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Author Topic: Italian Heavy Fighters  (Read 41529 times)

Offline Maveric

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Italian Heavy Fighters
« on: November 21, 2007, 02:29:40 pm »
Hi all,

in 1939 in Italy was a contest for a Caccia-Comattimento (Heavy Fighter) in wich eight projects were entered:
1)  Macchi M.C. 301
2)  Caproni-Bergamasca Ca.350
3)  Romeo Ro.67
4)  Fiat C.R. 50 and C.R.55
5)  Bellomo C.B.
6)  Santangelo C.S.
7)  Savoia-Marchetti S.M.91
We know the Ro.67 and the S.M.91. Skybolt will publish a book about Caproni aircraft. But for the other aircraft I search drawings and technical data. Can anybody help?

Servus Maveric ::)
I see you on the dark side of the moon.

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2007, 04:28:46 pm »
Maveric,

I'm assuming that Bellomo CB is for the generic "Caccia Bellomo". "Progetto Caccia Bellomo" has been used to describe the Macchi-Bellomo M.B.902. Presumably, "CB" and Giovanni Bellomo's Macchi project are the same thing (do you want a 3-view of the M.B.902?).

Ca.350 (start 1939) - all-metal two-seat fighter. Engine: 1 x 1250 hp Isotta-Fraschini Zeta R.C.42 engine. Max speed of 402 m.p.h.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2026.msg17631

pometablava listed the Ca.350 as the "forerunner of the Ca 335". The Ca.335 Maestrale led, in turn, to the Belgian Sabca S.47. For images, see:
http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigator/Photos/MilltaryPics/interbellum/sabca_s_47.htm
[Note that the Ca.335 picture link at the bottom http://www.regiaaeronautica.it/aerei/Ca335.htm doesn't seem to work]

Specs for Ca.335/355 http://www.alatricolore.it/alatricolore/storici/c/caproni/ca335.htm

Rosatelli CR.50/CR.55? Hey, where's Tophe? ;D  He postulated the CR.50/55 as twin-fuselaged G-50 and G-50V derivatives.

Offline Maveric

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2007, 12:01:56 am »
Hi Apophenia,

many thanks for your info´s. I´m a little bit confused with the Bellomo CB: are Macchi-Bellomo M.B.902 and Umbra M.B.902 the same?
I know the Ca.335/355 and the SABCA S.47.

Servus Maveric :-\
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Offline Apophenia

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2007, 11:05:39 am »
Hi Maveric,

I should have said Bellomo's project with Muzio Macchi of Aeronautica Umbra.

As near as I can tell, the layouts for the "Progetto Caccia Bellomo" and the more familiar Umbra M.B.902 differ but the drive systems closely related. Both had wing-mounted contra-rotating propellers shaft-driven by engines in the fuselage.

In the "Progetto Caccia Bellomo", the pilot sat between the two engines. In the more modern-looking Umbra, both engines sit, in tandem, behind the cockpit. I presume that the latter is an evolution of the former.

Added: engines DB601s I forgot to mention that the "Progetto Caccia Bellomo" appears to have upright V-12s. The drawing is very sketchy but I assume these to be Isotta Fraschini Asso XI RC.40s (they don't look big enough to be 18-cyl Asso 1000s). The final M.B.902 had inverted DB605s, of course.

You've probably already seen http://www.geocities.com/lucktam/italian.htm

"Progetto Caccia Bellomo" was modified from here
http://www.tgplanes.com/Public/Snitz/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=18153&TOPIC_ID=1553&FORUM_ID=1
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 04:51:18 pm by Apophenia »

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2007, 01:08:10 am »
Actually the list of Caccia Combattimento contenders is longer: there were two round of competition. In the first Caproni-Taliedo submitted some five different projects. As for the CR-50/Cr-55 and bis versions (w/o central nacelle), it is five years now that I'm looking for them... Nothing is in the public available archives in FIAT Turin. They are surely in the remote storage archives in Pescarito (small village near Turin), but they are closed to the public and to researchers. I'm currently looking in the archives of the Air Force in Rome (been there last Friday) but nothing till now (I've found the Caproni designs, instead...).
Giovanni Bellomo was an airman, like the more renown Santangelo, and his project was included in the winner's list by authority of the Vice-Minister of the Air Force. Problems was that no big company wanted to build it... Muzio Macchi wasn't principally a designer, he was the CEO of Aeronautica Umbra. Actually the Bellomo's concept resurfaced a couple of year later in very poorly known project by Alfa Romeo, using a big unconventional engine. This is off-topic, do you want me to tell the story ?  :D
As for the Maveric's request, ok, I'll post some of the Caccia Combattimento projects...
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 01:33:06 am by Skybolt »

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2007, 01:35:45 am »
... Muzio Macchi wasn't principally a designer, he was the CEO of Aeronautica Umbra. Actually the Bellomo's concept resurfaced a couple of year later in very poorly known project by Alfa Romeo, using a big unconventional engine. This is off-topic, do you want me to tell the story ?  :D
As for the Maveric's request, ok, I'll post some of the Caccia Combattimento projects...


Yes please! :) And thanks for the clarifications.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2007, 01:39:10 am »
Ok, but first another note on the CB. The engines originally spec-ed were DB-601s.

