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Author Topic: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet  (Read 33065 times)

Offline Deltafan

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France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« on: July 14, 2017, 06:35:26 am »
Hi,

As this project (for the replacement of the French Rafale and the German Eurofighter) is different of the Airbus project to replace the German Tornado and the Spanish F-18, I open a new topic :)

Well, as the time to replace Rafale and EF is not for tomorrow, this topic may last for décades  ;D

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-germany-defence/france-and-germany-to-develop-new-european-fighter-jet-idUSKBN19Y1FJ

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,26320.180.html



Alas, it seems that we must maybe wait for mid-2018 to have more official content. But maybe we'll have some things before (hopefully).

I red in the french media available on the web that neither Dassault nor Airbus wanted to make comments about the Merkel-Macron statements.

At least we can compare the German-Spanish Airbus project and an old representation of a stealth-ised Rafale :

 
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 10:52:37 am by flateric »

Offline muttbutt

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2017, 07:14:28 am »
Oh this is a completely separate project?...I didn't realise, thanks mate for clearing it up  B)

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2017, 08:18:55 am »
Oh this is a completely separate project?...
As far as we can know now :)

The replacement for the French Rafale and the German Eurofighter is foreseen much later than the Airbus replacement of the German Tornado and the Spanish F-18. 

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2017, 11:57:44 am »
interestingly, it appears to have completely surprised Dassault, who are now worried that Germany will pump more funds into the project and therefore be able to dictate things like workshare.

Offline muttbutt

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2017, 03:06:32 pm »
Quote
BAE says unfazed by Franco-German fighter project, sees future role


The head of military aviation at UK defence contractor BAE Systems said on Friday (14 July) he did not feel threatened by Franco-German plans to develop a new European fighter and predicted Britain would end up participating in some way.

France and Germany unveiled plans on Thursday for a new European fighter to tighten defence and security cooperation. The two countries currently compete for sales, with Germany and Britain both part of the Eurofighter consortium.
Rest at the link
http://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/bae-says-unfazed-by-franco-german-fighter-project-sees-future-role/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1500049513

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2017, 07:08:33 pm »
interestingly, it appears to have completely surprised Dassault, who are now worried that Germany will pump more funds into the project and therefore be able to dictate things like workshare.
Dassault made no comment. Or you have a source to share with us.

Dassault knows since a long time that France has no more enough money to build alone its next fighter. I think that they'll try to get the Project Management like for the Neuron Stealth UCAV demonstrator (France, Sweden, Italy, Spain, Swiss and Greece). Officially, they already said (last year) that for an european cooperation they don't want a system like for the Eurofighter or the A-400 M.

But, Germany has today much more money than France. And if this economic situation stays the same in future, probably the part of Germany will be bigger than Dassault could expect... Except if Germany agrees to let the Project Management to France.

For the workshare, Dassault had, in the past, already shared work to other french companies  and even abroad (like to its belgian subsidiary SABCA). They shared the work for the Neuron too. I don't think that it could be a problem in 2040. The problem will be the Project Management...       

« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 03:27:46 am by Deltafan »

Offline martinbayer

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2017, 10:06:20 pm »
interestingly, it appears to have completely surprised Dassault, who are now worried that Germany will pump more funds into the project and therefore be able to dictate things like workshare.
Dassault made no comment. Or you have a source to share with us.

Dassault knows since a long time that France has no more enough money to build alone its next fighter. I think that they'll try to get the "maîtrise d'œuvre" (I don't know the good word in English  : subject mastery ?) like for the Neuron Stealth UCAV demonstrator (France, Sweden, Italy, Spain, Swiss and Greece). Officially, they already said (last year) that for an european cooperation they don't want a system like for the Eurofighter or the A-400 M.

But, Germany has today much more money than France. And if this economic situation stay the same in future, probably the part of Germany will be bigger than Dassault could expect... Except if Germany agree to let the "subject mastery" to France.

For the workshare, Dassault had, in the past, already shared work to other french companies  and even abroad (like to its belgian subsidiary SABCA). I don't think that it could be a problem in 2040. The problem will be the "subject mastery"...         

Maîtrise d'œuvre = Project management.

Which brings to mind the tired old joke:

"Q: What do a project manager and a butterfly have in common?

A: A butterfly doesn't fly butter either..."

Martin
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 10:32:15 pm by martinbayer »
Would be marching to the beat of his own drum, if he didn't detest marching to any drumbeat at all so much.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2017, 02:34:25 am »
Maîtrise d'œuvre = Project management.
Thanks :)

I edited my post.

Offline Hood

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2017, 03:33:52 am »
A little more political detail.
Not sure how much of this just fluffy politco talk since Airbus and Eurocopter etc. have pretty much made a joint French-German aerospace industry anyway, Dassault being the obvious independent outsider.

Two thoughts come to mind; is France attempting to dissuade German from buying US and how long will it take before the politicians start talking about merging Dassault with Airbus.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/franco-german-fighter-proposal-gains-momentum-439509/

Offline Flyaway

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2017, 11:58:40 am »
A little more political detail.
Not sure how much of this just fluffy politco talk since Airbus and Eurocopter etc. have pretty much made a joint French-German aerospace industry anyway, Dassault being the obvious independent outsider.

Two thoughts come to mind; is France attempting to dissuade German from buying US and how long will it take before the politicians start talking about merging Dassault with Airbus.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/franco-german-fighter-proposal-gains-momentum-439509/

From that article it sounds like BAE have got their fingers in a lot of different fighter projects, as thanks to brexit we can't rely on getting in on any European fighter project.

Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2017, 02:41:36 am »
"Project" seems a strong description for this sort of thing given that there seems to be no money or engineering effort associated with it.

What we're seeing in these various stories is the initial international manoeuvring similar to that for Eurofighter. Someone on the political side has noted that it might be a good idea to keep the many thousands of high tech aircraft design and manufacture jobs in their country. Announcements of joint studies are easy and cost nothing. Look whether there are any contracts and what their value is.

Fundamentally, neither Germany nor France have €10bn+ sitting around to spend on this sort of thing. France is even cutting its military spending.

Time will tell who the serious players are (e.g. Japan seems to have spent a few hundred mn $ already on ATD-X)

Offline Airplane

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2017, 06:25:45 pm »
"Project" seems a strong description for this sort of thing given that there seems to be no money or engineering effort associated with it.

What we're seeing in these various stories is the initial international manoeuvring similar to that for Eurofighter. Someone on the political side has noted that it might be a good idea to keep the many thousands of high tech aircraft design and manufacture jobs in their country. Announcements of joint studies are easy and cost nothing. Look whether there are any contracts and what their value is.

Fundamentally, neither Germany nor France have €10bn+ sitting around to spend on this sort of thing. France is even cutting its military spending.

Time will tell who the serious players are (e.g. Japan seems to have spent a few hundred mn $ already on ATD-X)

I work a little bit with Japanese engineers and its a matter of pride what they are doing. They WILL get something in the air that is closer to production than the demonstrator out or stubborn pride by itself. If it goes to production.... That's another question entirely.

Europe. Is harder to gauge. Typhoon is starting to become antiquated but their only real foe is Russia and their PAC FA doesn't look like it will roll off the line in real numbers. Plus they live under our golden umbrella. For the sake of their economy, they may just roll out a drone just to keep their engineers working and current.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 08:22:20 am by Jemiba »
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Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2017, 01:29:52 am »
Typhoon is becoming antiquated?

Remember, it has a further 20+ years in service as of now, and likely more. It might be easy to dismiss this Franco-German project (actually much of Europe is incorporated in that "German" part) as purely political, but that would be to misunderstand how enthusiastic Europe is to be  united.

My opinion is that Europe will produce a successor to Typhoon and Rafale as it will also produce a UCAV, and the only question is how much of that Britain contributes to.

I would rather see the UK join with Japan on a future fighter, but has either country got the balls not to buy American?

Offline muttbutt

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2017, 11:49:05 am »
Typhoon is becoming antiquated?

Remember, it has a further 20+ years in service as of now, and likely more. It might be easy to dismiss this Franco-German project (actually much of Europe is incorporated in that "German" part) as purely political, but that would be to misunderstand how enthusiastic Europe is to be  united.

My opinion is that Europe will produce a successor to Typhoon and Rafale as it will also produce a UCAV, and the only question is how much of that Britain contributes to.

I would rather see the UK join with Japan on a future fighter, but has either country got the balls not to buy American?
As I said over on the key forums, I'm cautiously optimistic. There seems to be a genuine effort to work together on these things. What with the French letting the Germans take the lead on the UAV and the new MBT.
It seems like the Germans will give the French the nod to lead the fighter project.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2017, 12:41:07 pm »
Indeed, it is more a question of how advanced it will be. As has been said, are they looking for a genuine future fighter or just a European stealth jet.

Offline Airplane

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2017, 07:32:13 am »
Typhoon is becoming antiquated?

Remember, it has a further 20+ years in service as of now, and likely more. It might be easy to dismiss this Franco-German project (actually much of Europe is incorporated in that "German" part) as purely political, but that would be to misunderstand how enthusiastic Europe is to be  united.

My opinion is that Europe will produce a successor to Typhoon and Rafale as it will also produce a UCAV, and the only question is how much of that Britain contributes to.

I would rather see the UK join with Japan on a future fighter, but has either country got the balls not to buy American?

Yes. Antiquated. I know exactly that I said and what  it infers.

Typhoon is flying radar target. It may have some slick moves at airshows, but it's fucked to use them in A2A like a lot of slick airshow maneuvers. Totally useless.

With Raptor and -35 and Pak Fa and the Chinese stuff, Typhoon is antiquated by comparison. In 13 years when PCA is allegedly going to be fielded, Typhoon will really be antiquated. I remember when Typhoon was a sketch on a napkin (figuratively). It's from a soon to be by-gone era of A2A combat. Granted the overwhelming majority of Russian equipment that Typhoon *would* see in combat is also antiquated, by today's measuring stick, and the measuring stick of what will be in 10 years, Typhoon is old.

Granted (again) there are no other stealth jets in service outside the US, but as soon as the Russians and Chinese are fielded, Typhoon is old school, baby. As is the French delta wing and the Gripen.

Europe is lagging behind the world in developing a LO aerial combat warplane. But hey, they're buying the -35 to fill that role. Hence, they will likely just work on a A2G drone with missilier capability in order to keep their engineers current and the socialist economy steaming ahead.





« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 07:35:00 am by Airplane »
"The test of success is not what you do when your on top. Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.”
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Offline galgot

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2017, 08:16:38 am »
While I agree for the most , the "socialist economy" part was funny ...
Lol, if we have a socialism here, what do you have in the US ? Feudalism ?

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2017, 10:20:59 am »
And we have to assume that all of the teen series fighters are even more antiquated, with the measuring stick apparently  being stealth only?

PCA in 13 years eh? Funny how that programme wont be effected by any form of delay and yet all others inevitably deliver years late - whether that's Typhoon, F35, or PAK-FA.

Anyway, whilst I'm glad the Typhoon gets you so excited, I think the general consensus is that although the F35 may replace things like the German Tornado or RAF T1 Typhoon, the French will replace their Rafale with a fighter (which wont be American) and the Germans likewise their Typhoon's.

Offline Airplane

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2017, 06:55:46 pm »
And we have to assume that all of the teen series fighters are even more antiquated, with the measuring stick apparently  being stealth only?

PCA in 13 years eh? Funny how that programme wont be effected by any form of delay and yet all others inevitably deliver years late - whether that's Typhoon, F35, or PAK-FA.

Anyway, whilst I'm glad the Typhoon gets you so excited, I think the general consensus is that although the F35 may replace things like the German Tornado or RAF T1 Typhoon, the French will replace their Rafale with a fighter (which wont be American) and the Germans likewise their Typhoon's.

Absolutely the teens are antiquated. What do you a call a flying radar reflector that cruises subsonically (doesn't even have speed to make up a little for not being LO) and laden with external fuel tanks? External weapons? Totally unequivocally reliant on jammer aircraft to reach a target? Even my illustrious Tomcat 21 if it had been built would be antiquated by today's standards. Yes, today's AAMs make the teens and the Europeans more effective than when they were fielded, but you know what? If the Piper I fly had 120s/meteors/9xs and was data linked to something with radar or had a good ir suite, it would be deadly as well.

Therein lies the heart of the -35. Awesome SA, awesome missiles, very low signatures, and adequate kinematics to preposition for missile release.

Honestly the only reason these planes are still relevant is because of the proliferation of other antiquated Russian equipment still flying. That's for A2A. For a2g versus a modern foes weapons,  they are dead meat. Honestly you could upgrade what's left of the flying Phantoms with aesa, slammers, 9xs and they could go toe to toe with today's teens and Europeans. I was there in the 80s when Phantoms were going against eagles and cats and the outcome was skewed to the teens, but it was still pilot versus pilot.

The page has turned. The last chapter has been written. Its a new ballgame. We are just waiting for all the new players to take to the field.

"The test of success is not what you do when your on top. Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.”
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Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2017, 12:04:15 am »
Hmmm, so we are back to a slightly grumpy assertion that if it's not the F35 then it's not worth flying.

Did you know that the French defence hierarchy believe the Rafale to be good enough to stay in service until 2050? They have faith in their technology too, although I'm not sure it warrants that level of hubris either.

Offline FighterJock

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2017, 08:53:46 am »
The Rafael to keep flying until 2050?  For comparison the Typhoon's out of service date is projected to be around 2040 (or so I have read online).

Offline _Del_

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2017, 12:51:59 pm »
Quote
Honestly the only reason these planes are still relevant is because of the proliferation of other antiquated Russian equipment still flying. 

So the only reason they are relevant is that nearly every other peer or near-peer is flying things on that level or worse...   Sounds pretty relevant then...

