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Author Topic: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet  (Read 26417 times)

Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #270 on: November 16, 2018, 04:10:37 am »
This drama sounds familiar. . .
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.


Offline flateric

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stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Online TomcatViP

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #273 on: November 16, 2018, 05:41:50 am »
Quote
“France has a specific policy about deterrence,” Maj. Gen. Jean-Pascal Breton, the French lead for the Future Combat Air System, told attendees at the International Fighter industry conference in Berlin. “That’s why we don’t want any countries to dictate to us what to do.”


Sourced from here: https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/11/15/french-officials-stake-out-sovereign-bits-in-franco-german-warplane-bid/  as linked by Flateric
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 09:19:44 am by Jemiba »

Offline Hood

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #274 on: November 16, 2018, 06:19:26 am »
Brig. Gen. Gerald Funke seems to hit the nail on the head:
Quote
“Don’t trust anyone who says they can make predictions about the characteristics of an air system in 2040,” Funke said at the International Fighter industry conference on Wednesday. That attitude means Germany is expected to wait as long as possible before closing the design phase of the envisioned weapon and moving toward production.
“We need [a] sensible starting point that’s worth spending money on,” Funke told Defense News on the sidelines of the conference. “The time pressure is not as acute as industry presents it.”

Until now it seems (like with Tempest) the industry is pushing European governments to spend money for the next 20 years on the promises of some rather vague terminology and technology in the hopes of keeping their factories open past 2025. I've yet to see the European Air Staffs actually say what they want. At least the French are staking out what they need.

Not surprising to see Spain jumping on the bandwagon, their aerospace industry is Airbus, so its natural they want a slice of the pie to secure jobs down at Illescas.

Offline galgot

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #275 on: November 16, 2018, 07:48:55 am »
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"“We need [a] sensible starting point that’s worth spending money on,” Funke told Defense News on the sidelines of the conference. “The time pressure is not as acute as industry presents it.”

Of course , what credible operational experience do they have, if they don't even bother maintaining their Eurofighter fleet, how could they even know what they really need ?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 08:14:45 am by galgot »

Online TomcatViP

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #276 on: November 16, 2018, 02:46:27 pm »
I am however baffled by the 100B$ (or was it €?) mentioned by Airbus for the program. Given the past resounding failures and the single digit cost of many Kratos design, one company at the forefront man-machine teaming UAS*.

There was obviously many interesting and promising things in this interview but still it sounded like intentions of the past. The gap b/w 1980's design philosophy that  still were at the base of what is  promised for 2040 left me quite dubious. And then, not that this is particularly abnormal with an airbus manager but you take a look at the CV of the man and you see a tremendous career built on a succession of industrial failure. Not my intention to be that hard but still the full gamut of keywords describing the complete range of polymorphic** technological promises tasted like the simplicity of a... deja vu.


I will paste the link here since it should appear for most of us on the previous page of this thread (from Flateric):
https://world.eurofighter.com/articles/the-road-to-fcas


Quote
From 2040 onwards we will face a massively increased threat level for air assets and these will require new technologies to address them. Even today we see the proliferation of threat systems with the advent of near and potential peer opponents***. It’s therefore vital to have a roadmap for capabilities and the technologies that leverage these.

The great thing with roadmaps and navigation chart is that you have to have as many waypoints as needed to be accurate, on target, on time and within your budget...



*see Kratos dev cost:
Quote
Kratos has invested about $70-75 million in its tactical drone development programmes, with Hebert saying the vast majority of this sum has been allocated to the Valkyrie. A significant part of the investment has included developing autonomous flight controls, which allow a single operator, on the ground or in another aircraft – such as the pilot of a Lockheed Martin F-35 – to manage the missions of several UAVs at once, says Fendley.
source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/kratos-more-than-doubles-tactical-uav-development-pr-453659/   [/i]

**Shouldn't I write OMNImorphic given the context?

*** In the context of a tri-national project for a specific EU defense, a near peer sounds like an awkward term given that it is generally used in the context of US Vs China or Russia where the mass effects are of another magnitude...   
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 04:46:10 pm by TomcatViP »

Offline kaiserd

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #277 on: November 17, 2018, 01:55:32 am »
To follow Tomcat’s comments above it would only be fair to point out that a lot of the same points could equally validly be made about the UK and US efforts and thinking about next generation combat aircraft.

The military are still trying to work out exactly what they need and want, the politicians don’t know what they are willing or able to pay from a capability and keeping factories open perspective (with Brexit an extra complication) and industry players scrambling around trying to stay relevant, credible and in-the-game.

In this context taking some extra time before launching the next massively expensive project is not a bad idea.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #278 on: November 20, 2018, 07:04:18 pm »
Article from French weekly La Tribune, with the title: The future European combat aircraft will take off industrially in January 2019

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/le-futur-avion-de-combat-europeen-va-decoller-industriellement-en-janvier-2019-798120.html

Quote
France and Germany have agreed to launch the sixth generation fighter program.
(…)
The French General Directorate of Armaments (DGA) will be the contracting agency for the three contracts
(…)
This agreement was validated Monday in Brussels by the two ministers - Florence Parly and Ursula von der Leyen.
(…)
In this context, the two countries will launch in January (...) a contract of architecture and design of SCAF for a period of two years under a joint leadership Dassault Aviation and Airbus.
Thales will also be on the photo … Dassault Aviation and Airbus will have to make room for the French electronics specialist, who is considered as the European champion of connectivity and system.
In addition, France and Germany have also agreed to sign two contracts for the development of two demonstrators at the Paris Air Show (17-23.06.19) : one on the aircraft, under the leadership of Dassault Aviation, with Airbus as subcontractor, the other on the engine under Safran leadership with the German engine manufacturer MTU as subcontractor. The demonstrator will validate the technological choices in order to have a sixth generation aircraft that will fly in 2035.
(...)
Paris and Berlin will also have to launch studies on sensors, radar and electronic warfare ...
(…)
Spain, which has asked to be an observer, will join the SCAF program once it will be stabilized. By the end of the year, the Spanish will join the high-level agreement (HL Coord), which was signed between France and Germany in April in Berlin. Finally, Madrid is expected to sign a letter of intent in the first quarter to participate in the SCAF program.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 04:09:23 am by Deltafan »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #279 on: November 30, 2018, 01:20:15 pm »
Well, a French article about : How does the French Air Force imagine its future "system" of combat ?

http://www.opex360.com/2018/11/30/comment-larmee-de-lair-imagine-son-futur-systeme-de-combat/

Posted only for the drawing (not necessarily representative, in particular with no air intake) of the "SCAF" :
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 01:24:37 pm by Deltafan »