Offline lucamax

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2012, 12:46:44 pm »
Dear friends,


I found the 3-views of the "Bimotore Santangelo" which I think it was a purpose for an heavy fighter (maybe the Santangelo C.S. of the topic, but I'm not sure about that). Unfortunately the picture was very very little and of bad quality, so I tried to enlarge a bit... Does someone have some info or better pictures about the project?

Offline MC72

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2012, 10:13:46 am »
Time ago, I got some material of  the Santangelo Sturmovino, characterized by its two engines "Monsone" license copy on the germn Daimler Benz DB-605 , Heavy armed with 2 guns and 3 machines guns
Saludos
MC72
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 04:06:15 pm by MC72 »
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Offline Nick Sumner

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2012, 11:53:58 am »
Forgive my ignorance - 'Santangelo' was that a designer, a design bureau, an aircraft manufacturer? It is new to me.

what does 'Sturmovino' mean?

Offline lucamax

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2012, 12:09:59 pm »
Wow MC72! A superb work! Do you know if a wind tunnel model has been built, or the project remained only on papaer? Thanks a lot!
(PS: please teach me how to paint like you  ;) )

Offline airman

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2012, 12:59:19 pm »
I suppose the "Santangelo Sturmovino" design was referred to Caproni CR.50 -55 projects !
writers , bloggers , content-curators ,  music composer and passionate of militaria and uchronia

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2012, 04:08:15 pm »
Forgive my ignorance - 'Santangelo' was that a designer, a design bureau, an aircraft manufacturer? It is new to me.

Gaspare Santangelo was an engineer and one of the 'Guidoniani' -- scientists and engineers working for the Corpo del Genio Aeronautico (the Aviation Corps of Engineers, headed by Ten.Gen. Alessandro Guidoni). Under the Direzione Superiore Studi ed Esperienze (DSSE) at Guidonia, concept design work was performed by the 'Guidoniani' including Santangelo. The results were then offered to industry.

Offline MC72

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2012, 08:01:38 pm »
Forgive my ignorance - 'Santangelo' was that a designer, a design bureau, an aircraft manufacturer? It is new to me.

what does 'Sturmovino' mean?

Gaspare Santangelo was an engineer belonging to the ranks of the Regia Aeronautica
Sturmovino means small "Sturmovich"
I have some pictures of a wooden model of Santangelo not a wind tunnel model but an ingeniering mock up for general study,
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 08:09:02 pm by MC72 »
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Offline Nick Sumner

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2012, 03:47:46 am »
Ok so the Direzione Superiore Studi ed Esperienze (DSSE) at Guidonia was a bit like the Royal Aircraft Establishment in the UK or the DVL in Germany?

Offline archipeppe

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2012, 03:56:01 am »
Time ago, I got some material of  the Santangelo Sturmovino, characterized by its two engines "Monsone" license copy on the germn Daimler Benz DB-601 , Heavy armed with 2 guns and 3 machines guns
Saludos


Many thanks for such other precious drawing.


This the first time that I heard about this project, and in my opinion, it resemble more the Bf-110C "zerstorer" rather than any Russian "sturmovick"....

Offline Aviostoria

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2012, 01:26:03 pm »
From: Italian civil and military aircraft 1930-1945 of Jonathan Thompson
MB.902
Designed by Ing. Bellomo, the MB.902 twin-engined, single seat heavy fighter had just entered the final stages of construction when the events of September, 1943, put a halt to its development, and the prototype was destroyed.
An extremely unorthodox design, the all-metal MB.902 mounted two 1.475 hp. FIAT RA.1050 R.C. 58 Tifone (license-built DB 605A) twelve-cylinder vee engines buried in the fuselage and driving twin contra-rotanting airscrews in the wings by extension shaft. This resulted in a well-stramlined airframe with the advantage of centralized firepower (two 20-mm. cannon and four 12,7-mm. machine guns) without the drag of engines nacelles. A further refinement was the tricycle landind gear.
 
Note of Aviostoria:
L'ing. Andrea Bellomo was Capitain of Regia Aeronautica. The project was private venture of Bellomo and the construction was assigned of D.G.C.A. at firm Aeronautica Umbra S.A. Costruzioni Aeronautiche e Meccaniche of Foligno.

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2012, 08:24:40 pm »
Ok so the Direzione Superiore Studi ed Esperienze (DSSE) at Guidonia was a bit like the Royal Aircraft Establishment in the UK or the DVL in Germany?

Sort of. But, AFAIK, neither the post-Royal Aircraft Factory RAE nor the DVL  actually designed aircraft. They may have initiated concepts (eg: the Ju 49) or designed components but not actual aircraft. Does anyone know differently?