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2017, 01:50:36 pm »
I was surprised, no, gobsmacked by the idea that they could see no need to work on a replacement yet. It came from two separate sources and was tied to the concept that Dassault were quite happy to slowly upgrade the Rafale, work on exports (which is perhaps why this notion of the Rafale being relevant for decades is being promoted by the MOD and Dassault) and use FCAS as a way to develop new technology.



Offline Foo Fighter

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2017, 02:14:55 am »
Surely the BAE P 125 could be updated, or something like it.  There is a huge amount of talent in the UK and Europe so why NOT contribute to break the cartel of the US companies with their political clout.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2017, 02:51:38 am »
I think that this thread is dealing with whether or not the French can overcome the idea of Rafale being obsolescent in a couple of decades, and if they can swallow that idea, whether then will allow others to contribute to a successor.

My personal feeling is that BAE in it's many guises has been far more active in terms of technological development than Dassault or Airbus (in the fast jet/UCAV field at least) and this is why BAE is partnering with other countries to develop new aircraft and Dassault is trying to flog the Rafale.

Offline Foo Fighter

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2017, 06:39:17 am »
Perhaps we would be better off working with the Japanese companies, then selling to the EU/NATO.  If they can their collective posteriors and ego's to accept it is that or buy US equipment.

Offline Flyaway

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2017, 09:21:31 am »
Franco-German defence pact does not threaten UCAV initiative: Dassault chief

Quote
The pact between France and Germany to develop a next-generation fighter does not threaten the Franco-British unmanned combat air vehicle project on which Dassault and BAE Systems are partnered, the French company’s chief executive insists.

Quote
In fact, Éric Trappier believes all three countries may combine their efforts into an initiative to develop a successor to the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, despite concerns that Brexit could leave the UK isolated from future pan-European defence programmes.

"We are still committed to the UCAV with BAE," says Trappier. "At the moment we have two very distinct roadmaps. I don’t know if they will be merged at some point."

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/franco-german-defence-pact-does-not-threaten-ucav-in-439733/

Offline dark sidius

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2017, 02:06:31 pm »
I don't know where they will find the budget for 2 projects.

Offline Triton

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2017, 03:41:32 pm »
"Airbus, Dassault vie for leadership of Franco-German fighter"
Tim Hepher

November 3, 2017

Source:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-germany-defence/airbus-dassault-vie-for-leadership-of-franco-german-fighter-idUSKBN1D31W0

Quote
PARIS (Reuters) - With the ink barely dry on a deal between France and Germany to develop a new combat jet, Airbus and Dassault are squaring up for leadership of a project that could reshape Europe’s fragmented fighter industry.

French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel unveiled the plans at a summit in July, burying past defense industry rivalries as part of efforts to tighten co-operation as Britain withdraws from the European Union.

The new combat system could involve a mixture of manned and unmanned aircraft and would eventually replace the Rafale and Eurofighter, rival jets that compete fiercely for global sales, as well as the older Panavia Tornado.

That sets the tone for co-operation between Airbus, which represents Germany and Spain in the Eurofighter consortium, and Dassault Aviation, the manufacturer of France’s Rafale.

But there has been little formal discussion yet over the shape of the project, let alone who would take the lead in development, according to industry and defense officials.

Airbus, whose mostly Germany-based defense arm makes up about a quarter of its sales, laid claim to the leading role in an op-ed article published on Friday.

“On the assumption that the necessary political will is in place, Airbus is offering to drive cooperation with its European partners and to shape this aspect of our common European future,” Dirk Hoke, chief executive of Airbus Defense & Space, wrote in Germany-based defense newsletter Griephan Briefe.

He described his company as “the lead...for a project of this nature.”

Dassault has itself offered to be the “architect” of the Franco-German project and Chief Executive Eric Trappier told Reuters recently that it would be the natural leader due to its experience in building an all-French fighter planeFrench President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel unveiled the plans at a summit in July, burying past defense industry rivalries as part of efforts to tighten co-operation as Britain withdraws from the European Union.

The new combat system could involve a mixture of manned and unmanned aircraft and would eventually replace the Rafale and Eurofighter, rival jets that compete fiercely for global sales, as well as the older Panavia Tornado.

That sets the tone for co-operation between Airbus, which represents Germany and Spain in the Eurofighter consortium, and Dassault Aviation, the manufacturer of France’s Rafale.

But there has been little formal discussion yet over the shape of the project, let alone who would take the lead in development, according to industry and defense officials.

Airbus, whose mostly Germany-based defense arm makes up about a quarter of its sales, laid claim to the leading role in an op-ed article published on Friday.

“On the assumption that the necessary political will is in place, Airbus is offering to drive cooperation with its European partners and to shape this aspect of our common European future,” Dirk Hoke, chief executive of Airbus Defense & Space, wrote in Germany-based defense newsletter Griephan Briefe.

He described his company as “the lead...for a project of this nature.”

Dassault has itself offered to be the “architect” of the Franco-German project and Chief Executive Eric Trappier told Reuters recently that it would be the natural leader due to its experience in building an all-French fighter plane.

Airbus’s call also appeared aimed at speeding up the project as Germany looks to U.S. rivals to meet interim fighter gaps.

Germany earlier this year asked Washington for a briefing on the Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) F-35 fighter as it gears up to replace its current fleet of fighter jets from 2025. [nL1N1K206B] It has also asked for data on Boeing’s F/A-18E/F.

Hoke said buying American could weaken the European defense industry and make it ever-more reliant on U.S. “black box” technology that is not shared with foreign operators, while injecting uncertainty into Franco-German plans for a new jet.

“An interim solution for the replacement of old fleets already appears probable. If important decisions are delayed, a stopgap of this type could take on a dimension that would cast doubt on the economic efficiency of the entire project,” he said.

France and Germany said in July they aim to come up with a roadmap by mid-2018 for jointly leading development of the new aircraft to replace their existing fleets of rival warplanes.

Dassault Aviation appears to have been caught by surprise by July’s announcement, which cut across its existing partnership with BAE Systems to build a demonstrator for an unmanned combat vehicle, called Future Combat Air System (FCAS).

Defense analysts say the French company is in a strong position to be in the driving seat from a technological point of view, having made it plain it regards BAE as its technological peer.

But at least for now, such considerations are likely to take a backseat to how the project will be funded amid tight defense budgets, an industry source said.

“It is quite normal for industrialists to claim leadership, but it is too early to talk about that,” he added.

Offline Trident

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2017, 12:09:23 pm »
I would guess there is virtually no fighter experience on the French side of Airbus? Not that there needs to be, Dassault is after all an admirable agent to have in the game (to the extent that I would agree they should take the lead in overall concept design)!

Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2017, 12:15:14 pm »
So I guess France will be building their own plane again?   ;)
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2017, 12:57:27 pm »
So I guess France will be building their own plane again?   ;)

There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Dassault have moved on from the EFA position of "give us most of the money and leadership whilst we shaft your own country's industry"

Of course with the big assumption that a future fighter will be LO, Dassault has very limited experience in that field so it seems difficult for them to lead...

And of course Airbus owns Dassault...

Offline DrRansom

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2017, 01:00:36 pm »
Does Europe have billions of dollars to resurrect their moribund military aircraft industry? Nooooo.


Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2017, 01:04:22 pm »
Does Europe have billions of dollars to resurrect their moribund military aircraft industry? Nooooo.

If Japan, SK, and even Turkey can pursue a 5th gen aircraft I don't see why Europe couldn't.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Trident

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2017, 01:16:12 pm »
Of course with the big assumption that a future fighter will be LO, Dassault has very limited experience in that field so it seems difficult for them to lead...

Given that Rafale did well for a non-US design of its vintage in this regard, I would not be so sure about that. They may have kept their work closer to their chest than others, but I don't think absence of evidence qualifies as evidence of absence here - and nEUROn looks like a rather competent design in terms of LO to me.

And of course Airbus owns Dassault...

Not anymore.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2017, 02:05:21 pm »
There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Dassault have moved on from the EFA position of "give us most of the money and leadership whilst we shaft your own country's industry"
I thought it was the US position from the JSF...

Of course with the big assumption that a future fighter will be LO, Dassault has very limited experience in that field so it seems difficult for them to lead...
Barracuda and Taranis are less limited ?
Fortunately, when the British-French FCAS/SCAF will fly, France and UK will be as limited as each other...
 
And of course Airbus owns Dassault...
At the end, maybe... But for the control of costs, not necessarily*

*In 2010, the French National Audit Office said that the Rafale program has increased by 16.5% since the beginning
In 2011, the British National Audit Office said that the EF program has increased by 75% since the beginning

Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2017, 02:58:45 pm »
There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Dassault have moved on from the EFA position of "give us most of the money and leadership whilst we shaft your own country's industry"
I thought it was the US position from the JSF...

The JSF was always a US program.  Not the same as the Rafale/Eurofighter situation in any way, shape, or form.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2017, 04:41:45 pm »
There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Dassault have moved on from the EFA position of "give us most of the money and leadership whilst we shaft your own country's industry"
I thought it was the US position from the JSF...

The JSF was always a US program.  Not the same as the Rafale/Eurofighter situation in any way, shape, or form.
Yes, an all US program (apart from maybe a, not US, and, of course, canceled, European RR engine...), incidentally to destroy the European Aircraft Industry, too... And maybe it will completely success... If it demonstrates definitively efficiency, reliability and low operating costs.
See you in 30 years.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 05:17:26 pm by Deltafan »

Offline Sundog

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2017, 04:52:12 pm »
Yes, a US program, incidentally to destroy the European Aircraft Industry, too... And maybe it will completely success...

It was a program developed to meet the needs of all the major military services in the U.S. It was not developed to destroy the European aircraft industry as they've never required any help from the U.S. in that regard.  Please keep the conspiracy theories elsewhere.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2017, 05:14:36 pm »
It's less a conspiracy than a result. Each time that an European land buys a F-35, it's less money for the research and development in European Aircraft Industry. And there are now in West-Europa only three fighter aircraft builders. If the production lines are closing... The future will be difficult, including to develop even a single new plane...

But I never said that it's only the fault of US.


« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 05:54:04 pm by Deltafan »

Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2017, 05:17:20 pm »
There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Dassault have moved on from the EFA position of "give us most of the money and leadership whilst we shaft your own country's industry"
I thought it was the US position from the JSF...

The JSF was always a US program.  Not the same as the Rafale/Eurofighter situation in any way, shape, or form.
Yes, an all US program (apart from maybe a, not US, and, of course, canceled, European RR engine...), incidentally to destroy the European Aircraft Industry, too... And maybe it will completely success... If it demonstrates definitively efficiency, reliability and low operating costs.
See you in 30 years.
Rendez-vous dans 30 ans

There was no "cancelled RR engine".  The F136 was GE.  And it was meant as a replacement for the F-16, F/A-18 and Harrier, not to "destroy the European Aircraft Industry".  If Europe didn't want the F-35 all they had to do was build their own.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2017, 05:23:04 pm »
There was no "cancelled RR engine".  The F136 was GE.  And it was meant as a replacement for the F-16, F/A-18 and Harrier, not to "destroy the European Aircraft Industry".
60% GE, 40% RR. Thanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric/Rolls-Royce_F136

If Europe didn't want the F-35 all they had to do was build their own.
I agree. It's why I said that it was more a result than a conspiracy and that it's not only the fault of US.

Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2017, 05:49:44 pm »
The business plan from the outset was to (1) replace every non-US F-16 and F/A-18 and (2) involve the UK and Italy, who didn't have F-16s or F/A-18s but were EF partners. It wasn't a conspiracy, but an overt project.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2017, 07:10:01 pm »
Why this use of the word "conspiracy" ?

On the civilian market, Boeing would be happy to destroy Airbus (and then to buy this competitor) and Airbus would be happy to destroy Boeing (and then to buy this competitor too).

It's market, it's business, it's overt and not conspiracy, but the result would be the same : the end of one for the benefit of the other.

If in 30 years there is no more European own Combat Aircraft Industry, this result will be a business victory for LM and US ("if"... I insist, a lot). No more no less.


« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 07:50:09 pm by Deltafan »

Offline Hood

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2017, 02:38:56 am »
The real issue here is confusion on what is actually wanted. First its a Tornado replacement (as shown in the Airbus video) but the F-35 has already taken that role. Then the development timeline has been abdicated to 25 years based off experience with the Eurofighter (Lt Gen Muellner openly said that). So then a Typhoon/Rafale replacement tag is raised to fit the ballpark 25 years when a design might be ready.

As has been pointed out, Japan, South Korea and Turkey are progressing with "5th generation" (though we can only guess how much of that is cosmetic F-35 styling rather than full F-35-esque capability) so its not beyond the realms of possibility that Dassault and Airbus couldn't deliver an equivalent within 10 years if the political will and money was there.

The frustration is that Europe has missed the boat. If the Tornado operators had been serious about a replacement work should have begun at least a decade ago. Making an F-35 clone makes no sense as most potential customers will already have F-35s and get a good 40-50 years out of them (2060s) and it does nothing to push European industry further. Adding a second engine and seat just adds complexity and cost and by 2045 there might be an export PCA to compete against. Dassault with Neuron has the much better Tornado replacement within sight and surely that project would do more for Dassault and Airbus and the European industry in general. Who knows what a Eurofighter replacement should be in 2045? I don't think Airbus knows at present but now is the time to lay the groundwork, but it can't be allowed to take 25 years to get it in service.

Exports are vital but neither the Rafale or Eurofighter have been as successful as their predecessors (Jaguar, any Mirage series). The fighter market is saturated and that will only continue in the future, especially as the BRIC nation low-price competitors emerge. But a UCAV could well be more saleable to nations wanting high-end capabilities.

As a final tongue-in-cheek comment, all the Dassault versus Airbus chatter ignores one thing. Without BAe there would have been no Eurofighter.

