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Author Topic: Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich  (Read 7706 times)

Offline Zizi6785

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Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich
« Reply #105 on: December 06, 2017, 01:33:29 am »
What about P.210.01 and 02?

Offline newsdeskdan

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Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich
« Reply #106 on: December 06, 2017, 02:08:41 am »
What about P.210.01 and 02?

The only P 210 I'm aware of as entirely genuine and based on a verified original drawing is the top one, labelled P 210.01. It's in German Aircraft: New and Projected Types. From what I can tell, the P 210 was very quickly dismissed in favour of the more conventional P 211 - however, the matter of the P 210 is an ongoing investigation and I am hopeful of turning up more info on it soon.
“This modular concept we have called MUSTARD (Multi Unit Space Transport and Recovery Device), and has been the subject of considerable detailed work.” Tom Smith, BAC Preston

Offline Zizi6785

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Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich
« Reply #107 on: December 06, 2017, 02:55:08 am »
Oh, how much discredited drawing...

Offline newsdeskdan

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Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich
« Reply #108 on: December 06, 2017, 03:19:19 am »
Oh, how much discredited drawing...

I think there was a feeling at the time, which strongly persists today, that readers were not that bothered about seeing the original drawings, particularly if they looked tatty or in any way unclear. Re-drawing made the designs clear and allowed for uniformity throughout a book where otherwise the drawings might have varied widely in quality and execution. These re-drawings were seldom, if ever, presented as re-drawings, they were just 'the drawings'.
The problem has been one of timescale. Over the course of the last 72 years or so, designs have been re-drawn, then later artists unable to find or access the originals, or not realising the true nature of the drawings appearing in books, or simply not caring either way have re-drawn those re-drawings. Details such as panel lines that were not in the originals were added. Where the originals existed only as 'concepts' without features such as radiators, undercarriage detail, cannon, bomb racks etc. these details were filled in based on a 'best guess'.
Then the re-drawings were re-drawn again and speculative designs (often based on nothing more than text descriptions) also entered the mix. So now it has become very difficult to tell what's 'real', what's 'speculative' and what's mere fantasy. I have no doubt that sooner or later someone will present the Horten Ho 347 Fledermaus from Paolo Parente's Dust as a 'real' project.
So over nearly three-quarters of a century it would appear that some popular designs have moved further and further away from what their original creators intended. To some, perhaps many or even most, this doesn't really matter. It's just an interesting period of history upon which to cast a glance. I was curious, however, to see which designs had genuine historical provenance.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 03:34:23 am by newsdeskdan »
“This modular concept we have called MUSTARD (Multi Unit Space Transport and Recovery Device), and has been the subject of considerable detailed work.” Tom Smith, BAC Preston

Offline steelpillow

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Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich
« Reply #109 on: December 06, 2017, 12:47:47 pm »
David Masters in German Jet Genesis describes the P.201.02 as having a constant-chord straight wing and conventional tail. It's sheer mundane quality makes it more believable than the average fantasy elaboration, but as he doesn't give his sources, who knows.
Cheers.

Offline newsdeskdan

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Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich
« Reply #110 on: December 06, 2017, 03:06:48 pm »
David Masters in German Jet Genesis describes the P.201.02 as having a constant-chord straight wing and conventional tail. It's sheer mundane quality makes it more believable than the average fantasy elaboration, but as he doesn't give his sources, who knows.

Is that a description of the P 211.02? Also, what do you know about David Masters?

NB. After you mentioned Pohlmann above, I was inspired to revisit my copy - and the drawings within certainly served to illustrate the point I was making with regard to inaccurate/elaborated re-draws.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 01:31:36 am by newsdeskdan »
“This modular concept we have called MUSTARD (Multi Unit Space Transport and Recovery Device), and has been the subject of considerable detailed work.” Tom Smith, BAC Preston

Offline steelpillow

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Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich
« Reply #111 on: December 07, 2017, 01:47:20 am »
David Masters in German Jet Genesis describes the P.201.02 as having a constant-chord straight wing and conventional tail. It's sheer mundane quality makes it more believable than the average fantasy elaboration, but as he doesn't give his sources, who knows.

