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Author Topic: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet  (Read 33066 times)

Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2017, 12:15:14 pm »
So I guess France will be building their own plane again?   ;)
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2017, 12:57:27 pm »
So I guess France will be building their own plane again?   ;)

There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Dassault have moved on from the EFA position of "give us most of the money and leadership whilst we shaft your own country's industry"

Of course with the big assumption that a future fighter will be LO, Dassault has very limited experience in that field so it seems difficult for them to lead...

And of course Airbus owns Dassault...

Offline DrRansom

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2017, 01:00:36 pm »
Does Europe have billions of dollars to resurrect their moribund military aircraft industry? Nooooo.


Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2017, 01:04:22 pm »
Does Europe have billions of dollars to resurrect their moribund military aircraft industry? Nooooo.

If Japan, SK, and even Turkey can pursue a 5th gen aircraft I don't see why Europe couldn't.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Trident

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2017, 01:16:12 pm »
Of course with the big assumption that a future fighter will be LO, Dassault has very limited experience in that field so it seems difficult for them to lead...

Given that Rafale did well for a non-US design of its vintage in this regard, I would not be so sure about that. They may have kept their work closer to their chest than others, but I don't think absence of evidence qualifies as evidence of absence here - and nEUROn looks like a rather competent design in terms of LO to me.

And of course Airbus owns Dassault...

Not anymore.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2017, 02:05:21 pm »
There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Dassault have moved on from the EFA position of "give us most of the money and leadership whilst we shaft your own country's industry"
I thought it was the US position from the JSF...

Of course with the big assumption that a future fighter will be LO, Dassault has very limited experience in that field so it seems difficult for them to lead...
Barracuda and Taranis are less limited ?
Fortunately, when the British-French FCAS/SCAF will fly, France and UK will be as limited as each other...
 
And of course Airbus owns Dassault...
At the end, maybe... But for the control of costs, not necessarily*

*In 2010, the French National Audit Office said that the Rafale program has increased by 16.5% since the beginning
In 2011, the British National Audit Office said that the EF program has increased by 75% since the beginning

Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2017, 02:58:45 pm »
There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Dassault have moved on from the EFA position of "give us most of the money and leadership whilst we shaft your own country's industry"
I thought it was the US position from the JSF...

The JSF was always a US program.  Not the same as the Rafale/Eurofighter situation in any way, shape, or form.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2017, 04:41:45 pm »
There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Dassault have moved on from the EFA position of "give us most of the money and leadership whilst we shaft your own country's industry"
I thought it was the US position from the JSF...

The JSF was always a US program.  Not the same as the Rafale/Eurofighter situation in any way, shape, or form.
Yes, an all US program (apart from maybe a, not US, and, of course, canceled, European RR engine...), incidentally to destroy the European Aircraft Industry, too... And maybe it will completely success... If it demonstrates definitively efficiency, reliability and low operating costs.
See you in 30 years.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 05:17:26 pm by Deltafan »

Offline Sundog

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2017, 04:52:12 pm »
Yes, a US program, incidentally to destroy the European Aircraft Industry, too... And maybe it will completely success...

It was a program developed to meet the needs of all the major military services in the U.S. It was not developed to destroy the European aircraft industry as they've never required any help from the U.S. in that regard.  Please keep the conspiracy theories elsewhere.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2017, 05:14:36 pm »
It's less a conspiracy than a result. Each time that an European land buys a F-35, it's less money for the research and development in European Aircraft Industry. And there are now in West-Europa only three fighter aircraft builders. If the production lines are closing... The future will be difficult, including to develop even a single new plane...

But I never said that it's only the fault of US.


« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 05:54:04 pm by Deltafan »

Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2017, 05:17:20 pm »
There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Dassault have moved on from the EFA position of "give us most of the money and leadership whilst we shaft your own country's industry"
I thought it was the US position from the JSF...

The JSF was always a US program.  Not the same as the Rafale/Eurofighter situation in any way, shape, or form.
Yes, an all US program (apart from maybe a, not US, and, of course, canceled, European RR engine...), incidentally to destroy the European Aircraft Industry, too... And maybe it will completely success... If it demonstrates definitively efficiency, reliability and low operating costs.
See you in 30 years.
Rendez-vous dans 30 ans

There was no "cancelled RR engine".  The F136 was GE.  And it was meant as a replacement for the F-16, F/A-18 and Harrier, not to "destroy the European Aircraft Industry".  If Europe didn't want the F-35 all they had to do was build their own.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2017, 05:23:04 pm »
There was no "cancelled RR engine".  The F136 was GE.  And it was meant as a replacement for the F-16, F/A-18 and Harrier, not to "destroy the European Aircraft Industry".
60% GE, 40% RR. Thanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric/Rolls-Royce_F136

If Europe didn't want the F-35 all they had to do was build their own.
I agree. It's why I said that it was more a result than a conspiracy and that it's not only the fault of US.

Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2017, 05:49:44 pm »
The business plan from the outset was to (1) replace every non-US F-16 and F/A-18 and (2) involve the UK and Italy, who didn't have F-16s or F/A-18s but were EF partners. It wasn't a conspiracy, but an overt project.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2017, 07:10:01 pm »
Why this use of the word "conspiracy" ?

On the civilian market, Boeing would be happy to destroy Airbus (and then to buy this competitor) and Airbus would be happy to destroy Boeing (and then to buy this competitor too).

It's market, it's business, it's overt and not conspiracy, but the result would be the same : the end of one for the benefit of the other.

If in 30 years there is no more European own Combat Aircraft Industry, this result will be a business victory for LM and US ("if"... I insist, a lot). No more no less.


« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 07:50:09 pm by Deltafan »

Offline Hood

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2017, 02:38:56 am »
The real issue here is confusion on what is actually wanted. First its a Tornado replacement (as shown in the Airbus video) but the F-35 has already taken that role. Then the development timeline has been abdicated to 25 years based off experience with the Eurofighter (Lt Gen Muellner openly said that). So then a Typhoon/Rafale replacement tag is raised to fit the ballpark 25 years when a design might be ready.

As has been pointed out, Japan, South Korea and Turkey are progressing with "5th generation" (though we can only guess how much of that is cosmetic F-35 styling rather than full F-35-esque capability) so its not beyond the realms of possibility that Dassault and Airbus couldn't deliver an equivalent within 10 years if the political will and money was there.

The frustration is that Europe has missed the boat. If the Tornado operators had been serious about a replacement work should have begun at least a decade ago. Making an F-35 clone makes no sense as most potential customers will already have F-35s and get a good 40-50 years out of them (2060s) and it does nothing to push European industry further. Adding a second engine and seat just adds complexity and cost and by 2045 there might be an export PCA to compete against. Dassault with Neuron has the much better Tornado replacement within sight and surely that project would do more for Dassault and Airbus and the European industry in general. Who knows what a Eurofighter replacement should be in 2045? I don't think Airbus knows at present but now is the time to lay the groundwork, but it can't be allowed to take 25 years to get it in service.

Exports are vital but neither the Rafale or Eurofighter have been as successful as their predecessors (Jaguar, any Mirage series). The fighter market is saturated and that will only continue in the future, especially as the BRIC nation low-price competitors emerge. But a UCAV could well be more saleable to nations wanting high-end capabilities.

As a final tongue-in-cheek comment, all the Dassault versus Airbus chatter ignores one thing. Without BAe there would have been no Eurofighter.