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Author Topic: Mirage IIIK  (Read 5057 times)

Offline uk 75

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2018, 02:17:36 pm »
I agree that the Mirage IIIK would have
been proposed in the strike role. It would make sense as the Mirage IVK was offered for the high end of the
TFX requirement for the RAF but a P1154/low end Canberra replacement needed the Mirage IIIK.
Dassault wanted the UK to drop F111 in favour of Mirage,
but perhaps also reduce the F4 order to fighters only.
Perhaps Dassault was ahead of his political masters so no brochure was produced. Rolls Royce was also keen
on any projects to use its engine- F111 did not, the Mirage schemes did.
Fits the 1964 swirls for me.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2018, 02:08:24 am »
The Spey-engined Mirage IV (as alternative to the F-111 to replace the cancelled TSR.2) for the UK was designated IVK.


I DO know that google books is not a panacea by any mean, this said and duly aknowledged, a lot of peope and litterature called it "the spey Mirage"

Parliamentary Debates (Hansard).: House of Commons official report
Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons
H.M. Stationery Office, 1966

https://books.google.fr/books?id=Wk8eAQAAMAAJ&q=%22the+spey+mirage%22&dq=%22the+spey+mirage%22&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjduOiYrfDYAhWMblAKHcqZCNYQ6AEISjAF
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Offline JC Carbonel

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2018, 10:08:31 am »
I am not convinced the K-suffix designates "United Kingdom" at Dassault. F1C exported to Koweit were F1-CK so "K" could mean "Koweit". But we are talking of a pre six-days war project, so I doubt any Emirate would have been a customer. Korea is rather far outside Dassault's usual markets. So I tend to stick to my "Kiwis" by pure guesswork. That said, I am ready to accept a Mirage III K for UK ... if some written material supports it.

JCC

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2018, 11:16:16 am »
I am not convinced the K-suffix designates "United Kingdom" at Dassault. F1C exported to Koweit were F1-CK so "K" could mean "Koweit". But we are talking of a pre six-days war project, so I doubt any Emirate would have been a customer. Korea is rather far outside Dassault's usual markets. So I tend to stick to my "Kiwis" by pure guesswork. That said, I am ready to accept a Mirage III K for UK ... if some written material supports it.

JCC

I think you are mistaken.

Mirage IIIK was drawn in exactly the same timeframe as the Spey-engined Mirage IVK for the UK. The Mirage IIIK has already been mentioned in previously published sources as a "Spey Mirage" project.  I am pretty sure the chances of Dassault drawing up a new configuration 'Spey Mirage' project for New Zealand in 1965 is close to zero. In the absence of written material to support your Kiwi idea, the balance of probability is the it was drawn up to a UK requirement like the ground attack Hunter replacement (filled by the Harrier eventually).
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 11:22:23 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2018, 11:21:30 am »
An article on Avon-engined Mirages by John Fricker in an old Air International states that a Spey-engined Mirage IIIK was proposed to the RAF as a Hunter replacement in 1964, "with the full backing of Rolls Royce".

Is that good enough?
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Offline JC Carbonel

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2018, 11:53:44 am »
But I am not discussing the existence of a Spey-Mirage. What I want to see is a Mirage IIIK (or Mirage IV K) (what ever the engine they put inside) associated with UK in a period publication.

JCC

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2018, 12:05:13 pm »
But I am not discussing the existence of a Spey-Mirage. What I want to see is a Mirage IIIK (or Mirage IV K) (what ever the engine they put inside) associated with UK in a period publication.

JCC

I have like JCC, my doubts on Label "Mirage IIIK with K as is for UK" as Dassault designations
can it be that designation "Mirage IIIK" is British one. Either by Military, bureaucracy or at BAC ?
Last one could be responsible, because BAC wanted to build half of order Mirage, had deal went on.
I love Strange Technology

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2018, 04:25:03 pm »
Some of the period documentation I've seen on the BAC / Dassault Spey Mirage IV calls it the IV*. There was a Buccaneer proposal with a * as well, so this may be a British designation.

The Mirage IIIK is definitely mentioned as a Spey Mirage project for Hunter replacement, but John Fricker's source for the designation isn't documented.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 04:40:30 pm by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2018, 11:57:00 pm »
and thanks to the way search engines works, it is next to impossible to browse anything significant with a * inside. Or maybe "Mirage IV star" or whatever english word stands for *
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2018, 12:31:15 am »
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=mirage+IIIK&source=lnms&tbm=bks

Some references from 1965 to a Mirage IIIK project to follow.
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2018, 01:49:43 am »
At home now, I can check the books :)

The Mirage IIIK drawing in French Secret Projects is almost exactly the same design as the Mirage IIIF2 drawing from February 1965 first seen in the Liebert/Buyck book on the Mirage F1, with a shorter fuselage. Wing shape is the same.  It seems to have a SNECMA ATAR 9K engine in the drawing presented (the text is very tiny and hard to read!) instead of a TF-306.
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2018, 03:52:52 am »
Oh boy, I can see why so much confusion.

a) in the ordinary world of aviation history, it essentially boils down to Mirage III = delta

But
Quote
Wing shape is the same

Ok, can anybody answer an essential question: does that wing shape is a delta, or a swept wing ?

b) Mirage F2 was the first NON delta,

c) Yet from 1963 to 1965 it was called Mirage III F or Mirage III F2

d) Which was completely stupid and silly, and confusing.

e) From 1966 onwards it was called Mirage F2.

f) So ok, gimme a break and a lot of anti-headache medecine

g) We have so far, in this thread, discussed three different aircrafts, all three offered to the RAF in the 1965-66 time frame

- a standard Mirage III airframe, that is a delta wing, with a SPEY

- a Mirage F2 with an Atar or a TF306

- the "Spey Mirage" also called "Mirage IV K" or "Mirage IV * " which is a well documented, and an entirely different aircraft, and should not be discussed anymore. in this thread

h) So now back to square one.