Is that a description of the P 211.02?

Sorry. my mistake, it is the P.210.02. He offers no drawing of the P.201 and only the one low-set swept wing and tail for the P.211.

Quote
NB. After you mentioned Pohlmann above, I was inspired to revisit my copy - and the drawings within certainly served to illustrate the point I was making with regard to inaccurate/elaborated re-draws.

Pohlmann's drawings appear to have been prepared by one Rolf Struve, mostly from MBB/HFB company archive material. Without seeing those archives, I'd hate to be dogmatic.

Almost all these projects were constantly being revised and refined, and any given drawing is just a snapshot of that moment's progress. It think that sometimes, we seek more hard details than were ever really there.
Cheers.

Offline newsdeskdan

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Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich
« Reply #112 on: December 07, 2017, 02:12:58 am »
David Masters in German Jet Genesis describes the P.201.02 as having a constant-chord straight wing and conventional tail. It's sheer mundane quality makes it more believable than the average fantasy elaboration, but as he doesn't give his sources, who knows.

Is that a description of the P 211.02?

Sorry. my mistake, it is the P.210.02. He offers no drawing of the P.201 and only the one low-set swept wing and tail for the P.211.

Quote
NB. After you mentioned Pohlmann above, I was inspired to revisit my copy - and the drawings within certainly served to illustrate the point I was making with regard to inaccurate/elaborated re-draws.

Pohlmann's drawings appear to have been prepared by one Rolf Struve, mostly from MBB/HFB company archive material. Without seeing those archives, I'd hate to be dogmatic.

Almost all these projects were constantly being revised and refined, and any given drawing is just a snapshot of that moment's progress. It think that sometimes, we seek more hard details than were ever really there.

Sorry, I believe the drawings in Pohlmann are indefensible. I am happy to be proven wrong. Be that as it may, I modified my earlier response to enquire after your knowledge of David Masters. I do not have his (1983 1982, apparently) book. Do you know anything about him as an author? I only ask because internet searches for 'author David Masters' turn up some interesting results.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 03:02:49 pm by newsdeskdan »
“This modular concept we have called MUSTARD (Multi Unit Space Transport and Recovery Device), and has been the subject of considerable detailed work.” Tom Smith, BAC Preston

Offline steelpillow

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Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich
« Reply #113 on: December 07, 2017, 07:57:10 am »
Be that as it may, I modified my earlier response to enquire after your knowledge of David Masters. I do not have his (1983, apparently) book. Do you know anything about him as an author? I only ask because internet searches for 'author David Masters' turn up some interesting results.

Library Thing reckons those are not the David Masters you are looking for: https://www.librarything.com/author/mastersdavid

His book is published by Jane's, which ought to lend some credibility, and at the back he does give some clues as to his sources; "The contents of this book have been complied over a number of years from a vast number of major and minor references." He then lists some nine major documents, including books by the likes of Green or Novarra, and miscellaneous stuff such as A.I.2(G) Report No. 2383 to the Air Reserve Gazette. All in all, he does not appear to have been particularly selective - he gives credence to several flying saucer tall tales with no more qualification than the "multiple sources say" variety - so in this respect I treat it as a source book of stories to bear in mind until one can check them out, nothing more. I also find it a very useful quick-finder, having all the projects illustrated and listed by manufacturer.
Cheers.

Offline newsdeskdan

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Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich
« Reply #114 on: December 07, 2017, 10:53:24 am »
Be that as it may, I modified my earlier response to enquire after your knowledge of David Masters. I do not have his (1983, apparently) book. Do you know anything about him as an author? I only ask because internet searches for 'author David Masters' turn up some interesting results.

Library Thing reckons those are not the David Masters you are looking for: https://www.librarything.com/author/mastersdavid

His book is published by Jane's, which ought to lend some credibility, and at the back he does give some clues as to his sources; "The contents of this book have been complied over a number of years from a vast number of major and minor references." He then lists some nine major documents, including books by the likes of Green or Novarra, and miscellaneous stuff such as A.I.2(G) Report No. 2383 to the Air Reserve Gazette. All in all, he does not appear to have been particularly selective - he gives credence to several flying saucer tall tales with no more qualification than the "multiple sources say" variety - so in this respect I treat it as a source book of stories to bear in mind until one can check them out, nothing more. I also find it a very useful quick-finder, having all the projects illustrated and listed by manufacturer.