Offline DWG

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2017, 04:17:05 am »
As a final tongue-in-cheek comment, all the Dassault versus Airbus chatter ignores one thing. Without BAe there would have been no Eurofighter.

OTOH, a lot of BAE's Eurofighter FCS team lives in Ottobrunn nowadays.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2017, 04:44:42 am »
As a final tongue-in-cheek comment, all the Dassault versus Airbus chatter ignores one thing. Without BAe there would have been no Eurofighter.
We are on SecretProjects.co.UK. Nobody ignores that ;)

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2017, 06:11:18 am »
The real issue here is confusion on what is actually wanted. First its a Tornado replacement (as shown in the Airbus video) but the F-35 has already taken that role. Then the development timeline has been abdicated to 25 years based off experience with the Eurofighter (Lt Gen Muellner openly said that). So then a Typhoon/Rafale replacement tag is raised to fit the ballpark 25 years when a design might be ready.

As has been pointed out, Japan, South Korea and Turkey are progressing with "5th generation" (though we can only guess how much of that is cosmetic F-35 styling rather than full F-35-esque capability) so its not beyond the realms of possibility that Dassault and Airbus couldn't deliver an equivalent within 10 years if the political will and money was there.

The frustration is that Europe has missed the boat. If the Tornado operators had been serious about a replacement work should have begun at least a decade ago. Making an F-35 clone makes no sense as most potential customers will already have F-35s and get a good 40-50 years out of them (2060s) and it does nothing to push European industry further. Adding a second engine and seat just adds complexity and cost and by 2045 there might be an export PCA to compete against. Dassault with Neuron has the much better Tornado replacement within sight and surely that project would do more for Dassault and Airbus and the European industry in general. Who knows what a Eurofighter replacement should be in 2045? I don't think Airbus knows at present but now is the time to lay the groundwork, but it can't be allowed to take 25 years to get it in service.

Exports are vital but neither the Rafale or Eurofighter have been as successful as their predecessors (Jaguar, any Mirage series). The fighter market is saturated and that will only continue in the future, especially as the BRIC nation low-price competitors emerge. But a UCAV could well be more saleable to nations wanting high-end capabilities.

As a final tongue-in-cheek comment, all the Dassault versus Airbus chatter ignores one thing. Without BAe there would have been no Eurofighter.

Absolutely.

Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2017, 09:13:10 am »
Barracuda and Taranis are less limited ?
Fortunately, when the British-French FCAS/SCAF will fly, France and UK will be as limited as each other...

Barracuda yes, Taranis no. LO is in the details, and there are significant details between Neuron and Taranis. The UK has a long history in LO through Replica, Nightjar, Taranis and other things. Big differences compared to the rest of Europe. UK/FR UCAS, they're building two different variants for each country.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2017, 08:08:04 pm »
Barracuda and Taranis are less limited ?
Fortunately, when the British-French FCAS/SCAF will fly, France and UK will be as limited as each other...

Barracuda yes, Taranis no. LO is in the details, and there are significant details between Neuron and Taranis. The UK has a long history in LO through Replica, Nightjar, Taranis and other things. Big differences compared to the rest of Europe. UK/FR UCAS, they're building two different variants for each country.
Sorry the English version seems no more available : http://www.ttu.fr/fcas-retour-taranis/
It seems that :
-BAE feels that it is at a disadvantage compared to Dassault on the program FCAS
-there is allways work with Northrop on the UCAS-D of the US Navy.
-the Taranis would have special batteries to use directed-energy weapon (DEW) (I found too : https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/bae-optimistic-about-fighter-borne-directed-energy-441554/ )
-there would be not enough money to continue Taranis and FCAS and UK must choose.

For the DEW, maybe. But I remember EF announcements (Naval Typhoon and Typhoon with thrust vectoring) that I never saw.

For Dassault, AFAIK they began to lightly "stealth" the Rafale A to make the Rafale C (the first name was Rafale D, for "Discrete"). Then there were the "Petit Duc" models UCAV and then the bigger "Moyen Duc". The "Grand Duc" was cancelled to make the Neuron. In Juny 2017, the French ONERA (it's for France what the NASA is for US) get work to study, among others, the compromises between stealth and aerodynamics.

For the FCAS, as far as I remember (the Jane's article that I shared, on another site on the 12.07.2016, is no more available), the basis will be the same but with different systems (but maybe the word system is not good). It will be interesting to compare the two prototypes when they will fly. I am happy in advance to see the announced superiority of the British version ;)

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2017, 12:21:20 am »
Discussing Taranis and FCAS is moving a bit off topic but there is a marked  contrast between British stealth efforts and how much they talk about it.

When the FCAS deal was signed the UK had decades of work on LO and VLO aircraft behind it, with some of BAE's designs littering this forum and extending beyond the early JSF period well into the late 90s. BAE had produced its own flying prototypes (not just subscale models) and tested then extensively (potentially since the 90s if you follow UFO reports). It had developed the AI and flight control for such aircraft as well as large scale manufacture of LO assemblies for the 'all American' F35.

Now admittedly both companies wont talk about everything they do, but a rushed redesign of the Rafale to reduce its RCS is not the same as the above. The drawback for the French is that everything they have done (on their own) is based on the Rafale.

 I am not rabidly pro or anti either side, but I have never seen the evidence that Dassault is as learned in the area of stealth as is beingsuggested. It certainly isn't markedly ahead of Airbus, who have a lot of work to point to from the early 80s onwards.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2017, 03:04:17 am »
I'am not sure that speaking of Taranis and / or FCAS is off topic, as maybe they will have an influence to a, potentially, future European fighter (maybe not with only France and Germany).

Well, waiting for the advent of Airbus and / or BAE stealths, something to compare for the readers


« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 03:18:27 am by Deltafan »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2017, 03:06:35 am »
X-47b

« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 03:17:21 am by Deltafan »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2017, 03:07:38 am »
FCAS (AFAIK)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 03:19:28 am by Deltafan »

Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2017, 05:24:32 am »
Boeing Phantom Ray
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Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2017, 06:02:40 am »
As you now, I'm still not convinced by the planform on display for FCAS (only Dassault have deigned to provide any imagery for FCAS in the past couple of years).

Do you think that the participation of the rest of Europe in Neuron was just politics and that Dassault could have done it all themselves? Genuine question.

Offline Trident

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2017, 07:09:15 am »
I'm sure Dassault found the contributions from the other participants more than just token support, but I would expect that - given more time and more money - they could indeed have done it all by themselves. Let's not delude ourselves here, who among the consortium members other than Saab of course is even remotely a peer to them in terms of military aviation experience, let alone would be able to teach them a thing or two (especially on the core subject of this argument, LO technology)?

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2017, 07:22:53 am »
Trident, I agree with your assessment. Perhaps one day we will see how the two prototypes for FCAS differ (although I suspect we will see lots of the French one and little else).

Offline Archibald

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2017, 08:58:00 am »
Everybody in this thread (bar Deltafan) seems to ignore Dassault experience in L.O with Neuron

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_nEUROn
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Offline Archibald

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2017, 09:02:45 am »
Typhoon is becoming antiquated?

Remember, it has a further 20+ years in service as of now, and likely more. It might be easy to dismiss this Franco-German project (actually much of Europe is incorporated in that "German" part) as purely political, but that would be to misunderstand how enthusiastic Europe is to be  united.

My opinion is that Europe will produce a successor to Typhoon and Rafale as it will also produce a UCAV, and the only question is how much of that Britain contributes to.

I would rather see the UK join with Japan on a future fighter, but has either country got the balls not to buy American?

Yes. Antiquated. I know exactly that I said and what  it infers.

Typhoon is flying radar target. It may have some slick moves at airshows, but it's fucked to use them in A2A like a lot of slick airshow maneuvers. Totally useless.

With Raptor and -35 and Pak Fa and the Chinese stuff, Typhoon is antiquated by comparison. In 13 years when PCA is allegedly going to be fielded, Typhoon will really be antiquated. I remember when Typhoon was a sketch on a napkin (figuratively). It's from a soon to be by-gone era of A2A combat. Granted the overwhelming majority of Russian equipment that Typhoon *would* see in combat is also antiquated, by today's measuring stick, and the measuring stick of what will be in 10 years, Typhoon is old.

Granted (again) there are no other stealth jets in service outside the US, but as soon as the Russians and Chinese are fielded, Typhoon is old school, baby. As is the French delta wing and the Gripen.

Europe is lagging behind the world in developing a LO aerial combat warplane. But hey, they're buying the -35 to fill that role. Hence, they will likely just work on a A2G drone with missilier capability in order to keep their engineers current and the socialist economy steaming ahead.

This is completely stupid. Ever heard of that missile called Meteor ? Armed with Meteor, Rafale, Typhoon and Grippen can quick arse of any fighter in the world for the next three decades.
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Offline Archibald

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2017, 09:05:19 am »
I would guess there is virtually no fighter experience on the French side of Airbus? Not that there needs to be, Dassault is after all an admirable agent to have in the game (to the extent that I would agree they should take the lead in overall concept design)!

Not since Aerospatiale (EADS since 2000) was told to shut up and let Dassault handle combat aircrafts. Their last atempt was in 1972, when they proposed to build A-7 Corsair II under licence for the Aéronavale. Also Alphajet competition which they lost.

That was 45 years ago.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 09:06:52 am by Archibald »
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Offline Archibald

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2017, 09:10:08 am »
Yes, a US program, incidentally to destroy the European Aircraft Industry, too... And maybe it will completely success...

It was a program developed to meet the needs of all the major military services in the U.S. It was not developed to destroy the European aircraft industry as they've never required any help from the U.S. in that regard.  Please keep the conspiracy theories elsewhere.

conspiracy ? Nice to Deltafan. And mind you, the F-35 was deliberately build as a steamroller to crush european competition, the next logical step after the F-16 and the "deal of the century" in 1974.
Lockheed bought F-16 builder General Dynamics in 1995 and the F-35 is the F-16 successor.

I'm amazed at the amount of siliness and arrogance floating in this thread.
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Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2017, 09:12:40 am »
This is completely stupid. Ever heard of that missile called Meteor ? Armed with Meteor, Rafale, Typhoon and Grippen can quick arse of any fighter in the world for the next three decades.

Sure, if you can survive long enough to use them. You won't get first look, first shot against a stealth fighter.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2017, 09:16:35 am »
And mind you, the F-35 was deliberately build as a steamroller to crush european competition,

Wrong. It was built to replace the F-16, F/A-18, and Harrier. The End.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline muttbutt

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2017, 09:30:53 am »
Quote
DUBAI, Nov 11 (Reuters) - A senior Italian air force official said on Saturday that he expects French and German plans to develop a new warplane will eventually include other European countries.

France and Germany announced in July they would jointly build a new European fighter jet to eventually replace the European Eurofighter and the French Dassault Rafale.

The joint declaration did not say what role, if any, other European countries would play. Italy is a partner in the Eurofighter project alongside France, Germany, Spain and Britain.

Italian Air Force Chief of Staff Enzo Vecciarelli told Reuters that he could not see the development of “such a complicated system” without including the wider European aerospace industry.

http://www.reuters.com/article/emirates-airshow/airshow-italy-sees-other-european-countries-joining-fighter-jet-programme-idUSL8N1NH0G0

Offline Blitzo

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2017, 03:10:42 pm »
FCAS (AFAIK)

Interesting cranked delta evolution to look closer to X-47B than the Neuron/Taranis/Phantom Ray/Sharp Swords of the world...

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2017, 12:45:14 am »
As to the FCAS planform, we are told that they have settled on a cranked delta, but both BAE's pet layout and Dassault's one pictured above could fall into that category.

We won't have to wait too much longer before an image of the selected layout appears.

Is it me or does the black model next to Taranis (from Farnborough last year) look different to the Dassault design?

« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 12:47:11 am by mrmalaya »

Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2017, 01:13:03 am »
Everybody in this thread (bar Deltafan) seems to ignore Dassault experience in L.O with Neuron

Its not ignored. Building a flying wing doesn't mean you've achieved the same level of RF or IR signature reduxtion. There are many detailed differences.

Blitzo - cranked wing configuration gives higher aspect ratio so better if you've got higher range goals, or want better low speed performande.

Offline kaiserd

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2017, 01:22:13 am »
And mind you, the F-35 was deliberately build as a steamroller to crush european competition,

Wrong. It was built to replace the F-16, F/A-18, and Harrier. The End.

The F-35 programmer deliberately involves the industrial involvement of the “European Competition” among many international partners.
For example BAE make approx 15 percent of each F-35 and Italy has its own F-35 factory.
Its European stakeholders see the F-35 as a chance to protect and enhance their aviation industry, not to crush it.

https://www.f35.com/in-depth/detail/the-f-35-contributes-to-the-global-economy

https://www.f35.com/global

« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 04:55:16 am by kaiserd »

Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2017, 04:54:35 am »
With the exception of Boeing Commercial Airplanes, nobody overtly says that their mission is to put the competition out of business. However...

Wrong. It was built to replace the F-16, F/A-18, and Harrier. The End.

Statements beginning "Wrong." and ending "The End." are generally incorrect or at least inadequate.

There was also the F-15E and equivalents, and of course "replacing the Harrier" meant involving three out of four Typhoon partners. Added to the promised price and capability, it was difficult (when it all got started, in 1996) to see much of a market for anything beyond Rafale, Gripen and Typhoon.

After 1996, with the exception of BAE Replica, so did any work anywhere in the West on anything other than UCAVs. Whether or not it could be called a "conspiracy", the demise of the European industry as a prime contractor for manned combat aircraft was at best collateral damage in the business plan.


Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2017, 04:58:36 am »
You won't get first look, first shot against a stealth fighter.

It's really astonishing that, almost a quarter-century after the RFI leading to Meteor hit the streets, there are still people who seem to think that first shot follows first look, as night follows day. 

« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 05:04:11 am by LowObservable »

Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2017, 06:13:58 am »
With the exception of Boeing Commercial Airplanes, nobody overtly says that their mission is to put the competition out of business. However...

Wrong. It was built to replace the F-16, F/A-18, and Harrier. The End.

Statements beginning "Wrong." and ending "The End." are generally incorrect or at least inadequate.

There was also the F-15E and equivalents,

Where has the USAF ever said they were replacing the F-15E with F-35s?  (That may be the result in the end, but that wasn't the intent when they started the program, and that's an entirely different thing.)

and of course "replacing the Harrier" meant involving three out of four Typhoon partners.

Again, that may have been the end result but nobody forced Europe to buy the F-35.  They could have built their own aircraft and there still would have been an F-35.

Added to the promised price and capability, it was difficult (when it all got started, in 1996) to see much of a market for anything beyond Rafale, Gripen and Typhoon.

Again, nothing was forcing Europe to buy F-35s.  And, as appears to be the intent going forward, they are indeed looking at collaborating to develop their own 5th gen aircraft (though, where Sweden already has their 6th gen Gripen, I don't know why France, Germany, and the UK couldn't just replace their Rafales and Typhoons with those). 

After 1996, with the exception of BAE Replica, so did any work anywhere in the West on anything other than UCAVs. Whether or not it could be called a "conspiracy", the demise of the European industry as a prime contractor for manned combat aircraft was at best collateral damage in the business plan.

And yet, as has been pointed out elsewhere, Japan, South Korea, and even Turkey, are working on 5th gen fighter programs.  And, it turns out, so is Europe.  All the doomsaying about the F-35 being the end of the world for Europe has, predictably, turned out to be incorrect.
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Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2017, 06:14:59 am »
You won't get first look, first shot against a stealth fighter.

It's really astonishing that, almost a quarter-century after the RFI leading to Meteor hit the streets, there are still people who seem to think that first shot follows first look, as night follows day.

It certainly seems to be the case the majority of the time with the F-22 and F-35.  Just sayin'.
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Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2017, 06:29:12 am »
Just sayin'.

That usually means "Thank you for listening to my uninformed opinion." 

It certainly seems to be the case the majority of the time with the F-22 and F-35.

I can think of many logical reasons why one might get that impression, of which "first look equals first shot" is only one.

Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2017, 06:41:27 am »
All the doomsaying about the F-35 being the end of the world for Europe has, predictably, turned out to be incorrect.

Errr.... predictably, according to whom? Certainly not this uninformed outsider:

The head of the Pentagon’s F-35 fighter program said on Wednesday that total sales of the Lockheed Martin Corp F-35 Joint Strike Fighter could reach 6,000 over time, based on the number of fourth-generation fighters in use that would eventually need to be replaced.

Brigadier Gen. David Heinz, program executive officer for the F-35, said development and testing of the new fighter jet was going well, and the United States and its eight foreign partners were expected to order more than 3,100 fighters.

Initial foreign military sales to other countries such as Spain, Israel, Greece, Singapore, South Korea, Japan and Finland could add at least 1,000 more orders.

In time, as world fleets of F-15, F-16, F-18 and other fighter jets need replacements, sales could climb as high as 6,000, Heinz told reporters at the Paris Air Show
.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-airshow-lockheed-fighter-sb/pentagon-sees-6000-possible-f-35-sales-idUSTRE55G28020090617

I don't recall a lot of people challenging that prediction at the time, and it couldn't come true unless the decline in combat airplane numbers in the West reversed itself in high gear, or unless the F-35 replaced everything else.

And it's a strawman to talk about anyone being forced to do anything. They were to be convinced by overwhelmingly attractive acquisition and operating costs.

PS - There's certainly never been any other replacement plan for the F-15E, nor was any major enhancement/life extension in the budget until the F-35 schedule slipped.


Offline Hood

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #75 on: November 12, 2017, 07:12:44 am »
I think a 1,000 F-35 airframes between Spain, Israel, Greece, Singapore, South Korea, Japan and Finland is optimistic, the European nations in that list have relatively small fighter fleets and dodgy economies. Israel doesn't seem to be bulk buying as yet, South Korea and Japan will probably buy some but their home-grown efforts are meant to be cheaper fleet-bulkers to operate with a smaller number of F-35s.
But I do think the F-35 is in for the long-haul and sales will accumulate, I doubt it well ever match the F-16 in terms of sales but I think that even in 2045 F-35s will still be rolling off the production line.

I think arguing over the F-35's industrial impact is irrelevant, its keeping facilities open that otherwise would now be idle and shut. Within ten years the Eurofighter lines will be shut, how long can Dassault keep the Rafale going before they run out of work? That's the big hole, the loss of industrial expertise of making stuff. Assembling bits of F-35 at least keeps people in work and the technical know-how running. At least BAE Systems is keeping their design folks busy by sub-contracting them out for other nations' projects.

Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #76 on: November 12, 2017, 07:20:17 am »
Errr.... predictably, according to whom? Certainly not this uninformed outsider:

I was never convinced simply because keeping the capability to develop fighter aircraft in-house is too important.  One only need to point to Japan, South Korea, Turkey, France, and Sweden for evidence of that.  Why would Europe be any different?
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Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #77 on: November 12, 2017, 07:55:21 am »
I think arguing over the F-35's industrial impact is irrelevant, its keeping facilities open that otherwise would now be idle and shut.

Wouldn't they be open and building different airplanes?

Offline DWG

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #78 on: November 14, 2017, 07:43:29 am »
Amazing that in the who did what to whom argument no one mentioned "And then the Warsaw Pact self-destructed and totally screwed all our projections." The problems affecting Typhoon/Rafale etc sales aren't so much an F-35 plot as the end of the Cold War sucking all the momentum out of their development, which as an indirect effect led to them competing with F-35

Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #79 on: November 14, 2017, 07:53:27 am »
Well, yes - NATO in the PCW era suddenly didn't have the threat that they had been arming against. The result (particularly USAF and France) was a drawdown via retirement-without-replacement of the oldest airplanes, which had the secondary effect of reducing the average age of the force. France and the EF nations dealt with that by pushing out the ISDs, while the US took a bet on stopping nearly all procurement and then buying something new at a rate of >150/year from 2010-2025.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #80 on: November 14, 2017, 03:44:16 pm »
PS - There's certainly never been any other replacement plan for the F-15E, nor was any major enhancement/life extension in the budget until the F-35 schedule slipped.

F-15E AESA upgrade funding started way back in the 2003-2004 period during which the USAF was still receiving new-build F-15Es
and telling congress that the F-15E would serve until at least 2030. 

GAO tells me the list of candidates seriously considered to the replace the F-15E goes all the way back to at least the A-12.

The RAND study from 1995 ("The Gray Threat") was already showing that the EFA (EF-2000) and Rafale were pricing themselves
out of the teen-series replacement market. 

That left Gripen which has been out-performed by upgraded teen-series in the Finnish and Swiss evaluations.
And because of Gripen's substantial US content, it's not that much cheaper to own/operate.

Of course, all of this talk about new combat aircraft development is silly since we've been told that it's all about upgrades, pods and payloads.

Offline Arjen

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2017, 03:10:32 am »
On cost: following the logic of the RAND study from 1995, I would say F-35 has priced itself out of the teen-series replacement race too.

When South Korea held its competition for 60 new fighters, F-15SE and Typhoon were offered within budget. The competition was re-run, with South Korea signing up for 40 F-35s, on the same budget.
The Dutch air force has had an inflation-corrected F-16 replacement budget since the late nineties, which at the start was deemed sufficient for 85 aircraft. This number dwindled to 37 a few years ago. The Dutch, having already paid for two development aircraft, have since ordered an additional 8 aircraft. More F-35s are expected to be ordered later, with some uncertainty whether enough will be left from the fixed, inflation corrected budget to achieve a 37 aircraft fleet. The Dutch accounting office has repeatedly warned about the financial burden of operating F-35s, identifying it as a threat to other defence activities - think army, navy.

Gripen E won the Swiss competition on cost (cost *really* matters), but the win was nixed by a referendum with no aircraft being ordered at all.
Brazil has chosen Gripen E(/F) as well.
On the Finnish competition, the verdict is yet to come.

I expect a new Franco-German jet to be extremely costly.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 04:17:55 am by Arjen »

Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #82 on: November 15, 2017, 04:45:10 am »
That left Gripen which has been out-performed by upgraded teen-series in the Finnish and Swiss evaluations.

As Arjen points out, this statement is nonfactual. The Swiss evaluation was against the Rafale and Typhoon, and the Gripen won, and the Finnish contest has not concluded.

And because of Gripen's substantial US content, it's not that much cheaper to own/operate.

Aside from being a nonsequitur, lower operational cost was the key to the Swiss decision.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #83 on: November 15, 2017, 07:35:33 am »
Keep in mind the Korean F-35 deal was for LRIP F-35s.  It's a little disingenuous to compare LRIP prices to well established fighter lines given that the F-35 is already far cheaper than the numbers in the Korean deal.
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Offline TomcatViP

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #84 on: November 15, 2017, 07:44:15 am »
That would be weird assumption given that the available price of the F35 is under 100M$ when 4th gen design (exept Russian) are understood to be above that line.

Offline Arjen

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #85 on: November 15, 2017, 08:25:33 am »
Keep in mind the Korean F-35 deal was for LRIP F-35s.  It's a little disingenuous to compare LRIP prices to well established fighter lines given that the F-35 is already far cheaper than the numbers in the Korean deal.
Let's wait and see how many F-35s the Dutch budget (or any other) will buy. To me, US government accounting of the F-35 project's cost is extremely complex and difficult to follow.
France and Germany may or may not go ahead with a new fighter. If they do, I dearly hope that project's cost will be easier to interpret.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 08:31:39 am by Arjen »

Offline marauder2048

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #86 on: November 15, 2017, 10:01:21 am »
That left Gripen which has been out-performed by upgraded teen-series in the Finnish and Swiss evaluations.

As Arjen points out, this statement is nonfactual. The Swiss evaluation was against the Rafale and Typhoon, and the Gripen won, and the Finnish contest has not concluded.

And because of Gripen's substantial US content, it's not that much cheaper to own/operate.

Aside from being a nonsequitur, lower operational cost was the key to the Swiss decision.

Note I said evaluation:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/81390363/Swiss-Air-Force-Confidential-Report-on-the-Evaluation-of-the-Eurofighter-the-Gripen-NG-and-the-Rafale

Quote
The Gripen's current capabilities for DCA missions are inferior to those of the Swiss F/A-18/CD,
which  entered service in the Swiss Air Force 11 years ago
.

It's pretty damning with regard to the proposed Gripen MS21 (~ NG) as well.

The Finnish Air Force evaluated the Gripen in the early 1990s (from hornetfinn)

Quote
Finnish evaluation in earrly 1990s showed that while Gripen had fairly low running costs,
it had expensive spare parts and F/A-18C/D actually had favourable life-time costs. This was serious
surprise as Hornet was not originally even considered as it was thought to be too
expensive to buy and operate. That assumption proved to be false and Hornet was selected
due to having best capabilties and also second cheapest life-time costs. Cheapest was not published b
ut many things indicate that it was F-16 which was the cheapest and Gripen the third.
I seriously doubt the costs have changed that much for Gripen since then.

On cost: following the logic of the RAND study from 1995, I would say F-35 has priced itself out of the teen-series replacement race too.

You're thinking of the Super Hornet which as RAND estimates predicted turned out to be very expensive
and generally uncompetitive.

When South Korea held its competition for 60 new fighters, F-15SE and Typhoon were offered within budget.

The F-15SE did not exist in any meaningful way which combined with the fact that is used a hybrid FMS/direct commercial
sale made cost comparisons and predictions problematic as subsequent events showed.

Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #87 on: November 15, 2017, 11:21:14 am »
Keep in mind the Korean F-35 deal was for LRIP F-35s.  It's a little disingenuous to compare LRIP prices to well established fighter lines given that the F-35 is already far cheaper than the numbers in the Korean deal.

LRIP schmelrip (maybe I shouldn't use that expression around Marauder ;D), the first RoKAF aircraft will still be production number >250.

Yes, there was that Swiss document. It was clearly not final -  since they picked the Gripen. And a second-hand account of a Finnish evaluation prior to the 1992 Hornet order is of historical interest at best.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 11:22:59 am by LowObservable »

Online SpudmanWP

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #88 on: November 15, 2017, 11:31:30 am »
Quote
the first RoKAF aircraft will still be production number >250.
Which is still being produced at a rate much lower than FRP.
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Offline marauder2048

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #89 on: November 15, 2017, 12:55:01 pm »
LRIP schmelrip (maybe I shouldn't use that expression around Marauder ;D), .

Feel free to use unscholarly language; it's the generally unscholarly approach that makes me  :'(.

historical interest at best.

Appropriate given we were talking about the history and motivations for the JSF program.
The Swiss and Finnish evaluation show that the RAND assessment withstands the test of time
and we've seen that Raymer's follow-on work at RAND was deeply influential to USAF thinking on JSF.



Offline Arjen

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #90 on: November 15, 2017, 01:11:22 pm »
You were writing about UPDATED teen-series outperforming Gripen. That doesn't fit the earlier Swiss and Finnish competitions. My point was that if you posit Typhoon and Raphale as pricing themselves out of the teen-series replacement business, the same goes for F-35.

I fear the new Franco-German fighter, if it comes, will be just as costly. The Swiss and Brazilian governments decided to settle for what they saw as good enough, like the USA decided against the more capable Airbus tanker in favour of the cheaper Boeing tanker. Both met requirements, outperforming the requirements wasn't important enough - or so has been communicated.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 12:26:04 am by Arjen »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #91 on: November 15, 2017, 01:23:50 pm »
I fear the new Franco-German fighter, if it comes, will be just as costly.

