performance of the AIDC aircraft like rate of climb, turn rate chart
 
I have wondered about the engine for a while.
Whilst i am sure there is some parts commonality with civilian models..running a fleet of less than 150 airframes on a unique afterburning engine can't be easy.

Still, to re-engine with a 404 would probably entail new build airframes..so might as well start afresh instead of a 30 year design.
 
Does anyone know what specific APU the F-CK-1 has. The available online info is somewhat vague.
 
There was a full article with cutaway in Air Enthusiast/Air International when that publication was still on the magazine stands. Might find info on the APU there.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 
The cutaway drawing (see below) doesn't really say much. The best I have found is the comment on Air Vectors stating: "Garrett also supplied an interesting combined "auxiliary power unit / emergency power unit (APU/EPU)" for the Ching Kuo. The APU took a little time to come up to speed, and so if there was a complete power failure, the quick-start EPU fired up to sustain power until the APU came up to speed." However searching further on this including with Honeywell has not provided any further information. I have found the photo below which shows the APU in location but again this does not tell me anything detailed.
 

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Check Janes All the World's Aircraft 2000 or thereabouts - according to Google Book Search:



"ITEC integrated power system (IPS) consists of a Honeywell C36-120 APU for normal engine starting and ground..."
 
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Check Janes All the World's Aircraft 2000 or thereabouts - according to Google Book Search:



"ITEC integrated power system (IPS) consists of a Honeywell C36-120 APU for normal engine starting and ground..."

Legend! Thanks Paul.
 
I probably have it or one a few years either side at home - I'll check later. Just arrived at work.
 
Nope. I don't have a JAWA from late 90s or 2000. 2004 has a very small entry.

World Air Power Journal 26 has a nice article on Ching Kuo by Jon Lake, but I only have a scan of the article which seems to be missing a page.

The next page starts:

"were to supply high pressure air to the air turbine
starter and could be used for the full
ground checkout of aircraft systems requiring
the electrical generator, hydraulic pumps and
cooling from the ECS without starting the
engines or using external power."

indicating the missing page does discuss the IPS.
 
https://home.gamer.com.tw/creationDetail.php?sn=3823457
(Translation from Chinese)

Don't worry, let's go back to the opening day of Hsinchu Camp District on November 21, 2006. Presumably, many friends through the news screen know that IDF was in the event of acrobatic flight, and there was a suspected bird strike that caused the engine to stall. And after falling behind the front fuselage, there was a lot of black smoke, which scared many people.

Let's talk about this protagonist from this thick black smoke: "IPS Integrated Power System"

According to the Jane Yearbook's brief description:
ITEC Integrated Power System (IPS) is used by the Honeywell C36-120 Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) for ground system inspection and start-up engines. If the twin engine fails during flight, the emergency power unit (EPU) is automatically activated by the high-pressure mixed gas, and the APU is started by the shared gear box (Gear Box, GB). The APU operates at temperatures below 7,620 m (25,000 ft) and the EPU is below 16,460 m (54,000 ft).

Looking back at the situation of IPS development, as described by General Huaxi Xi’s " The Story of Yunhan":
Ying Yang decided to use a digitally controlled flight control system, so that the aircraft can be designed to be in an unstable state, reducing drag in the transonic region, and Improve the handling of the aircraft. The only downside is that the power and hydraulics on the aircraft are not allowed to be interrupted.

For twin-engine aircraft, power and hydraulic system interruptions may occur when both engines fail simultaneously and certain power systems or hydraulic systems fail, and according to expert advice, an emergency power system similar to the F-16 should be installed ( Emergency Power System, EPS). In addition, the Air Force requires the aircraft to be equipped with an auxiliary power system, similar to the F-16's Jet Fuel Starter (JFS), to prevent the aircraft from relying on the ground power system for engine start.

GD's recommendation is to combine these two requirements into one system to save space and weight. F-16's EPS uses hydrazine to generate power, and hydrazine is a toxic gas. Under the trend of high environmental awareness, GD has considered switching to a more advanced technology, that is, using high-pressure air to burn fuel to generate power.

At that time, the tool was developed in the AIRESEARCH test room of Garrett's relationship company. It should be combined with Garrett's specialty product APU to develop a new product and integrate the power system (Integrated Power System, IPS).