Offline MC72

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2012, 04:25:55 pm »
I found the Caproni Ca.380 Corsaro (Corsair); According to the competition was jointly selected with Savoia Marchetti SM.91 for more detailed assessments in Guidonia.
 Also found more information about the Santangelo fighter, which has a really strong arms, like two powerful 47 mm guns with 35 proiectiles each or replacing it with a one Ansaldo 75 mm gun! References submitted by  Gaspare Santangelo itself, in an interview for rvista "Aerotecnica" of 1946.
Saludos
MC72

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Offline Alcides

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2012, 10:24:15 pm »
Very interesting. Gracias MC72. The  Savoia Marchetti SM.91looks great I've found more information about that one.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2012, 07:22:02 am »
Er, gentlemen, no. No competition between the Ca-380/1 and the Sm-91/92.
You'll find the complete story in ISP, but I can anticipate that:
1) SM-92 was a derivative, conceived in January 1942 of the Sm-88, then in development as a very fast light bomber. The idea was to suppress the central fuselage and locate the pilots in the left one. SM-92 was of metallic construction
2) SM-91 as flown (actually there were three different "SM-91" between 1939 and 1943) too is a derivative of the Sm-88 from late 1942 and was originally designated SM-88D (for "distruttore", destroyer, zerstorer), intended for series production as a night fighter and development with DB-603s. Metallic construction.
3) Ca-380/1 is a project from late 1942 and was intended as an autarchic heavy fighter, entirely built of wood. The idea was to duplicate the Mosquito. There was no apparent competition, even though there is a number of projects dated from mid-1942 that are similar in scope. For example, the Sm-94.
Turning to DSSE, as an istitution they actually designed aircraft (for example the Guidonia-II bomber), and their employees indulged in participating to official competition (Santangelo, thrice, and Bellomo, twice, notably) or advocating private ventures (Trigona, for example). Not surprisingly, both Santangelo and Bellomo "won" their competitions, but no company actually built their design. I can add that another official institution, the Research Bureau of the Ispettorato Superiore Tecnico Militare (ISTEM) designed aircrafts. ISTEM depended from the Regia's Chief of Staff Office, while DSSE was a directorate of Ministero dell'Aeronautica.

Offline lark

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2012, 07:54:32 am »
Glad to see you back on the forum Marco  :)
Your expertise was dearly missed..

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2012, 03:42:37 am »
Hi,


there is misunderstanding in Umbra MB.902 designation,there were two drawings,
one to Bellomo as CB or SCA.901,and the other is MB.902.

Offline lucamax

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2012, 11:47:48 am »
The first design was the original draw of the Bellomo Fighter named C.B. (Caccia Bellomo) and the second was the final evolution of the same project but with heavy changes. In 1941 the program was given to AUSA (Aeronautica Umbra) and in the same year Bellomo started to modify his design. The final draw appeared in 1942 under the official name of MB 902.

Offline lark

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2012, 01:00:06 pm »
Thanks for your clarification Lucamax..

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2013, 09:34:27 am »
Hi,


for the Macchi MC.301,two prototypes,MM.438 & MM.439,but may be never
materialized.

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2013, 05:30:45 am »
Dear friends,


I found the 3-views of the "Bimotore Santangelo" which I think it was a purpose for an heavy fighter (maybe the Santangelo C.S. of the topic, but I'm not sure about that). Unfortunately the picture was very very little and of bad quality, so I tried to enlarge a bit... Does someone have some info or better pictures about the project?


Anther drawing to Santagelo C.S heavy fighter,note the rear gun of the canopy.


http://alternathistory.org.ua/tyazhelyi-istrebitel-ausa-mb902

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2013, 02:35:59 pm »
Thanks Hesham. I'm finding the article linked to somewhat confusing. It implies that the Bombardamento Santangelo was offered first to Breda (who declined), then to Piaggion which was to build the BS as their P.125. But I was under the impression that the P.125 was to have been a heavy fighter.

Elsewhere, the article seems to be saying that the Societa Construzioni Aeronautiche received the production order for the the Bombardamento Santangelo (as the SCA/Ansaldo Bombardier). But no mention of who was to build the Caccia Santangelo.

Does that mean that the two GAri designers were in direct competition? The Caccia Bellomo was chosen to be built by AUSA as the MB.902, therefore no production for the Caccia Santangelo design?

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2013, 03:00:40 pm »
Thanks Hesham. I'm finding the article linked to somewhat confusing. It implies that the Bombardamento Santangelo was offered first to Breda (who declined), then to Piaggion which was to build the BS as their P.125. But I was under the impression that the P.125 was to have been a heavy fighter.

Elsewhere, the article seems to be saying that the Societa Construzioni Aeronautiche received the production order for the the Bombardamento Santangelo (as the SCA/Ansaldo Bombardier). But no mention of who was to build the Caccia Santangelo.

Does that mean that the two GAri designers were in direct competition? The Caccia Bellomo was chosen to be built by AUSA as the MB.902, therefore no production for the Caccia Santangelo design?


My dear Apophenia,


can you send this article,to be honest,I have no more info about Santangelo fighter,may be the
Italian members can help us.

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2013, 10:54:37 am »
Hesham: My reference was to the 'alternathistory.org' link that you posted.

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2013, 11:02:56 am »
Yes my dear Apophenia,


but we would like to know the complete story of it.

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2013, 03:47:47 pm »
Hi,


here is the expected drawing to Fiat CR.55 twin fuselage fighter project.

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2013, 06:04:43 am »
Hi,


here is the expected drawing to Fiat CR.55 twin fuselage fighter project.


The source;
http://aviarmor.net/aww2/projects/ita/fiat_cr55.htm

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2014, 05:39:49 am »
Hi,


on 20 January 1936,the Air Staff asked for a multi-engine fighter/combat aircraft capable
to operate at 470 km/h,after elimination many aircraft and projects,such as Bonomi BS.25,
Jona J.10,IMAM Ro.53,Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600,they selected the Breda Ba.88
and Fiat CR.25.