It will cost a lot more due to:
1.  "Too many cooks in the kitchen" in the same way that caused the split of France from Eurofighter.
2.  It can never be made in the numbers & rate at which the F-35 is being built so it can never match the F-35's price if it tries to match it's capabilities.
3.  It's development cost will be much higher per airframe due to lower numbers of planes that can be built.
4.  Two engines
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Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #92 on: November 15, 2017, 01:27:47 pm »
You were writing about UPDATED teen-series outperforming Gripen. That doesn't fit the earlier Swiss and Finnish competitions. My point was that if you posit Typhoon and Raphale as pricing themselves out of the teen-series replacement business, the same goes for F-35.

Except that neither of those two are being built in anything like the planned F-35 numbers so that doesn't necessarily follow.
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Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #93 on: November 15, 2017, 01:49:12 pm »
So where does RAND conclude that the Europeans had priced themselves out of the "teen-series replacement market"?

That doesn't seem to be what is being said here:


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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #94 on: November 15, 2017, 02:15:21 pm »
So where does RAND conclude that the Europeans had priced themselves out of the "teen-series replacement market"?

Your own example shows it.

Quote
The "gray threat" can be taken seriously only if the new European fighters are likely to be sold in significant numbers outside of Europe (they were not).
In the uncertain strategic global environment that is evolving in the wake of the Cold War, it is difficult to predict the likely sales prospects for these fighters. However, three basic points can be made. First, several of the key European governments and contractors involved in these programs appear to be more committed than ever before to promoting foreign sales and seem determined to do whatever it takes to win export orders (they were not since they "bowed out" of several competitions claiming "it was already in the bag for the US"). Second, the export price of these fighters will likely be broadly competitive with U.S. fighters available for export (again, they were not). Third, a large potential market outside of Europe exists. As a result, it is probable that major export orders for one or more of the new European fighters will eventually be won.

History shows that they were not able to meet the goals of price.
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Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #95 on: November 15, 2017, 02:23:23 pm »
Which is still being produced at a rate much lower than FRP.

There's pretty small reductions in cost due to leaner curve effects over 200 aircraft. A further 5-10% reduction in F-35 UPC doesn't come remotely close to matching the ~50% cost differential cf Typhoon in the Korea competition.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #96 on: November 15, 2017, 02:39:26 pm »
EF was eliminated before a final contract was signed so the only thing they ever officially offered was a vague "bid".

However, if you look at actual contracts signed, the F-35 has been far cheaper than the F-18E, F-15E, Eurofighter, and Rafale.

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Offline marauder2048

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #97 on: November 15, 2017, 03:03:20 pm »
You were writing about UPDATED teen-series outperforming Gripen. That doesn't fit the earlier Swiss and Finnish competitions.

Factually incorrect. The Swiss F/A-18s in the evaluation had undergone the Hornet 21 updates that were purchased in 2003.
If you read the evaluation, those updates greatly contributed to the F/A-18's edge in several tasks.

I don't know which F/A-18 configuration the Finns were considering during their evaluation.


Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #98 on: November 15, 2017, 03:07:16 pm »
M-2048 was saying that RAND had predicted the failure of the Europeans to reach a price point where the teen-series could be replaced.

Typing stuff into the quote in red does not change the fact that RAND predicted otherwise.

Also, as you should know... well, actually, as you do know, comparing package prices to US contract prices is a very hazardous thing to do.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #99 on: November 15, 2017, 03:18:59 pm »
comparing package prices to US contract prices is a very hazardous thing to do.
Even taking the final FMS F-35 Korean contract and comparing it to other US FMS deals (F-15 & F-18) shows the F-35 to be a better deal and is only getting cheaper by the day.
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Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #100 on: November 15, 2017, 04:15:50 pm »
But the USAF has reduced its planned peak annual production rate by 25 per cent (80 to 60), as shown in the FY18 SAR. Why do they do this when the jet is "getting cheaper by the day?"


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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #101 on: November 15, 2017, 07:17:21 pm »
They make lot's of stupid decisions, you'll have to ask them.

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Offline marauder2048

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #102 on: November 15, 2017, 07:37:58 pm »
Quote
So where does RAND conclude that the Europeans had priced themselves out of the "teen-series replacement market"?
M-2048 was saying that RAND had predicted the failure of the Europeans to reach a price point where the teen-series could be replaced.

vs.

Quote
The RAND study from 1995 ("The Gray Threat") was already showing that the EFA (EF-2000) and Rafale were pricing themselves
out of the teen-series replacement market. 

Not sure how you get predicted or concluded. But Table 4 shows pretty clearly than even under what
Raymer regards as optimistic and potentially naive assumptions about European fighter production rates /costs
and rather pessimistic assumptions on new-build teen-series rates that the  European fighters (aside from Gripen)
would be more expensive than anything other than the Super Bug.

The part you excerpted follows from Raymer's other assumption that

Quote
The Europeans can, of course, offset higher prices with better deals on
technology transfer and industrial participation.

Which in Hungary came down to consumer refrigerator production. 

But the USAF has reduced its planned peak annual production rate by 25 per cent (80 to 60), as shown in the FY18 SAR. Why do they do this when the jet is "getting cheaper by the day?"

They submit their funded quantity request and then their unfunded quantity request.
Congress has shown great enthusiasm for combining these quantities.






Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #103 on: November 16, 2017, 12:17:20 am »
However, if you look at actual contracts signed, the F-35 has been far cheaper than the F-18E, F-15E, Eurofighter, and Rafale.

Comparing apples and potatoes is really clutching at straws

Offline Harrier

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #104 on: November 16, 2017, 02:49:15 am »
Pomme-de-terre for Dassault!
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Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #105 on: November 16, 2017, 04:14:27 am »
However, if you look at actual contracts signed, the F-35 has been far cheaper than the F-18E, F-15E, Eurofighter, and Rafale.

Comparing apples and potatoes is really clutching at straws

What should they compare if not signed contracts?  ???
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Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #106 on: November 16, 2017, 04:25:56 am »
Unfunded requests are for the current FY. The reduction to 60/year is in the program of record.

As for the AF's wishes for the current year, rather than speculate, here are the facts (page 6).

http://docs.house.gov/meetings/AS/AS25/20170216/105552/HHRG-115-AS25-Wstate-HarrisJ-20170216.pdf

An overview of modernization is here:

https://www.armed-services.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Harris-Bunch-Nowland_03-29-17.pdf

Of course, none of these problems would exist had the program - which has always been fully funded in development - stayed on the 2010 schedule. Let alone the 2008 schedule.




Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #107 on: November 16, 2017, 04:27:22 am »
Of course, none of these problems would exist had the program - which has always been fully funded in development - stayed on the 2010 schedule. Let alone the 2008 schedule.

Did any of the Eurocanards meet their initial schedules?
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Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #108 on: November 16, 2017, 04:37:52 am »
Did any of the Eurocanards meet their initial schedules?

Obviously not, and for reasons that are clear and on the public record and that have been frequently discussed here. You are quite aware of them. I believe a lawyer would describe your question as "vexatious".

By the way, one factor that makes the comparison of contracts difficult is that FMS contract announcements and disclosures are subject to Federal acquisition regulations and (clearly) contracts between two non-US entities are not. Furthermore, European governments have an incentive to "big up" the announced contract value to show the voters that they are getting a fat return on their investment. This doesn't have much of a competitive effect because prospective customers know what they're really paying and what the financial terms are.

Offline Hood

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #109 on: November 16, 2017, 08:59:23 am »
Did any of the Eurocanards meet their initial schedules?

Nope, and going by the German AF comments (if they do represent their thinking) they don't expect Airbus or Dassault to manage a new fighter without taking a quarter of century either.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #110 on: November 17, 2017, 05:07:18 am »
Assembling bits of F-35 at least keeps people in work and the technical know-how running. At least BAE Systems is keeping their design folks busy by sub-contracting them out for other nations' projects.

However, if you look at actual contracts signed, the F-35 has been far cheaper than the F-18E, F-15E, Eurofighter, and Rafale.

I don't know if I'll live enough old to see this, but, I am very (very !) impatient to see the efficiency of british know-how for other nations' projects (the wonderful meetdeadlines and cost controllers TFX and F-3, for example) and the cheapier future of the F-35 (compared to previous génération planes), notably for buyers of small quantities...

One example (among a lot of others...) of my mind... : 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/17/ministry-defence-facing-hundreds-millions-hidden-costs-new-fighter/

and that with a land involved in the stealth aspect of the plane...


Well, beyond irony (even if I thought 100% of what I wrote), the Israel case will be, for me, the most realistic test for the efficiency, the reliability and the cost controls of the marvellous plane that (almost) all the world want to buy or imitate... 

Appointments in 5, 10, 20, 30 years...


Alas, I am not sure that a France-Germany (maybe with others) fighter jet (if eventually it will exist...) will be cheapier, more cost controller, more reliable, more deadlines meeter and more efficient. Not considering that there will be a day where there will be a RADAR (or other system) to see all the stealth planes like the other planes... And each new year advances the arrival of this new system... It is not impossible that this plane will be already obsolete when it will fly for the first time...

Appointments in a future... (maybe)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 05:25:42 am by Deltafan »

Offline Arjen

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #111 on: November 17, 2017, 05:35:40 am »
Nope, and going by the German AF comments (if they do represent their thinking) they don't expect Airbus or Dassault to manage a new fighter without taking a quarter of century either.
If I remember correctly, one reason Rafale's development took so long was that the French government consciously slowed down  matters because of a limited budget - not because Dassault couldn't develop things faster.
With Dassault only having to defer on Rafale to the French government as opposed to the the various partners in the Tornado and Typhoon projects, Rafale's development  might have been much quicker with more generous funding.

Looking at Dassault's track record, governments taking ages to specify what requirements are to be met are more likely to delay/scuttle this project.

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #112 on: November 17, 2017, 05:46:08 am »
The problem is that a long term strategy (past F35) can't be made without innovation minded interlocutors in the industry. Our military can't build a realistic proper vision by themselves. They need input from industrial. When was that the last time when Airbus Military and Dassault did field something at least Evolutionary ?
 

Otherwise, I agree with you on the Rafale project. Without the imposed delay, the dev time could have been cut by almost a decade and certainly a bunch of billions of Euro
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 05:48:42 am by TomcatViP »

Offline Hood

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #113 on: November 17, 2017, 05:49:30 am »
A related point is that its not just the airframe you need to worry about but the avionics that go into it.

As was pointed out in the Japanese F-3 thread, development of the F-3 is slowing due to the development costs. Screwing together the ATD-X demonstrator was one thing but you need the radars, passive sensors, datalinks etc. to go into it. Japan has now found it needs international partners to fill out its "empty box". In Japan's case a lot of that equipment will probably be US.

What are Airbus and Dassault going to use in the new fighter? Warmed over Eurofighter parts or reliance on French avionics (Thales & MBDA)?
CAPTOR-E has taken a long time to get to fruition, design work beginning in 1993 and so far only the UK has backed its acquisition. Look at the political disinclination to fund Tranche 3B in Germany, Meteor integration and Storm Shadow integration. Despite all the demands for super-maneuverability by the Germans when EFA was created, thrust-vectoring still hasn't materialised even in test hardware form. It's this kind of penny-pinching that has drawn out Eurofighter development and probably made it more costly in the long run.

Neither government have proven to be keen on spending on development programmes and that has slowed progress but France at least has a a 100% French aircraft, engine and major avionics package to show for it. Even so, its this past history that makes me skeptical that suddenly both governments are going to ask Airbus or Dassault to make them a new programme costing billions of Euros. France may well have the greater drive to find a Rafale successor but they haven't the deep pockets to go it alone, especially if it turns out Berlin was just playing along, saying the right political words without intending to spend anything.

Offline kaiserd

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #114 on: November 18, 2017, 01:21:36 am »
If I may I think some of the contributors are missing the wider point.
What is being proposed is not a direct F-35 competitor, but a long term project to create the technology for and to build a Typhoon/ Rafale, and potentially F-35, replacement; what comes next.

As such issues raised around costs and efficient management are valid (promises to be very expensive over many years), as are concerns that it would have to compete with (parallel?) UCAV projects and that it may be difficult to sustain the political will to see the project through.

However issues raised around technical ability of Airbus and Dassualt to build it and its associated avionics, technology etc. appear misplaced.
And if this project was to be put on a firmer footing then involvement by the likes of Saab and BAe (post potential Brexit-related acrimony) in this project or whatever this project ends up evolving into is also quite likely.

Offline Arjen

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #115 on: November 18, 2017, 01:48:25 am »
And if this project was to be put on a firmer footing then involvement by the likes of Saab and BAe (post potential Brexit-related acrimony) in this project or whatever this project ends up evolving into is also quite likely.
Ideally, cooperation can lead to a result bigger than the sum of its constituent parts.
However:
Quote
the anecdote alluded to in Hesketh Pearson’s Bernard Shaw: His Life and Personality (p. 310-311) when “a strange lady giving an address in Zürich wrote him a proposal, thus: “You have the greatest brain in the world, and I have the most beautiful body; so we ought to produce the most perfect child.” Shaw asked: “What if the child inherits my body and your brains?”

Offline kaiserd

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #116 on: November 18, 2017, 03:17:37 am »
And if this project was to be put on a firmer footing then involvement by the likes of Saab and BAe (post potential Brexit-related acrimony) in this project or whatever this project ends up evolving into is also quite likely.
Ideally, cooperation can lead to a result bigger than the sum of its constituent parts.
However:
Quote
the anecdote alluded to in Hesketh Pearson’s Bernard Shaw: His Life and Personality (p. 310-311) when “a strange lady giving an address in Zürich wrote him a proposal, thus: “You have the greatest brain in the world, and I have the most beautiful body; so we ought to produce the most perfect child.” Shaw asked: “What if the child inherits my body and your brains?”