(The picture is quoted from the story of Yunhan)

The IPS consists of an auxiliary power unit APU, an emergency power unit EPU, and a shared accessory gearbox. An emergency generator and an emergency hydraulic pump are connected to the accessory gearbox.

When the dual-engine failure causes the generator and hydraulic pressure output to be abnormal, the IPS will automatically start to provide emergency power. The EPU will let the accessory gearbox reach the working speed within a few seconds, and will take over the brake after the APU starts. Therefore, no matter whether the EPU or APU is started, it can provide emergency hydraulic power and power supply for IDF to safely return to the field.

The EPU has a dedicated high-pressure air and fuel storage area. It uses high-pressure air and fuel to be forced to burn to drive the accessory gearbox. It can provide IDF at altitudes below 54,000 , for about 2 minutes. However, forced combustion of high-pressure air and fuel will produce a large amount of black smoke, which will really shock the unsuspecting.

When the IDF height is lower than 35,000 ,, the APU starts to actuate, using the fuel of the aircraft itself and the external air intake, and the mixed fuel is burned in the combustion chamber through the first-stage centrifugal compressor, and the EPU actuates the accessory gear box to generate emergency power. At less than 25,000 feet, the APU is still available to power the engine.

(36-150 type APU profile)

In addition, when the APU is operating on the ground, it can also provide a gas source starting engine, so that the IDF can achieve the self-starting operational demand without the need for ground-assisted equipment. Therefore, the IDF retains the Air Force's shortest warning time.

The APU model is 36-120, which is Honeywell's APU designed for IDF, from the 36 series family. Its family member 36-150 series has been used for AH-64, UH-60 and CH-47. In addition, Honeywell's APU has been widely used in military and civil aircraft all over the world. It is a very mature and reliable product. Even the US military's new fighters F-22 and F-35 use Honeywell's APU.

Finally, let us look at the structure of the APU. The left side of the figure shows the accessory gearbox, the middle is the air inlet, the right side is the compressor, the combustion chamber and the turbine. Besides the inability to generate the thrust required by the aircraft, its mode of operation is not with the engine. The same?
 

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Aside from Janes, the source is here: https://home.gamer.com.tw/creationDetail.php?sn=3139333

Yunhan's story ~ IDF engine development process analysis

Author: Huaxi Jun
Publisher: China Productivity Center
Publication day: Published in February of the Republic of China
Price: NT$240

Back cover instructions:
IDF is the first line of Taiwan's entry into the 21st century to defend its airspace. The Yunhan project is the project code of the Chinese people's self-developed warplane engine. It is also the first large-scale high-tech transfer and international cooperation research and development case in China. The author, General Hua Xiwei, participated in the case throughout the whole process. After 13 years, the government has also invested more than 10 billion yuan. The accumulated experience and technology can be spread to other industries. After the research and development project is closed, the author will make this book into a book. This is the most valuable first-hand information for those who are interested in international cooperation, technology transfer, and R&D project management. For those who like to study defense technology and cutting-edge weapons, this is a rare and rare book.