And we spoke before about Canova aircraft,PC140 & PC1500,here;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5110.msg127170.html#msg127170
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19745.msg191432.html#msg191432


has anybody a more info about Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600 projects ?.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 05:41:50 am by hesham »

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2014, 07:51:31 am »
Hi,


on 20 January 1936,the Air Staff asked for a multi-engine fighter/combat aircraft capable
to operate at 470 km/h,after elimination many aircraft and projects,such as Bonomi BS.25,
Jona J.10,IMAM Ro.53,Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600,they selected the Breda Ba.88
and Fiat CR.25.


And we spoke before about Canova aircraft,PC140 & PC1500,here;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5110.msg127170.html#msg127170
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19745.msg191432.html#msg191432


has anybody a more info about Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600 projects ?.


Here is the article about those two projects,no one heard about them before ?.

Offline GTX

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2014, 11:49:12 am »
A pair found recently from the SIAI-Marchetti archives:

Savoia-Marchetti SM.91 heavy fighter prototype
Savoia-Marchetti SM.92 heavy fighter prototype in Luftwaffe markings.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 11:50:50 am by GTX »

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2015, 05:49:02 am »
Hi,


I think that I saw an info about Chiodi CH-2 in a magazine,but I don't remember its name
now ?.

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2015, 06:14:01 am »

on 20 January 1936,the Air Staff asked for a multi-engine fighter/combat aircraft capable
to operate at 470 km/h,after elimination many aircraft and projects,such as Bonomi BS.25,
Jona J.10,IMAM Ro.53,Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600,they selected the Breda Ba.88
and Fiat CR.25.

And we spoke before about Canova aircraft,PC140 & PC1500,here;

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5110.msg127170.html#msg127170
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19745.msg191432.html#msg191432

has anybody a more info about Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600 projects ?.


From a Russian book,


here is a small info about IMAM Ro.53 fighter project,who can translate ?.

Offline MC72

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2015, 07:45:38 am »
 Translation from russian


The work on the aircraft was used for reserve previously rejected project Ro.53 that somewhat simplified the task of engineers. Unlike other similar Italian machines development was one-place cabin, without any possibility of placing the rear rifle point. The design was produced by the classical scheme - wooden wings and a metal fuselage. Propulsion of two engines "Fiat" A.74 38 has a good total capacity that was to allow the fighter to reach a speed of at least 550 km/h. A little bit disappoint only weapons that co-stood just two 12.7 mm machine guns, section in the forward fuselage. Conceptually, and even outwardly the car resembled the British single twin-engine fighter "Whirlwind" the company "Westland", but "British" had a much stronger-in-equipment  of four 20 mm cannon.


 
 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 07:50:16 am by MC72 »
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Offline Maveric

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2015, 11:39:39 am »
WOW, will be nice to see drawings of this one... :'(
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Offline Silencer1

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2015, 12:12:27 pm »
Dear MC72!


In phrase "...the car resembled..." word "car" (road vehicle) has been incorrectly translation of Russian "mashina" (machine) which could mean vehicle, mechanism etc.
So, aircraft could be named "machine" in this text to prevent frequently mentioning the word "aircraft"


Thanks for translation!


P.S. I wonder if Russian magazine could knew more about Italian fighter' project, that Italian sourcres

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2015, 02:39:22 pm »
Many thanks MC72.

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2015, 03:26:19 pm »
Hi,


here is a full info about Chiodi CH.2 heavy fighter in Italian book,has anyone have it ?.


http://www.logisma.it/collana%20Aviazione%20LoGisma.pdf

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2016, 01:25:43 pm »

on 20 January 1936,the Air Staff asked for a multi-engine fighter/combat aircraft capable
to operate at 470 km/h,after elimination many aircraft and projects,such as Bonomi BS.25,
Jona J.10,IMAM Ro.53,Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600,they selected the Breda Ba.88
and Fiat CR.25.


And we spoke before about Canova aircraft,PC140 & PC1500,here;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5110.msg127170.html#msg127170
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19745.msg191432.html#msg191432


has anybody a more info about Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600 projects ?.

Can I ask if Nardi FN.500 Fighter-Bomber Project involved in this competition or not ?.

Offline blackkite

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2016, 05:44:42 pm »
Is this a Ca.380,too?
Top drawing forget to have radiator. ???
http://www.oocities.org/asymmetrics/cors.htm
http://forum.worldofwarplanes.com/index.php?/topic/2165-caproni-ca380-corsaro/
Ca.380
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2984.0;attach=168735;image

"This version of the twin-boom "Corsaro" is described briefly in the June 1960 RAF Flying Review (Page 50): "At one stage in the design the possibility of abbreviating the port boom to result in an asymmetrical aircraft a la Blohn und Voss was considered."  (via Linzi Mumford)"
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 11:32:07 pm by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2016, 12:58:19 am »
Hi Macchi Bellomo M.B.902!
We can see radiators both side of the fuselage in skeletal plan view drawing.
And also we can see four propeller drive shafts through wing because of contra rotating prop. It's a really Italian design!!
Propeller spinner diameter between No1. drawing and No.3 drawing are apparentlt different. ???
Perhaps we must take care that M.B.902 had contra rotating propeller.
I vote to No.3 drawing. ;D