Mmm. The 'first' David Masters appears to have been a pen-name associated with boys' own type titles. What do you suppose the chances are that David Masters II is also a pen-name...?
“This modular concept we have called MUSTARD (Multi Unit Space Transport and Recovery Device), and has been the subject of considerable detailed work.” Tom Smith, BAC Preston

Offline steelpillow

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Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich
« Reply #115 on: December 07, 2017, 11:26:43 am »
What do you suppose the chances are that David Masters II is also a pen-name...?

Fairly small. Authors of serious publications seldom use pen-names. You would be more likely to find some pulp fiction peddler called Topman Wellbeloved or whatever to be a pen-name of our David Masters.
Oh.... ;)

(subtle etymological joke there, sorry)
Cheers.

Offline newsdeskdan

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Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich
« Reply #116 on: December 07, 2017, 11:41:14 am »
What do you suppose the chances are that David Masters II is also a pen-name...?

Fairly small. Authors of serious publications seldom use pen-names. You would be more likely to find some pulp fiction peddler called Topman Wellbeloved or whatever to be a pen-name of our David Masters.
Oh.... ;)

(subtle etymological joke there, sorry)

Odd how David Masters II never wrote anything else and next to nothing is known about him - even in association with Jane's. I would be tempted to place him in the same category as the anonymous author of another 'catch-all' projects tome - Secret German Aircraft Projects of 1945: Based on British Air Intelligence Reports, 1945-46 from Toros Publishing. Or Galapagos Publishing, depending on which version you get.
“This modular concept we have called MUSTARD (Multi Unit Space Transport and Recovery Device), and has been the subject of considerable detailed work.” Tom Smith, BAC Preston

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich
« Reply #117 on: December 07, 2017, 12:47:51 pm »
Hi

Offline newsdeskdan

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Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich
« Reply #118 on: December 07, 2017, 03:14:21 pm »
Hi

Masters, whoever he is/was, got it wrong. That's the P 211.02, rather than the P 210.02. The P 210 was tailless, the P 211.01-01 was swept wings and conventional tail, the P 211.01-02 was constant chord wings but a twin tail, then the P 211.02 was constant chord wings and a conventional tail fin. The B&V Volksjager project seems to have got simpler and simpler from the radical layout P 210 to the very straightforward P 211.02.

NB. Looking back at the hard copy original P 211 brochure of September 29, 1944, the design presented is the P 211.01-02, not the P 211.02. Unusually there are no drawings in the brochure itself but the text makes reference to the P 211.01-02. Furthermore, looking at the original Blohm & Voss project list, there is no mention of a P 211.02, only a P 211.01-01 and P 211.01-02. The drawing I have of the P 211.01-02 (from a third source - i.e. not from the brochure or the project list) shows the constant chord wing, twin tail arrangement. Another drawing from the same source is labelled P 211.00-10.1 and shows what appears to be the constant chord wing, single fin tail arrangement. I say 'appears to be' because it is a sectional side view only and the upper part of the tail fin is not pictured.
The conclusion I am tempted to draw from all this is that there was no P 211.02, and that what's commonly referred to as the P 211.02 is in fact the P 211.01-02. Still no evidence of a second P 210 however, although investigations are ongoing.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 12:14:09 am by newsdeskdan »
“This modular concept we have called MUSTARD (Multi Unit Space Transport and Recovery Device), and has been the subject of considerable detailed work.” Tom Smith, BAC Preston

Offline sienar

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Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich
« Reply #119 on: December 07, 2017, 07:24:06 pm »
I have to say your are doing an excellent job with the past few books you've released.  Good content with proper context, unlike most of the late war books on the market. Reproductions of original plans is much appreciated as well.

Also is that a bit of a 309 sideview on the intro page on the border of drawings? Any plans on covering the wartime piston projects?