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Author Topic: Mirage IIIK  (Read 5322 times)

Offline uk 75

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Mirage IIIK
« on: January 20, 2018, 09:45:11 am »
In the excellent French Secret Projects
Volume on Fighters there is a drawing
of a plane designated the Mirage IIIK but
in fact resembling a Mirage F2 or a fixed
wing AFVG. The drawing dates
from 1965.
Listening to M. Macron speaking
English on the Radio while I was reading
the book, I began wondering if the
plane was intended to woo the UK away
from the F4 order. The US had designated
the British F4 and F111 variants with a K.
Perhaps Dassault thought that the UK might
be persuaded to order a European plane as
part of its bid to join the EEC.
I know it seems a bit far out but the 1964 to 5
timeframe fits.

Offline dan_inbox

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2018, 02:15:18 am »
There is some fanboy's fanfic on this subject at http://thempirestwilight.wikia.com/wiki/BAC/Dassault_Mirage_IIIK
Quote from: The Empire's Twilight Wiki
BAC/Dassault Mirage IIIK
The BAC/Dassault Mirage FAW.1 (known as Mirage IIIK to Dassault) was an all weather fighter operated by the RAF and Royal Navy. It was developed by BAC from Dassault's proven Mirage III family of aircraft.


Offline Archibald

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2018, 05:18:59 am »
I wouldn't want to land a Mirage III, even with the power of the mighty spey, on a British carrier, even if Ark royal and Eagle were far bigger than the Clem's.
Otherwise, a useful aircraft to replace the RAF Hunters and Jaguars.

I checked Atar and Spey respective diameters on Wikipedia: the Atar is 1050 mm, the Spey 1092 mm. Barely 2 inch, so the Spey should fit.

the result would look similar, but hopefully better, than this one



At 1200 mm the TF30 was way too big for a Mirage III rear end, plus that engine was already a pig, and the Mirage III tight airframe made things worse.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 05:20:44 am by Archibald »
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Offline galgot

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2018, 05:50:36 am »
Goodness gracious me, a French pres. speaking english :O
Btw, I remember reading about a "Mirage III L" project Dassault would have done with Boeing, was to be a way for boeing to a have a light weight fighter competitor against the  F-5. anyone know what engine was considered for that one, I highly doubt Boeing would have kept the ATAR. Wonder if the J79 was already considered…

Offline Archibald

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2018, 08:59:14 am »
It has been discussed varied times. On one hand, there is the Boeing - Dassault proposal of 1963 for a Mirage III W just as you said - for the F-5A competition. Not much detail on this one. No idea about the engine, would be fun if it had been a J79, somewhat a Kfir but a decade earlier.
Ah ben tiens donc, looks like a French website has some valuable information.
https://www.aviationsmilitaires.net/v2/base/view/Variant/14177.html

Later, in March 1971, was another Boeing - Dassault proposal for a J79 powered Mirage F1 to FXX. FXX was Boyd proposal that later become LWF, that the F-16 won.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 09:03:58 am by Archibald »
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Offline galgot

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2018, 09:07:03 am »
Oh yes, it's the III W, not L , sorry. That is why my searches gave nothing...
Right, what I wondered is , if they (Dassault) already had considered the J79 for the III W, maybe the studies would have been used for the Kfir later.

edit: Thanks for the link. It mention Pratt & Whitney would have build the ATAR 9B under license !
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 09:28:06 am by galgot »

Offline Archibald

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2018, 09:25:41 am »
You are welcome.

Google search of the varied threads. Maybe they should made into one single thread (dear and beloved moderators ?)

https://www.google.fr/search?client=firefox-b&dcr=0&ei=qsxkWo57gcPAAo7zlNAO&q=%22Mirage+IIIW%22+site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.secretprojects.co.uk&oq=%22Mirage+IIIW%22+site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.secretprojects.co.uk&gs_l=psy-ab.3...4112.4112.0.4435.1.1.0.0.0.0.79.79.1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.zvqSRG0mcJE

I can understand they went for the Atar in order to cut costs and modifications to the airframe, even more since Boeing had zero experience with supersonic jet fighters. Still there were in America much better engines than the Atar 9... J79, reheated J52 or J65, and others.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 09:27:56 am by Archibald »
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Offline uk 75

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2018, 11:16:10 am »
Sorry folks. NOT the Mirage III delta, the Mirage IIIK was
in fact like the Mirage F family in appearance. So please post Mirage III delta stuff on another thread.