Specification AUSA MB. 902
Wingspan, m : 14.35
Length, m : 14.51
Height, m : 3.37
Wing area m2 : 31.70
Mass, kg (an empty plane) : 5738
normal takeoff : 7185
Engine type :
2 × FIAT RA. 1050 RC. 58 Typhoon (Diamler-Benz DB 601A)
Power, l, c, : 2 × 1475
Maximum speed, km/h :
690 at an altitude of 6000 m
Cruising speed, km/h : 420
Time sets the height of 6000 m : 6 min. 22 sec.
Range, km : 1700
Range, km : 765
Service ceiling, m : 10500
Crew, pers : 1
Armament : 2 × 20 mm Mauser 151/20,4 × 12.7 mm Breda Mod. 1935

Russian site is super.
http://alternathistory.com/tyazhelyi-istrebitel-ausa-mb902

Where is the radiator?
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=292.0;attach=137204;image

pdf file.
http://aviarmor.net/aww2/_photo_exp_a/_italy/umbra%20mb.902/MB902.pdf
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 05:18:18 pm by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2016, 06:02:11 am »
Partial auto translation of Russian site.
Heavy fighter AUSA MB. 902
・・・・・・・・
Aeronautica Umbra of Foligno in the enterprise (Macchi) under construction of the first prototype was MB. 902 (MM519).
The first project, which is known from a drawing with three kinds of shows us an airplane, vaguely similar to IMAM Ro 57: with very thin fuselage and small administering surfaces. A key feature was the location of two Isotta Fraschini engines-l. 180 in the fuselage, one in front and one behind the cockpit, but first figure found Alfa-Romeo RA 1000 RC. 411 Monsone (Daimler-Benz DB 601A-1). These engines, with radiators located on the underside of the wing (consoles were located fuel tanks), passed the motion design screws Bellomo (two dvuhlopastnyh screws opposite rotation alternating step in flight) through gears to ensure turn on 90°.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2984.0;attach=175018;image
In practice, the plane took the form of a normal aircraft twin-engine two phony profiled motor nacelles. Original description was talking about the possibility of razdvaivat′ the screws themselves, placing them in "tandem" (two screws on the front and back edges of the wing), but this configuration does not exist illustrations and it's easy to assume that she was rejected due to the additional complexities.
The plane was a single-seat monoplane with equal sizes of length and wingspan (approximately 11.65 m) and traditional chassis with tail support. Armament was concentrated in the nose of the plane and consisted of four 12.7 mm Breda machine guns Mod. 1935.

(Apparently September 7, 1939 Captain Bellomo was ordered to build a flying prototype with propulsion in the nose in anticipation of the first flight model.
In July 1941 the year engineer Bellomo went to Foligno, where he met with the Director of AUSA Muzio Macchi in order to implement the project. Immediately after this, 5 July, Bellomo was invited to two engines FIAT RA. 1050 RC. 58 Typhoon (Daimler-Benz DB605A-1), which, according to his statements, the first prototype was ready for flight in the summer of 1943 year. It is possible that at this stage the project was radically revised, because further illustrate that we have this show as another plane.)

Stray far from the project forms characteristic of the thirties, to adopt a more modern look with highly located wing trehopornyh chassis with nasal and četyrehlopastnymi screw
The bibliography contains references to two prototypes in a slightly different configuration (fighter and interceptor/anti-tank) first dealt with the take-off weight of 6700 kg, a maximum speed of 690 km/h and range in 1200 km with armament of two 20 mm cannon and two 12.7 mm machine guns. For the second configuration, the wing area increased from 30 m2 to 31.7 m 2, up to 7200 kg at a speed of 680 km/h and range 1700 km. Submitted drawings will most likely belong to a unified configuration, with features of both versions, and the wing area is different from the minimum 31.7 m 2.

Order for production of two prototypes MB. 902 (MM. 519 and 520 MM) was officially approved by DGCA April 19, 1942, but it appears that the active construction proceeded very slowly. Anyway, the first prototype was captured at the airfield during the Armistice and was destroyed.(Really? Any picture?) The construction of the second, most likely didn't start with the exception of certain structural elements
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 05:27:22 pm by blackkite »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2016, 01:02:01 pm »
A pair found recently from the SIAI-Marchetti archives:

Savoia-Marchetti SM.91 heavy fighter prototype
Savoia-Marchetti SM.92 heavy fighter prototype in Luftwaffe markings.

These photos appear in the Green/Swanborough book 'The Complete Book of Fighters', published in 1994, pages 527/528 along with a couple of other photos of them and 3-Views of both. They also appear in a card set I was collecting during the 80's.  There's even 1/72 vacuform kits of them done by a company called KPL Models which was selling them pre-1994.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 04:03:25 pm by kitnut617 »
If I'm not building models, I'm riding my dirtbike

Offline blackkite

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2016, 06:29:22 am »
Hi! Jona J.10.

http://planetoplano.blogspot.jp/2013/04/the-jona-that-never-took-off.html

http://alternathistory.com/italyanskie-bumazhnye-proekty-proekt-dvukhmotornogo-istrebitelya-jona-10