Directory outline:
Chapter 1: Historical Background
 Production of early reciprocating engines
 The beginning of the aviation industry
 The stagnation period of the aviation industry
 Difficult aerial technology transfer
 Developed self-powered jet trainer AT-3
 The establishment of the engine design room
 The impact of Sino-US break-up
 Seeking cooperation fails
Chapter 2: The birth of the International Turbo Engine Company
 AT-3 completed the first test flight
 Visit the Swedish Regal Company
 Gary's vice president to Taiwan briefing
 Cooperation negotiations with Garrett
 Signed with Garrett
Chapter III: The need to cooperate with fighters
 Modify the engine to match high speed requirements
 Comparison before and after modification
 Selection of TFE-1042 configuration
 Secret research and development TFE-1042-70
Chapter 4: Breakthrough in technical issues
 Complete the design blueprint of the afterburner
 High-tech post-combustor main parts
 Post-combustor test
 Important backup control system
 The only way to break through the technology
 Breaking through the bottleneck of technology
Chapter 5: Domestic Energy Preparation and Technology Transfer
 "Man-made disaster" in technology transfer
 Organizing events to eliminate artificial obstacles
 The preparation of the engine development test equipment
 Funding for risk-raising engines to develop test equipment
 The engine development test is transferred to Taiwan.
 Transfer of some key technologies
 Jieshou No. 2 Factory develops coating technology on its own
 Jieshou No.1 and No.2 Factory cooperated in research and development of chemical etching and milling technology
 Fruitful material verification certification
 Industrial upgrade, exercise yourself
Chapter 6: Re-evaluation of specifications
 Second boost engine thrust
 Uninvited guests return
 Develop new products with Garrett's equivalent investment
 Development of overall logistics support work
 Air Force's dissatisfaction with logistics support
 Engine bird test
 Performance requirements for the TFE-1042 engine
 The birth of the first TFE-1042 engine
Chapter VII: Project Management and Maintenance of Our Rights and Interests
 Management of matrix grouping
 Selection of Yunhan host
 ITEC's organizational structure
 Modify the organizational structure of ITEC
 Equal and mutually beneficial cooperation
 Improvement of cooperation level
 Is the modification of the contract equal to the protection of the rights?
 Establishment of the engine quality verification review team
 Strict cost control
 Huge amount of labor costs
Chapter 8: Third Lifting Thrust
 Third degree boosting engine thrust
 Supersonic cruise performance
 New fighter threat
 Increase the capital increase case
 Difficulties in modifying different engines
 Looking for a second source of business
 Bizarre company actively bidding
 Rigorous IPE business source selection
 Stop lifting engine thrust plan
 Unwise bidding strategy
Chapter 9: Establishing production lines and ending R&D
 Ground test verification of TFE-1042-70
 Aerial test of TFE-1042-70
 Durability test of TFE-1042-70
 Delay in engine procurement planning
 The lack of national army procurement operations
 Jieshou No. 1 Factory joined the ranks of production
 Subsequent research and development of the engine
 Three other research and development projects of Yunhan
 Successful development of integrated power system
Chapter 10: Conclusion
 The development schedule of modern fighter engines
 Performance of TFE-1042-70
 Reliable durability of the TFE-1042
 The economic benefits of Yunhan's plan
 Non-factual blame
 The market potential is endless TFE-1042
 Contribution of Yunhan Project

Experience:
Also a word! I want to know the story of the development of the warplane engine. This book is right!

Of course, this argument is still too simple. The main value of this book is to let everyone know that the TFE1042 is the best engine that can be achieved when IDF was first developed, and the human and material resources invested in this type of engine country are beyond imagination. This is not a military-made engine that can be wiped out.
 

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I'm not sure whether it is official or not, put the ROCAF has stated that the AIDC T-5 (or at least a variant of it) could replace the F-5 in Taiwanese service.
 
I'm not sure whether it is official or not, put the ROCAF has stated that the AIDC T-5 (or at least a variant of it) could replace the F-5 in Taiwanese service.

What was your source for this?
 
It was reported in Jane's last October, if I recall, but I can't find the exact article.

Edit: I couldn't find the Jane's article, but I found this instead: https://focustaiwan.tw/politics/201909240009

The new AJT will replace both the AT-3 trainer and F-5 fighter jets, he said.

Beyond their training function, however, the Brave Eagles will also be able to provide air support in combat because they can be loaded with missiles and bombs, Su said. Only F-5s and more advanced AT-3 models can be used during wartime at present.

A military source said independently that the military has hoped the plane could be used for both training and wartime missions since the early design stage and has designed that vision into the new aircraft, but stressed the aircraft will only have a support role rather than serve as a main fighter jet.

 
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The Janes feature mentions an AT-5 light fighter variant replacing the F-5E/F. How this differs from either the T-5 or the F-CK-1 is anyone's guess at the moment.
 
Hi, Manuducati.

Just to know what is the project plane of your avatar ? ;)
 
Hi, Manuducati.

Just to know what is the project plane of your avatar ? ;)
It's a personnal 'what-if', a strike fighter that Northrop Grumman could have developed around the 2005-2015 timeframe. Kind of F-35 avionics into a more kinematics envelope. I'll send you a pm with a link to the concept.
 

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