Perhaps more aptly for the European military aircraft industry going forward;
“If we do not hang together, we will all hang separately.”
Benjamin Franklin

Offline Arjen

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #117 on: November 18, 2017, 03:42:25 am »
Indeed. Necessary, but not sufficient.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #118 on: November 18, 2017, 05:42:22 am »
You know what, I actually do question whether a Franco-German Euro-Canard replacement would work for the UK.

BAE just fired thousands of people because they have a shortage of future work. They and many others want the UK Government to commit to a Typhoon replacement programme now, not in 10 years time when it suits the above players.

That means BAE developing and designing technology for an aircraft to fly in 20+ years time. The potential UK Aviation Industrial Strategy cannot be based around shared technology with France (FCAS at this stage), the rest of Europe (this project) and the US (the F35 and future projects).

Although bizarrely it does seem to be coalescing around promotion of the Hawk trainer!?!

 

Offline kaiserd

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #119 on: November 18, 2017, 11:10:13 am »
You know what, I actually do question whether a Franco-German Euro-Canard replacement would work for the UK.

BAE just fired thousands of people because they have a shortage of future work. They and many others want the UK Government to commit to a Typhoon replacement programme now, not in 10 years time when it suits the above players.

That means BAE developing and designing technology for an aircraft to fly in 20+ years time. The potential UK Aviation Industrial Strategy cannot be based around shared technology with France (FCAS at this stage), the rest of Europe (this project) and the US (the F35 and future projects).

Although bizarrely it does seem to be coalescing around promotion of the Hawk trainer!?!

If you want to do anything about those job losses you need to sell more Typhoons and Hawks now or in the immediate past.
The UK doesn’t need a Typhoon replacement in any like the timescale that would save those jobs.
The anywhere near recent past, present and future of the UK military aviation industry is and has to in international cooperation. For example the Hawk is now essentially a joint project with India.
The UK doesn’t have the means or the will for it to be any other way.

Offline Hood

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #120 on: November 19, 2017, 02:26:59 am »
BAE Systems isn't doing anything on its own. To think otherwise is fantasy.

If you actually think how many aircraft British Aerospace and BAE Systems have actually designed themselves you'll find yourself using the fingers of one hand. Most of BAe's  products were 'legacy' types from BAC and Hawker Siddeley.
Then look at how many times BAE dumped its product lines to avoid shelling out development costs, the 125 and 146 being prime examples. Now the Hawk is almost out of life, so BAE gets India to share the costs, India wins in its 'Make in India' policy and BAE wins in getting a cheap production line if the re-winged Hawk does extend its life and gains extra customers. Once Hawk is dead BAE is out of the trainer market for good.
BAE has done much tinkering with UAVs and stealth research probably since the 1980s, but there has been little if any tangible benefits beyond what may have got into Typhoon and the F-35. Typhoon is the last remaining military aircraft link until production ends. BAE Systems doesn't really build aircraft any more, it does lucrative design work and sub-contract work. BAe might just have made the EAP into a fighter had it been forced to go it alone, but toady its impossible that Taranis could become a UK-only programme.


Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #121 on: November 19, 2017, 02:46:27 am »
I don't say that Taranis is going to be a UK only project or that the Typhoon replacement is going to be a UK only project.

 What I do say, is that the French aren't in a hurry to replace Rafale, the Germans weren't in a hurry to get Typhoon and they will not be the first to replace it- consequently the decision to do anything other than talk about their replacement will be a long and drawn out process.

FCAS has great potential for the French and the British, in terms of actually building a stealth aircraft, development of all the sensors and communications for future aircraft and to some extent the propulsion for a Rafale upgrade.

It is also likely that the development of a UCAV will spur/inform future fighter tactics and development. Both sides have repeatedly stated that FCAS is not just about the unmanned demonstrator.

My opinion is that FCAS is enough for France for the immediate future and that any agreement with Germany is merely a place holder until something firm needs to happen.

So what the UK needs is a commitment to a project beyond building one demonstrator or talking to the US/Japan about whether we can share development with them. Turkey may yield some useful flying technology for the British to incorporate, but even their fighter is too young to allow a firm UK project initiation.

Talk of Hawk is only about keeping jobs now. We need to be able to redirect people onto something for the future and that needs action, not words.




Offline lastdingo

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #122 on: November 19, 2017, 03:39:51 am »
Being in a hurry or not - there's no reason to expect substantial quantities of operationally effective fighters from this effort before 2040. They may claim 2035, but delays will happen short of much more major conventional warfare in Europe.

What matters is how urgent the piece will be in 203x, not how urgent it is today. The early studies that are usually done for such a project don't cost terribly much, it's only reasonable to launch them now to avoid further delay. They should have started with that as the first EF came into service.

Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #123 on: November 19, 2017, 05:43:49 am »
AI + Big Data, the global technosphere, and the changing nature of international competition (think OBOR), are going to turn warfare on its head, to the extent that they have not already done so.

Autonomy, directed energy, portable electrical power and additive manufacturing will change the way that armed forces are equipped, to operate in the world outlined in the above sentence. (The previous First Sea Lord said in public in September that an autonomous SSN, achievable in a next-generation timeframe at most, would always beat a manned SSN. I was expecting Zombie Lord Nelson to materialize and beat him to a pulp with his good arm.)

Anytime we think about a clean-sheet-of-paper product, we should remember all this.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 11:55:24 am by LowObservable »

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #124 on: November 19, 2017, 09:42:54 am »
It's for those reasons that I am very dubious about the value of '5th generation' like the TFX to the UK, other than to keep BAE in work whilst we dither.

The UK has already initiated the studies for the next fighter project. BAE have been developing the AI for UAVs for most of this century and I believe this sort of lead is what will distinguish the British FCAS from it's neighbour.

They will share structural work and an engine but will they think the same?

Is there any evidence that any other potential FCAS partner has been thinking about the use of DEW and energy storage requirements , developing AI and working on LO for decades?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 09:44:48 am by mrmalaya »

Offline fightingirish

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« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 10:49:42 am by fightingirish »
Slán,
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #126 on: April 25, 2018, 10:49:33 am »
Quote
MTU reveals next-generation fighter engine


MTU Aero Engines has revealed a new future powerplant for combat aircraft to be ready for fielding in the early 2030s.

Conceptual artwork of the Next European Fighter Engine, which was revealed at the ILA Airshow in Berlin. (IHS Markit/Gareth Jennings)Conceptual artwork of the Next European Fighter Engine, which was revealed at the ILA Airshow in Berlin. (IHS Markit/Gareth Jennings)

The manufacturer disclosed the Next European Fighter Engine (NEFE) in a product brochure distributed at the ILA Airshow in Berlin in late April.

As noted in the brochure, the NEFE is being developed alongside the New Fighter (NF) combat aircraft and the Next-Generation Weapon System (NGWS) as part of a wider drive to preserve European defence industrial sovereignty under the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) project.

To meet the planned 2040 in-service date of the future combat aircraft being developed by Airbus and Dassault, MTU is already engaged in defining the aircraft’s twin-engined powerplant under the direction of the German Federal Ministry of Defence (BMVg).

In developing the NEFE, MTU has to meet a number of exacting requirements that include improved thrust and lower fuel consumption over current powerplants; low development and manufacturing costs; efficient maintenance and long projectable maintenance intervals; high electrical power extraction for aircraft systems; as well as maximum robustness and reliability.

“For the next-generation engine, MTU has identified various technologies of the future, which it wants to develop further,” the brochure stated, adding that these include multi-disciplinary methods and simulations in the design of engine concepts and in the components. Additive manufacturing and the use of ‘bionic design’ also open up new possibilities, MTU said. Furthermore, new designs and new materials, such as ceramic matrix composites, reduce the weight while enabling higher engine temperatures for more power delivery.

http://www.janes.com/article/79573/ila-2018-mtu-reveals-next-generation-fighter-engine

Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #127 on: April 25, 2018, 11:02:49 am »
Hmm, so "reveals" now means "done a few paper studies"...

Likewise, Airbus and Dassault "launch" fighter development with no whiff whatsoever of any government contract

Where is the money for any of this? It basically just seems to be Airbus and Dassault and MTU shouting "give me money". Good pr but little actual work.

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #128 on: April 25, 2018, 03:23:26 pm »
I totally agree with that. This is why it woul be good to have the actual statement from officials and not this kind of pre-digested media report.
Airbus CEO was more realistic on Tuesday (quoted on Keypub/News forum).

Quote
Airbus’s German operation is working with French warplane specialist Dassault Aviation SA on a fighter platform involving a range of aerial products, including drones and “swarms” of small aircraft, Enders said [...].
“We’re not talking about ‘a’ military aircraft,” he said in Berlin. “We’re talking about a system of military-combat airborne elements. It’s a different system.” It’s not even clear whether there will be role for a piloted plane, the CEO added, saying that depends on requirements specified by the French and German governments.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 03:28:07 pm by TomcatViP »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #129 on: April 27, 2018, 12:46:02 pm »
Dassault will be project manager for the FCAS (same name as the French-British UCAV [dead ?] project) and the plane will be navalisable.

I have links in French,  but this link is better for a forum in British :

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/dassault-named-leader-of-future-european-fighter.80971/

Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #130 on: April 27, 2018, 01:40:24 pm »
Interesting that no other stories picked that up. The message appears to be very different whether the French or the Germans are doing the briefing. No doubt Dassault is manoeuvring to get a fait accompli before Germany can bring in more partner countries e.g. UK, Sweden, Italy, Spain...

Offline Hood

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #131 on: April 28, 2018, 02:37:06 am »
They are going to have to get more partner nations involved, if for nothing else to spread the R&D costs and reduce the unit costs. Although analysis has shown that single-nation developments like Rafale and Gripen are not necessarily more expensive than multi-national collaborations, the political will still has to be there to take on those costs.

It took three nations to fund the Tornado (844 aircraft exc. Saudi exports). For Typhoon it required four nations and only 472 out of the 1998 production contract for 620 (exc. exports) have been ordered/built. The UK has spent £22.9 billion already and perhaps as much as £37 billion by completion. Germany had spent €21.3 billion by 2004 (around €120 million unit cost, lately reduced to €90 mil), the Spanish have paid €11.7 billion (roughly resulting in €160 million per airframe).

180 Rafales out of originally 286 planned have been ordered and 150 completed so far. The total programme cost (to FY2013) was around €45.9 billion, with a unit cost of  €160.5 million (latterly €101.1 million for the F3+).

By comparison the Dutch government are spending €4.5 billion for 37 F-35s (equated to €121.6 million each) but of course the F-35 as a complete programme is far higher, more than France and Germany could sustain on their own assuming the new fighter is of equivalent (hopefully superior) standard. If France and Germany take 150 each and Spain takes 70 then it could perhaps sustain a reasonable production run. But who knows what future economics between now and 2040 will result in. In 1988 Parliament was told Eurofighter would cost £7 billion and since then £30 billion has been added to the bill!


Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #132 on: April 28, 2018, 03:58:55 am »
Interesting that no other stories picked that up. The message appears to be very different whether the French or the Germans are doing the briefing. No doubt Dassault is manoeuvring to get a fait accompli before Germany can bring in more partner countries e.g. UK, Sweden, Italy, Spain...
How bad can be these arrogant Frenchs. Not like all these kind Typhoon and F-35 builders and buyers ;D

And, of course, only Germany wants to bring in more partner countries...  ("no doubt" is the best evidence that I ever read) ::)

It seems, however, and according to German Minister Ursula von de Leyen, that France will be "leader nation" for the project :

https://www.lopinion.fr/blog/secret-defense/l-allemagne-confirme-que-france-dassault-seront-leaders-l-avion-combat-148671

But it's probably disinformation from France, once more again, like the information that as Dassault will be leader for the manned plane, Airbus will be leader for all the system of systems (with UCAV) of the project...
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 06:32:21 am by Deltafan »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #133 on: April 28, 2018, 05:00:38 am »
180 Rafales out of originally 286 planned have been ordered and 150 completed so far. The total programme cost (to FY2013) was around €45.9 billion, with a unit cost of  €160.5 million (latterly €101.1 million for the F3+).
If Hollande wanted to stop the programme at 180, the last Military Programming Law foresees to order 30 more in 2023 (and 15 more are hoped for later).



Offline Archibald

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #134 on: April 28, 2018, 10:28:40 am »
Quote
How bad can be these arrogant Frenchs. Not like all these kind Typhoon and F-35 builders and buyers ;D

And, of course, only Germany wants to bring in more partner countries...  ("no doubt" is the best evidence that I ever read) ::)

Marcel Dassault managed one hell of a feat: to get a worse reputation than De Gaulle as "the arrogant and annoying frenchman".

I can tell from twelve years on varied aerospace / english speaking forums that, while the "Cheese eating monkey" thing is frowned upon and long dead, both Dassault and De Gaulle reputations remain... troublesome (half joking; don't take that too seriously)
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Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #135 on: April 29, 2018, 01:23:10 am »
@Deltafan

But the non-French news outlets are definitely not saying that from what I've seen. Pretty much every story includes German intent to open this to other countries. Maybe Dassault thinks that a deal has been agreed, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence for it. It seems strange that no one else would report on this...

@Hood

Think about inflation, and whether development, procurement or whole life costs are being quoted. Quite easy to get radically different cost numbers if they're talking about different things.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #136 on: April 29, 2018, 02:41:05 am »
Red Admiral,
Indeed inflation has probably been a major factor.
Interestingly I haven't come across any definitive figure on how much Typhoon has cost overall to develop and build. Instead there seems to be varying sums calculated by each government as they've become worried about the cost, but I've seen nothing on what Italy has spent or contributed to the R&D pot. Most of the online sources I've seen date from 2006-2013 so aren't completely up to date. My gut feeling is that the four-nation production and split procurement hasn't helped reduce costs but instead has had the opposite effect.