Specifications
Wingspan, m : 12.75
Length, m : 8.80
Height, m : 3.20
Wing area (flight), m ² : 26.82 (landing gear removed)
Wing area (landing configuration), m ² : 28.82 (chassis released)
The theoretical area when landing, m ² : 39.80 (creation of high lifting force)
Empty aircraft weight, kg : 2000
Payload, kg : 1400
Total weight, kg : 3400
Engine power, HP : 1800
engine Piaggio P. XI. R.C., 30 HP : 980
engine Isotta Fraschini Asso XI R. C. 45, HP : 820
Maximum speed at sea level (2) km/h : 530
Maximum speed at an altitude of 4500 m (2) km/h : 600
The minimum speed of the Earth with flaps, km/h : 105
Cruising speed at an altitude of 2000 m (2) km/h : 500
Cruising speed at an altitude of 2000 m (1 engine), km/h : 385
Ceiling (theoretical), m : 14000
Time-to-height 5000 m : 4 ' 30 "
Range with two working engines, km : 700
Range with one engine running, km : 1000
Wing loading flight, kg/m ² : 127 (landing gear removed)
Wing loading landing, kg/m ² : 118 (chassis released)
Wing loading theoretical when landing, kg/m ² : 86 (establishment of high lifting force)
I wonder how to cool rear engine? ???
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 02:12:41 pm by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2016, 07:43:32 am »
Hi!
Table 1 auto translation and add some correction.
Perhaps MACCHI C.301 had skin cooler.
SM 91 early plan had trimotor.
http://alternathistory.com/italyanskie-bumazhnye-proekty-proekty-santandgelo
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 02:07:13 pm by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2016, 02:19:14 pm »
Hi! IMAM Ro.57.

Offline blackkite

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2016, 02:20:46 pm »
Ca.350.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caproni_Ca.350
The Caproni Ca.350 was an Italian single-engined project of two-seat fighter-bomber/reconnaissance aircraft of the 1930s. Designed by Cesare Pallavicino to meet a requirement of the Regia Aeronautica, it was an innovative and fast design to have been powered by an Isotta Fraschini Zeta R.C.42, but no aircraft were built.

Data from Museo Caproni documentation (Trento - Italia)
General characteristics
Crew: 2
Length: 10.62 m (34 ft 10 in)
Wingspan: 13.28 m (43 ft 7 in)
Height: 3.20 m (10 ft 6 in)
Wing area: 23.8 m2 (256 sq ft)
Empty weight: 2,250 kg (4,960 lb)
Gross weight: 3,240 kg (7,143 lb) (reconnaissance mission)
Powerplant: 1 × Isotta-Fraschini Zeta R.C.42 air-cooled X-24 piston engine, 930 kW (1,250 hp) (take-off power)
Propellers: 3-bladed bladed constant speed
Performance
Maximum speed: 647 km/h; 349 kn (402 mph) at 4,200 m (13,780 ft)
Range: 1,448 km; 782 nmi (900 mi) at 4,000 m (13,120 ft) (reconnaissance mission)
Endurance: 4 hr 30 s
Service ceiling: 9,501 m (31,170 ft)
Armament
Guns:
1x 20 mm (0.787 in) cannon firing through propeller hub
2x 7.62 mm (0.300 in) machine-guns in the wings
1x 7.62 mm (0.300 in) machine gun in rear cockpit
Bombs: 200 kg (440 lb) under wings and fuselage
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 02:27:01 pm by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2016, 04:46:55 pm »
Larger image.

Offline blackkite

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2016, 02:12:30 pm »
Hi! Caproni Ca.335.(SABCA S.47)
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/s47.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caproni_Ca.335

"The Caproni Ca.335 Maestrale (Mistral) was an Italian single-engined two-seat fighter-bomber/reconnaissance aircraft of the 1930s. It was designed by Caproni to meet a requirement of the Belgian Air Force, with it being planned that the aircraft would be built under licence by the Belgian company SABCA as the SABCA S.47. Only a single aircraft was built, production plans being stopped by the German invasion of Belgium in May 1940."

PDF file.
http://www.belgian-wings.be/webpages/navigator/photos/MilltaryPics/interbellum/Sabca%20S47/SabcaS47_CharlesMalipwd.pdf
The SABCA S. 47, "L'Aviation Belge", 1938 (French)
http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/250439-belgium-the-sabca-s-47-34l39aviation-belge34-1938-french/
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 06:13:39 pm by blackkite »

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2016, 06:06:30 am »
Hi,

a small Info about Macchi MC.301,it was twin engined Project,powered by two
Daimler-Benz DB 601 engines.

Italian Aviation Research Branch of Air Britain 1975-04

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2016, 02:09:14 pm »
According to Gregory Alegi, the Macchi MC.301 was to be powered by two 1,200 hp Fiat A.38 V-16 driving contraprops.

Quote
Also in March 1940, the Regia Aeronautica ordered three experimental and 12 production A.38 engines, intended for the G.55 and twin-engined Macchi MC.301 prototypes. Meanwhile, Reggiane set to work on adapting the Re.2000 to take the DB 601, thus creating the Re.2001, which made its first flight in June 1940.

pg.24  https://www.scribd.com/document/265012299/Italia-Wartime-Fighter-Crisis

The matricola militare MM438 and MM439 were reserved for MC.301 prototypes.

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2016, 02:19:54 pm »
Thank you my dear Apophenia,

maybe my source was wrong ?.