The essential issue we have to solve is to determine whether the Mirage III K is

- a standard Mirage III airframe, that is a delta wing, with a SPEY, as a Hunter replacement, from the undocumented source

or

- a Mirage F2 with an Atar (or a TF306) and a swept wing ?

for the record, the Mirage F2 program was started in 1963 as a STOL backup to the VTOL Mirages, and flew on June 12 1966.

Dear God. We are reaching Monty Python level of absurdity with all those confusing Dassault proposals and names.

Imagine the scene
"Please call your master, Guy Marcel Dassault de Loimbard, and ask him if he wants to join in our quest for a British Mirage"
"Oh well, he has already one, so he is not very interested, you see. By the way, is your Mirage an African Mirage or an European Mirage ?"
"Well, I really don't know, but I'm quite sure he can carry a load of coconuts under its wings. Albatross !"
"What albatross ?"
"That's what we call it. The Albatross." Envoyez l'Albatross !. the What ? ah ouais."
(Sound of a catapult)
(a giant, wooden model of a Mirage III with an unknown engine get out of nowhere and drops a load of coconuts on the english knights before crashing down, crushing a couple of unfortunate riders that scream in terror )
"Run awaaaaay !"
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 04:14:51 am by Archibald »
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Offline galgot

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2018, 04:37:24 am »
I think uk 75 specified that the swall... sorry the Mirage he mentioned was a swept wing (F2 like) one.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2018, 05:21:43 am »
ROTFLMAO. Thank you. We are getting closer.

When trying to sell its Mirages, Dassault used to "fire by all tubes" that is, to propose many options to please the customer. By options, I mean every Mirage airframe he had on hand at this point of time, or even refurbishing old airframes in storage.
For example, to the Israelis long range strike requirement of 1965 he proposed
- a stripped-down Mirage IV
- the Mirage F2
- and finally he got the a deal with the Mirage V

So I think it possible that, trying to sell a tactical fighter to the RAF as a Hunter successor (against the Phantom), he made two separate proposals

- first, a Mirage F2 (whatever the engine, I don't care about the engine !)

- later, a Mirage III with a Spey. It might have been a straight derivative of this bird I already mentionned, the Mirage III-T.

The bottom line: one TF-30 is worth two J79s, even with less thrust, because as a single turbofan it burns less fuel, and the airframe can be smaller, and more streamlined. Hence any Spey or TF30 Mirage, if big enough, can beat a J79 Phantom
(of course you British rammed two Speys into a Phantom airframe just to piss off Dassault, but that's another story ! :p )



It is really a matter of engine diameter.

The Atar was 1050 mm (and so was the M53 !), a Spey is 1092 mm, but a JTF-10 / TF30 compressor is 1200 mm wide. Curiously enough, the J79 was 980 mm only, but was far hotter than an Atar, that's the reason why the Kfir was such a tight fit.

So, the standard Mirage III *ass* was tailored for a 1050 mm Atar but could eventually take a 1092 mm Spey.
BUT
As you can see, the 1200 mm wide TF30 was really at the extreme end. Still they managed to do it, and the Mirage III-T was born, but it really flew like a load of bricks - compressor stalls, mach 1.4 in the good days.

Thus, when the Mirage F2 fuselage was created, from 1963, it was designed from the very beginning for the 1200 mm wide TF30. Hence one could very well slide in place a 1092 mm Spey or a 1050 mm Atar into such a large *bottom*

The fuselages were NOT the same: the Mirage III-T was really a stock Mirage III airframe straight of the production line and heavily modified, and it didn't worked at all.
 By contrast the Mirage F2 was designed, from the very beginning, for the TF30 - including much larger air intakes, air intakes having been a major issue on the III-T, they were redesigned many times because of compressor stalls.





You can see that while the Mirage III-T really looks obese, the Mirage F2 has a more balanced look. The virtue of being designed with the right engine from the drawing board on.

The Mirage F2 was not a Mirage IIIB fuselage with a different engine and swept wings. They were different airframes from the beginning. Even the canopy is different.

(and now my post sounds like Biggus Diggus speech from Life of Brian.
He has a wife, you know. She is called... Incontinentia... buttocks
(unfortunate guards explodes into laughter and are send dying as gladiators)

Oh well...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 05:56:17 am by Archibald »
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Offline Deltafan

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2018, 06:10:27 am »
At home now, I can check the books :)

The Mirage IIIK drawing in French Secret Projects is almost exactly the same design as the Mirage IIIF2 drawing from February 1965 first seen in the Liebert/Buyck book on the Mirage F1, with a shorter fuselage. Wing shape is the same.  It seems to have a SNECMA ATAR 9K engine in the drawing presented (the text is very tiny and hard to read!) instead of a TF-306.

Until then, I feared it, but now I'm sure : I write very very baldly in English :'( ;D ;)

In the book "Le Mirage F1 et les Mirage de seconde génération à ailes en flèche", there si no Mirage IIIK, but a 3 views of a Mirage IIIF2 02, very (not exactly) similar to this IIIK as it has large apex gloves too. The IIIF2 02 is a derivative of the IIIF2 01 (later F2).
The IIIF2 02 is longer (17.60 m) than the IIIK (14.16) and it has a TF 306 engine (not the Atar 9K of the IIIK).

But maybe the "K" of the IIIK comes simply from the Atar 9K ?

« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 06:15:05 am by Deltafan »