Rafale's unit price seems comparable and France has been willing (and able) to fund it alone. If Germany suddenly had the same urge to stump up €20-25 billion to go 50/50 with France then I'd say its possible. But the political reality is that it is unlikely. Also the 22 year timeline is far too long, major technological changes are going to occur before then. What game-changing technologies can Dassault and Airbus bring to the party given that Eurofighter will still be around until 2060 and F-35 to beyond that. Waiting 22 years to introduce an F-35 clone two decades late is a waste of resources. A UCAV for strike missions seems to be a safer future-proof bet and Dassault could lead on that but I'm guessing that manned aircraft is still what the air forces (and potential export buyers) desire.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #137 on: April 29, 2018, 05:19:23 am »
@Deltafan
But the non-French news outlets are definitely not saying that from what I've seen. Pretty much every story includes German intent to open this to other countries. Maybe Dassault thinks that a deal has been agreed, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence for it. It seems strange that no one else would report on this...
The French sources write that during ILA Ursula von der Leyen said, in French, that Germany will be leader for Eurodrone and the next MBT, and France will be leader for the FCAS.

If somebody has this speech in video, it could be interesting for the next part of this topic...

Edit :

from Deutsche Welle (Germany's public international broadcaster) :

Quote
Treibende Kraft bei der Entwicklung des neues Jets wird Frankreich sein, wie von der Leyen ankündigte

Translation :

The driving force in the development of the new jet will be France, as announced by Von der Leyen

www.dw.com/de/neuer-deutsch-französischer-kampfjet-kann-gebaut-werden/a-43552915
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 05:33:01 am by Deltafan »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #138 on: May 14, 2018, 12:54:51 pm »
Interview of the French Defense Minister in the French Weekly Aerospace Magazine Air & Cosmos :

Scaf (this is the word used by the magazine) :

"If we want, at first, to preserve the French-German cooperation to give a solid foundation to the Scaf project, this does not exclude that this project can open later to other European partners. Some have already made the request and nothing forbids to open this project to the United Kingdom, if it wishes".

(sorry for my bad English...)

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #140 on: June 19, 2018, 04:04:18 pm »
And it seems that it's foreseen to start "demonstrators", quickly :

http://www.air-cosmos.com/scaf-la-france-nation-leader-sur-le-projet-112279

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #141 on: June 19, 2018, 05:50:08 pm »
Airbus warns governments not to interfere in European fighter programme

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/airbus-warns-governments-not-to-interfere-in-european-fighter-programme/articleshow/64602160.cms

Wishful thinking when defense programs are equally welfare/pork/kickbacks as they are weapons programs in this day and age.
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #142 on: June 19, 2018, 08:18:01 pm »
According Belgium News media.

offers Dassault the Belgium Government a share in R&D and Production of this new French-German Fighter jet.
If Belgium buy Dassault Rafale Jets to replace aging Belgium F-16

But still there is little issue about Dassault getting the contract for this new French-German Fighter jet...
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #143 on: June 20, 2018, 10:44:38 am »
According to the German aircraft magazine Flug Revue, the French side, in this case the company Dassault,  will take the leadership in developing the new fighter jet, while the German side, probably K+M,  will lead the development of the new battle tank.
Source (German): https://www.flugrevue.de/militaerluftfahrt/kampfflugzeuge-helikopter/dassault-fuehrt-bei-deutsch-franzoesischer-fighter-entwicklung/756226
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #144 on: July 04, 2018, 05:51:45 am »
A new Dassault video with footage from 3:10 onwards of a new fighter design:



You can see why they have the lead of the project, when compared to what Airbus had come up with...

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #145 on: July 04, 2018, 06:12:01 am »
Screenshot. Looks like all other '6th Gen' concepts...

Old Marcel used to pay such attention to tails too.
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #146 on: July 04, 2018, 12:16:16 pm »
Pretty neat

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #147 on: July 04, 2018, 01:01:37 pm »
Two-seater? French pilot, German nav I guess!
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #148 on: July 04, 2018, 01:26:57 pm »
Apart from the lack of tail fins and LEVCONs the basic configuration isn't actually a million miles removed from some of the earlier Airbus concepts.

Might turn out to be generic though.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #149 on: July 04, 2018, 01:35:06 pm »
I would think so. Concept art rather than a real design. Most 6th Gen fighter concepts are similar. Seems everyone is setting out on the same design. I hope something more interesting comes along.
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #150 on: July 04, 2018, 01:46:30 pm »
A new Dassault video with footage from 3:10 onwards of a new fighter design:



You can see why they have the lead of the project, when compared to what Airbus had come up with...
Thanks a (very big, big, big, big, …) lot mrmalaya ;)

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #151 on: July 04, 2018, 10:46:00 pm »
If somebody has this speech in video, it could be interesting for the next part of this topic...

Don't know if it is, what you're looking for ....
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #152 on: July 04, 2018, 11:00:23 pm »
Screenshot. Looks like all other '6th Gen' concepts...

Old Marcel used to pay such attention to tails too.
Layout/Planform like PAKFA without tails?



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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #153 on: July 05, 2018, 02:10:59 am »
Marcel Dassault might have liked it with them!
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #154 on: July 05, 2018, 03:06:46 am »
It might well be a generic placeholder, but it is being pushed by Dassault in the same way as their UCAV and there is now a project for it with no competitor design. In that sense, it is ahead of the what we have seen from the US, because it won't consigned to history by losing the competition.

If you want exciting placeholder designs, then the BAE ones flateric posted in the FCAS thread are certainly different....

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #155 on: July 05, 2018, 03:19:11 am »
Don't know if it is, what you're looking for ....
I had in mind this part of the von der Leyen's speech :
Quote
Treibende Kraft bei der Entwicklung des neues Jets wird Frankreich sein, wie von der Leyen ankündigte

But thanks for your search :)

Edit :

Would it be possible (when, and if, you'll have available time) to have a 3 views of the project plane (maybe more from the "photo" than from the "drawings", because there are little differences) ;)

Edit 2 : the video on the Dassault webpage :

https://www.dassault-aviation.tv/Wings%20for%20Europe-1637.html

I am very astonished to see that it was from 03.05.2018. Nobobdy had shown it in the other french aviation websites, in the french aviation newspapers (in particular in Air & Cosmos weekly) or in the other french media :o
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 03:51:13 am by Deltafan »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #156 on: July 05, 2018, 05:56:40 am »
I got it as a hot tip from a French Journalist on KeyPublishing forum.

It will be interesting to see how SAAB and BAE address the issue of future fighters if the discussions bear fruit.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #157 on: July 05, 2018, 06:26:05 am »
frankely speaking, it is hard to find ‘creativity’ as a game changer

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #158 on: July 05, 2018, 07:47:03 am »
...
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stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #159 on: July 05, 2018, 07:59:14 am »
Marcel Dassault might have liked it with them!

So true ! Yet you have no idea, and here's the reason why... both Mirage IV-01 (in 1959) and Mirage 2000-01 (1978) had very ugly vertical tails. Marcel Dassault felt that was wrong, so in both case, he asked the engineers to redesign it. No kidding.
The concept shown had no tail whatsoever, so Marcel Dassault engineers would sight in relieve - "no tail - no need to redesign it entirely just to please the boss taste for aesthetics !"   ;D ;D ;D

The cockpit screams "Rafale" but everything else smells "stealth" as in F-22, T-50, and J-20...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 08:02:08 am by Archibald »
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #160 on: July 05, 2018, 08:06:50 am »
The cockpit and perhaps the nose...?

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #161 on: July 05, 2018, 08:13:19 am »
The cockpit and perhaps the nose...?

From certain angles the nose on this new design look's a lot like the Rafael's nose.  Are Dassault's engineer's getting too conservative in designing new fighters and sticking to what they already know?

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #162 on: July 05, 2018, 08:45:23 am »
The cockpit and perhaps the nose...?

From certain angles the nose on this new design look's a lot like the Rafael's nose.  Are Dassault's engineer's getting too conservative in designing new fighters and sticking to what they already know?

Rafael is a Israeli defence company. Nothing to do with a French conservative aircraft manufacturer.
Oh yes...Conservatives, they are already very much in a way  ;D
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 08:51:25 am by galgot »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #163 on: July 05, 2018, 10:43:19 am »
Well not to want to second guess the situation, but the battles I have with older auto-correct when I type Rafale (Rafael), or Taranis (Tarnish), might explain that post.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #164 on: July 05, 2018, 10:50:14 am »
Sorry about the slight mix up, it was my auto spell checker to blame for that error.  :-[

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #165 on: July 05, 2018, 12:48:44 pm »
George Walker Bush famously become "Le buisson marcheur de George" that is "George's walking bush" thanks to an extremely stpid autocorrect software (bangs head against a wall)
Quote
Are Dassault's engineer's getting too conservative in designing new fighters and sticking to what they already know?

this is a little silly. "If it works, don't change it". Dassault has a long standing tradition like this. It worked pretty well for the company since 1949 and the first Ouragan. In fact all 5000 combat jets they build can be linked to each others, all the way from Ouragan to Rafale, including Mirage, Mystère, and Etendard. By 1956 the SMB-2, Mirage III-01 and Etendard IV-A were the same basic fuselage, only with different wings or air intakes. The rear fuselage with the Atar inside was essentially the same.

So yes, they are conservative, but for good reasons  ;)
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #166 on: July 05, 2018, 01:01:57 pm »
I got it as a hot tip from a French Journalist on KeyPublishing forum.
Thanks

I searched yesterday on Keypublishing but I did not find anything.

I searched today after your answer and I found the post of halloweene. Do you know from what journal he is ?

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #167 on: July 05, 2018, 03:20:00 pm »
Quote
So yes, they are conservative, but for good reasons 

Not so much when you have a product life spanning 3 to 4 decades. Initially, that is acceptabłe but after it is no more.

I have specific example in mind if you push me.

Airframe design time will be drastically down. It is of the utmost importance that any design leader should keep that in mind.

 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 03:23:05 pm by TomcatViP »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #168 on: July 06, 2018, 01:52:47 am »
To me, their design is not pure high-end fighter

they have more focus on stealth, ISR, cruise, commanding of UCAV or other asset

rather than conventional dog-fight or missile-truck BVR missions.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #169 on: July 06, 2018, 02:25:59 am »
For sure I wouldn't expect them to design a pure high-end fighter only.
All this is dictated by the money you can put in it. France and Germany are not going to finance a specialized F-22 or J-20 class/size fighter, which I even doubt would be very useful if they could.
Suppose they are aiming at a compromise capable of doing multiples things, like Rafale is.
Configuration wise, i'm glad not to see another F-35ish clone like some Chinese, Korean, turkish or japanese projects.
Stealth shaping tend to make them all look the same tho... :/
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 02:33:07 am by galgot »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #170 on: July 06, 2018, 02:57:16 am »
I certainly wouldn't expect any European/British/Swedish ( yes I know they are all European in one sense) aircraft to look like a LM product.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #171 on: July 12, 2018, 01:24:42 am »
First attempt for a provisional 3-view, clues and corrections welcome.
For those of you, who want to change the drawing by themselves, the
svg-file is attached, too.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 03:52:34 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #172 on: July 12, 2018, 01:34:16 am »
First attempt for a provisional 3-view, clues and corrections welcome.
For those of you, who want to change the drawing by themselves, the
svg-file is attached, too, just change the suffix .txt to .svg (svg-files aren't
allowed as attachements).

Looking good so far Jemiba,  I notice that you have designed the fighter to have the EOTS as standard.  I take it that all future fighters from the 6th generation will have such a system as standard thus removing the need for anymore external targeting pods.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #173 on: July 12, 2018, 02:08:10 am »
First attempt for a provisional 3-view, clues and corrections welcome.
For those of you, who want to change the drawing by themselves, the
svg-file is attached, too, just change the suffix .txt to .svg (svg-files aren't
allowed as attachements).

thx for your effort for this drawing

width of body including inlet seems to be too narrow compared to width of lex and nose

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #174 on: July 12, 2018, 03:02:15 am »
Nice Jemiba ! :°
I think the nose edge is a straight line. see.
Also the funny thing , to have less angles difference, that LERX outer edge would logically be paralel to the nose edge...
It's not.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #175 on: July 12, 2018, 03:53:18 am »
I added SVG as a supported format. Preview doesn't look right however, at least on this one.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 03:58:56 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #176 on: July 12, 2018, 10:20:02 am »
Second attempt:
I think the nose edge is a straight line. see.
Also the funny thing , to have less angles difference, that LERX outer edge would logically be paralel to the nose edge...
It's not.

You're certainly right, changed.
That change additionally widened fuselage and inlets, although only very slightly.
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #178 on: July 12, 2018, 02:26:12 pm »
First attempt for a provisional 3-view
Second attempt:
Thanks a lot Jemiba. You are the best, once more again ;)

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #179 on: July 12, 2018, 03:17:47 pm »
Thicker lines...
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 03:24:00 pm by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #180 on: July 12, 2018, 11:49:07 pm »
Front View
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 04:55:29 am by flateric »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #181 on: July 13, 2018, 04:46:38 am »
Great efforts at 3 views. Thanks.
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #182 on: July 14, 2018, 12:49:51 pm »
Great but this model is what Houdini could do best: a stealth blanket only to hide from the press the embarrassing decade of BS from the EU industry ("stealth is dead", "there would be no more wars but with spear handed savages" (well we had the savages for sure), "Drones are only gadgets")...
I call this aircraft the dodge fighter because it allow everyone to look sideway while we are committing the future generation to pay for to an huge load of money  at the higher risks ever seen on the market.


If you are skeptical, look at the side wall of the from section that without rudder will induce a divergent beta for very small angles.