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2016, 11:23:46 am »
"maybe my source was wrong ?."

Not necessarilly.

I know nothing about the MC.301. But, while the Fiat G.55 was planned around the Fiat AS.38 RC.15-40, the engine never appeared in flight-ready form. The G.55 had to be redesigned for the DB.605. The DB.601 would have been roughly in the same power class as the AS.38 RC.15-40, around 1200 hp. And the DB.601 was substituted for less satisfactory engines in other adapted, twin-engined, Italian aircraft, notably the C.A.N.S.A FC.2Oquater and I.M.A.M RO.58.  So perhaps the MC.301 designers chose the DB.601 as a substitute.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 11:25:59 am by iverson »

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #58 on: September 10, 2016, 12:22:22 pm »
Hi Iverson,

here is the page about MC.301.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 12:24:16 pm by hesham »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2016, 04:24:38 pm »
Hi! Another IMAM.Ro57 bis drawing with large window?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 04:58:03 am by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2016, 05:03:41 am »

Offline Cy-27

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2016, 05:15:46 am »
Translation of the modellers entry:

"
from above
The prototype at the time of testing, the prototype presented in Guidonia (MM407) (top & bottom - ro-10.png )
The mono-gun version (MM75314, MM75316 / MM75354) (top -  ro-11.png )
The twin-gun version (MM75355 / MM75513) (bottom -  ro-11.png )
The square-gun [sic - four gun?] version (MM75315)  (ro-12.png )

With the arrows I highlighted all the different parts between models and modifications to do on my model under construction."
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 05:19:12 am by Cy-27 »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2016, 02:47:55 pm »
Wow thanks a lot. Super!! :D

Offline blackkite

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« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 05:51:18 am by blackkite »

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2016, 06:23:33 am »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2016, 03:22:05 pm »
Oh MB.902!! Thanks a lot. :D Single propeller? Propotion is good.
This document says that span is 14.36m, length is 14.32m.Wing area is 31.7 square m.
Another document says that span is 14.35m, length is 14.51m.Wing area is 31.7 square m.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2984.0;attach=564834;image

Other drawings are here.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2984.0;attach=561899;image

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2984.0;attach=560640;image
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 09:39:45 pm by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #66 on: November 30, 2016, 05:24:57 am »
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 05:27:53 am by blackkite »

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2017, 03:23:12 pm »

on 20 January 1936,the Air Staff asked for a multi-engine fighter/combat aircraft capable
to operate at 470 km/h,after elimination many aircraft and projects,such as Bonomi BS.25,
Jona J.10,IMAM Ro.53,Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600,they selected the Breda Ba.88
and Fiat CR.25.

Also Umbra TR.18,Caproni-Reggiane Ca.401,Caproni Ca.150 & Ca.162 were involved.

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2017, 04:24:26 am »

on 20 January 1936,the Air Staff asked for a multi-engine fighter/combat aircraft capable
to operate at 470 km/h,after elimination many aircraft and projects,such as Bonomi BS.25,
Jona J.10,IMAM Ro.53,Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600,they selected the Breda Ba.88
and Fiat CR.25.

Also Umbra TR.18,Caproni-Reggiane Ca.401,Caproni Ca.150 & Ca.162 were involved.

I want to know the different between Umbra AUT.18 and TR.18,I know the first was a single
engined fighter and the second was a twin engined heavy fighter (as I guess) ?.

Offline lucamax

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #69 on: May 14, 2017, 03:21:11 am »
Dear,
here it is the Breda 600 heavy fighter single seater project, designed in november 1938 by Mario Pittoni and Vittorio Calderini.
According to the source (Gente dell'Aria - Giorgio Evangelisti), the project was studied around 2 Isotta Fraschini Asso and it was armed with 2 machine gun of 12,7 mm.
The calculated speed was of 600 km/h.
The project, however, remained only to the papaer.
Regards.

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #70 on: May 14, 2017, 09:15:37 am »
You made my day.

Offline blockhaj

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #71 on: May 14, 2017, 10:46:40 am »
I remember doing research on italian heavy fighters a while ago and found some monster with 8x 20mm guns. Which one was that?
-                                 |ŻŻŻnŻŻŻ|
-                      ______o__(_)__o_______
-                                 |      |      |   
-                                 °      °      °
-                                Saab J-21R

Offline Drive

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2017, 02:43:28 pm »
I remember doing research on italian heavy fighters a while ago and found some monster with 8x 20mm guns. Which one was that?
Probably it was the Breda BZ.303 Leone II https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_BZ_303

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2017, 03:51:34 pm »
Hi

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #74 on: September 27, 2017, 08:38:05 am »

on 20 January 1936,the Air Staff asked for a multi-engine fighter/combat aircraft capable
to operate at 470 km/h,after elimination many aircraft and projects,such as Bonomi BS.25,
Jona J.10,IMAM Ro.53,Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC.1600,they selected the Breda Ba.88
and Fiat CR.25.

Also Umbra TR.18,Caproni-Reggiane Ca.401,Caproni Ca.150 & Ca.162 were involved.

I want to know the different between Umbra AUT.18 and TR.18,I know the first was a single
engined fighter and the second was a twin engined heavy fighter (as I guess) ?.

