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Author Topic: Italian Heavy Fighters  (Read 39189 times)

Offline Maveric

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Italian Heavy Fighters
« on: November 21, 2007, 02:29:40 pm »
Hi all,

in 1939 in Italy was a contest for a Caccia-Comattimento (Heavy Fighter) in wich eight projects were entered:
1)  Macchi M.C. 301
2)  Caproni-Bergamasca Ca.350
3)  Romeo Ro.67
4)  Fiat C.R. 50 and C.R.55
5)  Bellomo C.B.
6)  Santangelo C.S.
7)  Savoia-Marchetti S.M.91
We know the Ro.67 and the S.M.91. Skybolt will publish a book about Caproni aircraft. But for the other aircraft I search drawings and technical data. Can anybody help?

Servus Maveric ::)
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Offline Apophenia

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2007, 04:28:46 pm »
Maveric,

I'm assuming that Bellomo CB is for the generic "Caccia Bellomo". "Progetto Caccia Bellomo" has been used to describe the Macchi-Bellomo M.B.902. Presumably, "CB" and Giovanni Bellomo's Macchi project are the same thing (do you want a 3-view of the M.B.902?).

Ca.350 (start 1939) - all-metal two-seat fighter. Engine: 1 x 1250 hp Isotta-Fraschini Zeta R.C.42 engine. Max speed of 402 m.p.h.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2026.msg17631

pometablava listed the Ca.350 as the "forerunner of the Ca 335". The Ca.335 Maestrale led, in turn, to the Belgian Sabca S.47. For images, see:
http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigator/Photos/MilltaryPics/interbellum/sabca_s_47.htm
[Note that the Ca.335 picture link at the bottom http://www.regiaaeronautica.it/aerei/Ca335.htm doesn't seem to work]

Specs for Ca.335/355 http://www.alatricolore.it/alatricolore/storici/c/caproni/ca335.htm

Rosatelli CR.50/CR.55? Hey, where's Tophe? ;D  He postulated the CR.50/55 as twin-fuselaged G-50 and G-50V derivatives.

Offline Maveric

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2007, 12:01:56 am »
Hi Apophenia,

many thanks for your infos. Im a little bit confused with the Bellomo CB: are Macchi-Bellomo M.B.902 and Umbra M.B.902 the same?
I know the Ca.335/355 and the SABCA S.47.

Servus Maveric :-\
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Offline Apophenia

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2007, 11:05:39 am »
Hi Maveric,

I should have said Bellomo's project with Muzio Macchi of Aeronautica Umbra.

As near as I can tell, the layouts for the "Progetto Caccia Bellomo" and the more familiar Umbra M.B.902 differ but the drive systems closely related. Both had wing-mounted contra-rotating propellers shaft-driven by engines in the fuselage.

In the "Progetto Caccia Bellomo", the pilot sat between the two engines. In the more modern-looking Umbra, both engines sit, in tandem, behind the cockpit. I presume that the latter is an evolution of the former.

Added: engines DB601s I forgot to mention that the "Progetto Caccia Bellomo" appears to have upright V-12s. The drawing is very sketchy but I assume these to be Isotta Fraschini Asso XI RC.40s (they don't look big enough to be 18-cyl Asso 1000s). The final M.B.902 had inverted DB605s, of course.

You've probably already seen http://www.geocities.com/lucktam/italian.htm

"Progetto Caccia Bellomo" was modified from here
http://www.tgplanes.com/Public/Snitz/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=18153&TOPIC_ID=1553&FORUM_ID=1
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 04:51:18 pm by Apophenia »