Offline zen

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2018, 12:08:42 pm »
The irony.....

In pondering what best fit the carrier force, the ideal came in as a Mirage G for a single engined option. Powered by a variant of the Spey's older relative, the Medway....or something along those lines.

Mirage F2 and it's relatives are rather good as a basis for supersonic Fighter and Attack machines instead of Jaguar and Lightning. Potentially cheaper.

Not a hope in hell of course, but an interesting what if....

Online Deltafan

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2018, 05:50:40 pm »
In the excellent French Secret Projects
Volume on Fighters there is a drawing
of a plane designated the Mirage IIIK but
in fact resembling a Mirage F2 or a fixed
wing AFVG. The drawing dates
from 1965.
Listening to M. Macron speaking
English on the Radio while I was reading
the book, I began wondering if the
plane was intended to woo the UK away
from the F4 order. The US had designated
the British F4 and F111 variants with a K.
Perhaps Dassault thought that the UK might
be persuaded to order a European plane as
part of its bid to join the EEC.
I know it seems a bit far out but the 1964 to 5
timeframe fits.
In the book "Le Mirage F1 et les Mirage de seconde génération à ailes en flèche", there si no Mirage IIIK, but a 3 views of a Mirage IIIF2 02, very (not exactly) similar to this IIIK as it has large apex gloves too. The IIIF2 02 is a derivative of the IIIF2 01 (later F2).
The IIIF2 02 is longer (17.60 m) than the IIIK (14.16) and it has a TF 306 engine (not the Atar 9K of the IIIK).

But maybe the "K" of the IIIK comes simply from the Atar 9K ?



Offline Archibald

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2018, 11:33:46 pm »
The irony.....

In pondering what best fit the carrier force, the ideal came in as a Mirage G for a single engined option. Powered by a variant of the Spey's older relative, the Medway....or something along those lines.

Mirage F2 and it's relatives are rather good as a basis for supersonic Fighter and Attack machines instead of Jaguar and Lightning. Potentially cheaper.

Not a hope in hell of course, but an interesting what if....

A naval Mirage G very nearly happened in 1969-1970 and mind you, the Spey was considered, even if the TF306 and M53 were SNECMA daily jobs.
Source:
http://www.academie-air-espace.com/upload/doc/ressources/COMAERO%2010%20-%20Avions%20militaires%20I.pdf
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine - Bordeaux - Mérignac / Dassault aviation museum
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Offline uk 75

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2018, 10:12:56 am »
Unfortunately the UK and France were both
looking at VSTOL and VG as panaceas.
The Mirage F2 with Rolls Royce engines could have
been a European Phantom if it had come through the
middle.  A real what-if.
It might even have been able to operate off carriers.

Offline JC Carbonel

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2018, 11:34:41 am »
The K designation mistified me  (and my contact at Dassault) as well. the blueprint came direct from Dassault's vaults and there was no brochure to go with it. Considering previous Dassault designation ("O for Ostralia"), I suggested K for Kiwi (NZ) , Korea or Kuwait. New Zealand , coming after "Ostralia", seemed very plausible to me. The aircraft did not look like a fighter for me, more of an Anti-Shipping or Strike aircraft.

JCC

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2018, 11:59:15 am »
The Spey-engined Mirage IV (as alternative to the F-111 to replace the cancelled TSR.2) for the UK was designated IVK.

It is most logical to propose (in lieu of further information) that the IIIK was also proposed to the UK (and Spey-powered to boot). Makes more sense than New Zealand.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 12:10:51 pm by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Mirage IIIK
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2018, 12:07:15 pm »
Also - Mirage IVK was proposed in 1965, the same year as the IIIK drawing.
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