I get the difference,the TR.18 was a two-seat ground attack aircraft Project when Mr. Felice
Trojani was in USSR,but after he return to Italy,he redesigned his early concept as AUT.18,
but as a single-seat heavy fighter airplane ?.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 05:00:55 am by hesham »

Offline blockhaj

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2017, 10:06:26 am »
I remember doing research on italian heavy fighters a while ago and found some monster with 8x 20mm guns. Which one was that?
Probably it was the Breda BZ.303 Leone II https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_BZ_303
No something that was built, there was a black and a white photo i remember showing 8 clear 20 mm's mounted, 4 in wings and 4 in the nose. I seriously cant find it now. :C
Maybe it was a mockup?
-                                 |ŻŻŻnŻŻŻ|
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-                                 |      |      |   
-                                 °      °      °
-                                Saab J-21R

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #76 on: July 25, 2018, 03:11:36 am »
Back again. There will be in a very short term some news abot initially the SM-91/92, both derivatives of the SM-88 (in reverse order).
BTW, the drawing of the CR-55 in some post ago is complete fantasy. No one has seen a drawing of it in the last 73 years, or at least bothered to publish it anywhere (the 1945 date is not random chosen).
And, BTW, if it was even remotely similar to the true one, it would have been a CR-55bis. The straigth version had a central  fuselage, a la' P-38.  Please beware of fakes or flights of fancy.
Cheers

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #77 on: July 28, 2018, 01:37:35 pm »
Dear,
here it is the Breda 600 heavy fighter single seater project, designed in november 1938 by Mario Pittoni and Vittorio Calderini.
According to the source (Gente dell'Aria - Giorgio Evangelisti), the project was studied around 2 Isotta Fraschini Asso and it was armed with 2 machine gun of 12,7 mm.
The calculated speed was of 600 km/h.
The project, however, remained only to the papaer.
Regards.

 Weren't most of the Asso-named engines upright, liquid-cooled types? I think that they are air-cooled, inverted, IF Delta V-12 engines.

The front view clearly shows that the engines are an inverted type, with what I take to be exhaust stubs on the inside of the V, like the Delta. The oval front intake is also typical of the Delta, and the oblong objects on the outside of the nacelles in the side view could be fairings for the cooling air exiting the cylinder baffles. Two would produce 1400-1500 hp, which seems about right for the time.


Offline Skybolt

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #78 on: August 02, 2018, 06:37:19 am »
Assos were all upright V or W liquid cooled. The Delta series (I to IV) were inverted v and air cooled. Indeed, the fact that an aircraft was Delta-powered is immediately betrayed by the V air intake under to propeller shaft.

Offline zeroc

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #79 on: August 04, 2018, 06:03:12 am »
Dear,
here it is the Breda 600 heavy fighter single seater project, designed in november 1938 by Mario Pittoni and Vittorio Calderini.
According to the source (Gente dell'Aria - Giorgio Evangelisti), the project was studied around 2 Isotta Fraschini Asso and it was armed with 2 machine gun of 12,7 mm.
The calculated speed was of 600 km/h.
The project, however, remained only to the papaer.
Regards.

...now is also on your screens!  ;D

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #80 on: August 05, 2018, 08:29:14 am »
Well done my dear Zeroc.

Offline MC72

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #81 on: August 15, 2018, 11:25:58 am »
Years ago i made several art work about the Santangelo heavy fighter called also "Sturmovino" for the better know Russian Sturmovik, because can do ground attack with the cannon under belly.
 
Always around

Offline MC72

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #82 on: August 15, 2018, 11:54:27 am »
Ing. Celestino Rosatelli very well Know for the previous biplane family fighters, also projected a heavy fighter/bomber the FIAT CR.44 planned around the 2,400 hp (1,790 kW) FIAT A.44 engine capable to power a contra-rotating propellers solution. The A.44 X-32 engine never was built, so nor the CR.44.
Always around

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #83 on: August 16, 2018, 06:26:55 am »
Wow,many thanks my dear MC72.

Offline Ifor

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #84 on: August 16, 2018, 08:29:10 am »
I really do hope the do an Italian or Axis secret projects at sometime.

Offline sgeorges4

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #85 on: August 17, 2018, 08:07:49 am »
Years ago i made several art work about the Santangelo heavy fighter called also "Sturmovino" for the better know Russian Sturmovik, because can do ground attack with the cannon under belly.
 
italian bf 110?  ;D

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #86 on: October 28, 2018, 04:39:24 am »
From Aerofan 1983-2

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #87 on: March 05, 2019, 05:27:16 am »
From Ailes 7/1948,

the Caproni Ca.380.

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #88 on: March 09, 2019, 05:04:27 am »
Dear,
here it is the Breda 600 heavy fighter single seater project, designed in november 1938 by Mario Pittoni and Vittorio Calderini.
According to the source (Gente dell'Aria - Giorgio Evangelisti), the project was studied around 2 Isotta Fraschini Asso and it was armed with 2 machine gun of 12,7 mm.
The calculated speed was of 600 km/h.
The project, however, remained only to the papaer.
Regards.

By the way,

it was not its correct designation (Breda-600),and I think it took any of the designation Ba 80s
or 90s series.

Offline hesham

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Re: Italian Heavy Fighters
« Reply #89 on: March 17, 2019, 06:41:24 am »
From Ali Nuove 6/1960,

the Ca.380 Corsaro and its variants ?!.