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2007, 01:08:10 am »
Actually the list of Caccia Combattimento contenders is longer: there were two round of competition. In the first Caproni-Taliedo submitted some five different projects. As for the CR-50/Cr-55 and bis versions (w/o central nacelle), it is five years now that I'm looking for them... Nothing is in the public available archives in FIAT Turin. They are surely in the remote storage archives in Pescarito (small village near Turin), but they are closed to the public and to researchers. I'm currently looking in the archives of the Air Force in Rome (been there last Friday) but nothing till now (I've found the Caproni designs, instead...).
Giovanni Bellomo was an airman, like the more renown Santangelo, and his project was included in the winner's list by authority of the Vice-Minister of the Air Force. Problems was that no big company wanted to build it... Muzio Macchi wasn't principally a designer, he was the CEO of Aeronautica Umbra. Actually the Bellomo's concept resurfaced a couple of year later in very poorly known project by Alfa Romeo, using a big unconventional engine. This is off-topic, do you want me to tell the story ?  :D
As for the Maveric's request, ok, I'll post some of the Caccia Combattimento projects...
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 01:33:06 am by Skybolt »

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2007, 01:35:45 am »
... Muzio Macchi wasn't principally a designer, he was the CEO of Aeronautica Umbra. Actually the Bellomo's concept resurfaced a couple of year later in very poorly known project by Alfa Romeo, using a big unconventional engine. This is off-topic, do you want me to tell the story ?  :D
As for the Maveric's request, ok, I'll post some of the Caccia Combattimento projects...


Yes please! :) And thanks for the clarifications.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2007, 01:39:10 am »
Ok, but first another note on the CB. The engines originally spec-ed were DB-601s.

Offline lucamax

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2012, 12:46:44 pm »
Dear friends,


I found the 3-views of the "Bimotore Santangelo" which I think it was a purpose for an heavy fighter (maybe the Santangelo C.S. of the topic, but I'm not sure about that). Unfortunately the picture was very very little and of bad quality, so I tried to enlarge a bit... Does someone have some info or better pictures about the project?

Offline MC72

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2012, 10:13:46 am »
Time ago, I got some material of  the Santangelo Sturmovino, characterized by its two engines "Monsone" license copy on the germn Daimler Benz DB-605 , Heavy armed with 2 guns and 3 machines guns
Saludos
MC72
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 04:06:15 pm by MC72 »
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Offline Nick Sumner

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2012, 11:53:58 am »
Forgive my ignorance - 'Santangelo' was that a designer, a design bureau, an aircraft manufacturer? It is new to me.

what does 'Sturmovino' mean?

Offline lucamax

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2012, 12:09:59 pm »
Wow MC72! A superb work! Do you know if a wind tunnel model has been built, or the project remained only on papaer? Thanks a lot!
(PS: please teach me how to paint like you  ;) )

Offline airman

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2012, 12:59:19 pm »
I suppose the "Santangelo Sturmovino" design was referred to Caproni CR.50 -55 projects !
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Offline Apophenia

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2012, 04:08:15 pm »
Forgive my ignorance - 'Santangelo' was that a designer, a design bureau, an aircraft manufacturer? It is new to me.

Gaspare Santangelo was an engineer and one of the 'Guidoniani' -- scientists and engineers working for the Corpo del Genio Aeronautico (the Aviation Corps of Engineers, headed by Ten.Gen. Alessandro Guidoni). Under the Direzione Superiore Studi ed Esperienze (DSSE) at Guidonia, concept design work was performed by the 'Guidoniani' including Santangelo. The results were then offered to industry.

Offline MC72

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2012, 08:01:38 pm »
Forgive my ignorance - 'Santangelo' was that a designer, a design bureau, an aircraft manufacturer? It is new to me.

what does 'Sturmovino' mean?

Gaspare Santangelo was an engineer belonging to the ranks of the Regia Aeronautica
Sturmovino means small "Sturmovich"
I have some pictures of a wooden model of Santangelo not a wind tunnel model but an ingeniering mock up for general study,
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 08:09:02 pm by MC72 »
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Offline Nick Sumner

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2012, 03:47:46 am »
Ok so the Direzione Superiore Studi ed Esperienze (DSSE) at Guidonia was a bit like the Royal Aircraft Establishment in the UK or the DVL in Germany?