This thing has Rafale (=M2k) wings, Rafale stylized faceted front section and no tail without any inherent search for induced stability. As a fun factor it has LEVCoN's and f-23 hype (without any apparent understanding if the usefulness of this aero configuration).

Up to to you to make your own informed opinion....
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 01:07:31 pm by TomcatViP »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #183 on: July 14, 2018, 05:28:49 pm »
Well…

-Very first known drawing of the future MD 550 (picture 1)

-MD 550 in service... (picture 2)

Maybe the final shape will not be like the first picture (trick, BS and press or not)... What a scoop...

-Rafale had bad directions too... (picture 3)

--Dassaut studies the next french fighter since decades, yes, with stealth, yes, and pilot, yes, with almost no money (except for the UAV Ducs and the NEURON), yes... (pictures 4 and 5)


For my own I am interested in the successor of the Rafale since decades... And all that I can find about this, here or elsewhere, is interesting for me. But to know the final shape of the plane, I'll do like everyone : wait and see... And only then I will say what was exact or not, whatever anyone else said/says/will say.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 06:07:27 pm by Deltafan »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #184 on: July 22, 2018, 07:15:21 am »
According to an interview of Mr. Trappier, CEO of Dassault :

Quote
Quant au SCAF, M. Trappier a prévenu qu’il n’y avait, pour le moment, aucune « maquette précise et arbitrée », étant donné que les besoins opérationnels et les spécifications sont en cours de définition. « Et même s’il y en avait une, je pense qu’on garderait une certaine confidentialité, puisqu’on a des concurrents, y compris en Europe, du moins en Grande-Bretagne

Translation attempt :

Quote
There is, currently, no accurate and arbitrated model of the SCAF, because operational requirements and spécifications are not yet fully defined. And even if, we would keep a certain confidentiality, since we have competitors.

http://www.opex360.com/2018/07/20/pdg-de-dassault-aviation-charrie-britanniques-projet-de-nouvel-avion-de-combat/


Well, I can only say that the original video has been removed from the Dassault Aviation official website...

https://www.dassault-aviation.tv/Wings%20for%20Europe-1636.html

Perhaps :

-Broadcasting of the video was a mistake (and it's too late because we can see it now all around the web and in a lot of medias)

-Broadcasting of the video was a disinformation because the real project is very different of what showed the video...

To be continued...

Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #185 on: July 22, 2018, 09:34:27 am »
Quote
There is, currently, no accurate and arbitrated model of the SCAF, because operational requirements and spécifications are not yet fully defined.

Well at the moment, neither France nor Germany has actually contracted Dassault or Airbus to work on this so you can judge whether they've made substantial progress from spending IRAD monies over the last year...

Interesting that Dassault went tailless whilst Airbus and BAES have gone with tailed concepts. Cost/risk/benefit trade-off to be had there.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #186 on: July 22, 2018, 11:24:18 am »
Well, about this, another french article :

https://www.lopinion.fr/blog/secret-defense/scaf-va-etre-presente-president-macron-actualise-157095

Translation attempt :

Quote
According to our information, a working group will shortly present its "roadmap" to President Macron on the Franco-German SCAF (Future Combat Air System).
This "group", gathering specialists from the General Directorate of Armament (DGA) and various staffs (Armed Forces, Air Force, Navy), is working on a classified secret-defense file. Once this one validated politically, the industrialists will join this team. Then it will be the turn of the Germans, state and industrial. A "steering structure" will be put in place "before the end of the year", which should lead to the ordering of a" demonstrator"

We'll see at the end of the year if this article was right…


Otherwise, for my own, if the plane has Thrust Vector Control, I guess that the experience of MBB with the X-31 could be very helpful…


To be continued...
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 11:42:54 am by Deltafan »

Offline galgot

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #187 on: July 31, 2018, 05:41:27 am »
Spend some time studying the few available images as I really like the shape of this thing.
Took the liberty to modify jemiba’s drawing and post the result here.
I think the engines are more widely spaced (not by much) , the wing is something like between a diamond and double-delta with lerx. Also the nose is very much like a bird beak. Added the canopy frames, but don't know if they should be , or if they are just geometry lines (beziers ?) on the CAD images.
Still , I don’t really understand the engines pipes geometry .
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 12:57:59 pm by galgot »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #188 on: July 31, 2018, 10:54:58 am »
The inlets ducts goes inward to the center , so i suspect eventual weapon bays to be on fuselage side on these flat faces, after the inlets turns ?
Or in the space between the engines, before these ducts turns ? Also the wings are quite high  :



One image shows a very flat underside too :



Even more so that the bottom edge of the space between the engines seems to go down to fit a flat under fuselage surface :



Yes, radome is very small, even by "rafale standard" ;) Wonder if they had the same carrier landing view requirement in mind as the Rafale...
Note also there seems to be "cheek" antennas on the nose sides. So maybe a distributed antennas radar system.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 11:00:08 am by galgot »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #189 on: August 01, 2018, 10:16:04 am »
Thanks for your work galgot

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #190 on: August 01, 2018, 10:39:15 am »
Great, thank you !
About the canopy frames, I'm not sure, too. If there are frames, it really could be, or at least would
look like a two-seater. But the middle line of the "windshield frame"touches the most forward line.
The F-35 has a frame, the F-22 not ...
But apart from that uncertainty, you're much closer to the "real thing", than me !
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Trident

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #191 on: August 01, 2018, 11:29:07 am »
The F-35 frame is an internal brace supporting the canopy from inside. A similar solution might be intended on this concept.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #192 on: August 03, 2018, 01:47:56 pm »
Galgot - regarding boattail design...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #193 on: August 03, 2018, 02:43:26 pm »
Indeed , visible there too. That makes the under fuselage very flat.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #194 on: August 18, 2018, 07:55:32 am »
Well, I can only say that the original video has been removed from the Dassault Aviation official website...
My memory may work bad but AFAIR when last time I saw it at Dassault TV site I noticed that it was uploaded on March 2018.
WaybackMachine tricks are not working with site dynamic engine.
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #195 on: August 18, 2018, 02:47:07 pm »
Well, I can only say that the original video has been removed from the Dassault Aviation official website...
My memory may work bad but AFAIR when last time I saw it at Dassault TV site I noticed that it was uploaded on March 2018.
WaybackMachine tricks are not working with site dynamic engine.
Each time (from 04.07.2018) that I saw the video on its page of Dassault's WebTV, the wrote date was : 3 May 2018.

a few days later (after the video began to appear in a lot of websites and medias), the webpage on Dassault's WebTV was still there, but the video was missing.

a few days later again, even the webpage was missing from Dassault's WebTV and the link gave/gives directly the homepage of Dassault Aviation WebTV.


Till today, the older no-Dassault webpage that I found (AsianDefence) with the video gave/gives the date : 3 May 2018  (YouTube : 4 May 2018)



That's all I know... :-\                                                                                                       
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 02:54:57 pm by Deltafan »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #196 on: August 22, 2018, 12:44:35 pm »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #197 on: August 22, 2018, 04:18:35 pm »
"Attrition has become a factor"

General Lanata

Also regarding the F-35 operational history that has already began in Israel despite the denial of Mr Noguier of Airbus:
Quote
[Chief of Staff Gen. David] Goldfein said he’s spoken with F-35 pilots in Italy and Israel—Israel has already used the F-35 in combat—and “what they’re telling me is, operationally, the airplane is absolutely magnificent.”
  A Quote from Def Aerospace (a web site heavily relying on Airbus). It is sad to see that as a strategist, he might have missed this.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/195471/us-air-force-chief-%E2%80%9Ccould-not-be-happier%E2%80%9D-with-f_35.html


Last but not least, It's appreciable how the DGA (represented here by Miss Laurent) is the one expressing the least complacent appreciation of the situation (coupled by the Air force financial realism), notably that of their main vector.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 06:05:13 am by TomcatViP »

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Offline galgot

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #199 on: October 22, 2018, 04:26:55 am »
:))
And with a carrier pict behind...

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #201 on: October 22, 2018, 05:41:40 am »
Will be interesting to see what it finally looks like.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #202 on: October 22, 2018, 09:43:54 am »
From what's visible so far, chances are it'll look exactly like the Dassault CG images released to date.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #203 on: October 22, 2018, 03:38:15 pm »
It looks a bit like the early RN experiments, where they used RAM netting....

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #204 on: October 22, 2018, 04:13:46 pm »
It looks a bit like the early RN experiments, where they used RAM netting....

Well if we scale it up from 1/10th, it probably use some kind of Junker corrugated skin too. Probably the German side.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 05:42:33 pm by TomcatViP »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #205 on: October 22, 2018, 04:36:48 pm »
Drums!

https://twitter.com/xaviervav/status/1054330106339123203?s=19
Thanks a lot :)


From what's visible so far, chances are it'll look exactly like the Dassault CG images released to date.
I think so too.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 05:16:03 pm by Deltafan »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #206 on: October 23, 2018, 01:23:43 am »
Unwrapped.

Intake splitters, not DSI, notable.

Seems a bit 80s to me - angular, intake under LERX for high AoA (and so no DSI?).

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #207 on: October 23, 2018, 02:36:12 am »
Another 80s throwback - put it on a ship.

Didn't do Rafale any har...er...oh.

Neuron wingspan 12.5m/41ft; this NGF-N seems a fair bit bigger. So you need a big ship, especially if wings don't fold.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 02:44:12 am by Harrier »
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #208 on: October 23, 2018, 02:46:14 am »
More
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 02:49:06 am by Harrier »
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Offline galgot

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #209 on: October 23, 2018, 04:11:56 am »
Wow I know it's just a model and configuration certainly will change , but so far I love the look . Specially that view .
Seems to be about a Rafale size, which doesn't have folding wings, so no need of a bigger ship than CdG.
Yes, no DSI, these are for Chinese fanboys. And no fins, so modern ;p !! Well at least it doesn't have a pelican head :D
Sorry couldn't help... love you Brits.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #210 on: October 23, 2018, 04:19:40 am »
The whole model is so devoid of details that one wonders how accurate even the basic things like dimensions of wings/engines/intakes/cockpit are, compared to the rest of the plane. Basically, it seems very, very pointless to even discuss such a model in detail. Aside from discussions of general planform choice, no-tails choice, number of engines choice etc.
www.youtube.com/c/binkovsbattlegrounds - military analysis videos

Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #211 on: October 23, 2018, 04:44:49 am »
Sacre bleu, will people stop nicking my doodle pad already?

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #212 on: October 23, 2018, 04:52:03 am »
Thanks for the new photos, Harrier and Galgot.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #213 on: October 23, 2018, 04:57:57 am »
Not mine , I re-posted one of Harrier's photos cause I love that angle ,
Thanks Harrier :)

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #214 on: October 23, 2018, 05:00:31 am »
What is the gull-winged mockup on the left?

And a suggestion to why such large wing: collapsible vertical tails.

Also notice that it seems to have asymmetrical wing design what suggest two different versions: the pointy for AdlA (left wing) and the larger one for the Marine (with collapsible verticals?)

At last it seems that this thing is in the expo to really display something  :D
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 05:08:46 am by TomcatViP »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #215 on: October 23, 2018, 05:10:33 am »
Also notice that it seems to have asymmetrical wing design what suggest two different versions: the pointy for AdlA (left wing) and the larger one for the Marine (with collapsible verticals?)
i Don't agree
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 05:16:14 am by Deltafan »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #216 on: October 23, 2018, 05:23:46 am »
well either the pictures have been doctored, either we have an optical anomaly...

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #217 on: October 23, 2018, 05:36:38 am »
Either it's just an effect of perspective...

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #218 on: October 23, 2018, 06:10:10 am »
Or it could be a morphing wing. Which would be very interesting indeed.
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #219 on: October 23, 2018, 06:25:39 am »

‘Gull winged mockup’ is the UCAS formally known as UK-FR.
Why such a large wing? Probably due to the carrier approach speed requirement.
Both wings are the same but the tip being aligned with the inboard highly swept section, the wing thickness and possibly the usual couple of degrees of wing twist can make them look different.

Offline galgot

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #220 on: October 23, 2018, 06:33:46 am »
I think it's just an effect of the perspective really.
Photographing a model of this size (seems like 80cm/1m long) from this distance gives this kind of while angle distortion.
The left wing looks pointy cause the wing tip has an swept angle, and also because the wing tips has a bit of negative incidence (visible on the front view posted by deltafan, see how the tips goes down a bit). so from that camera angle , the left wing leading edge + wing tip look like a straight line.

Btw, the fact that this wing tip negative incidence is reproduced indicate that even if devoid of any surface details , the model is very precise shapewise.

edit: @JeffTracy, yes wing twist :)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 06:36:44 am by galgot »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #221 on: October 23, 2018, 07:31:28 am »
Yes I do agree. Looking at the wing planform shadows confirms that the model could be indeed symmetrical.

Any good picture of the gull-winged UCAS?

Offline sferrin

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #222 on: October 23, 2018, 07:43:35 am »
Sacre bleu, will people stop nicking my doodle pad already?

I think that happens a lot.  Went on about Pershing II being a potential strategic antiship missile for defense of the US back in the 90s on USENET.  Now China has their DF-21. . . :P  Obviously a coincidence, and yes, I know you were kidding.  ;)
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #223 on: October 23, 2018, 07:51:53 am »
The whole model is so devoid of details that one wonders how accurate even the basic things like dimensions of wings/engines/intakes/cockpit are, compared to the rest of the plane. Basically, it seems very, very pointless to even discuss such a model in detail. Aside from discussions of general planform choice, no-tails choice, number of engines choice etc.

I'm pretty sure they omitted a tail radar from the simplistic model, too. Likewise, no hint of DIRCM.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #224 on: October 23, 2018, 08:03:33 am »
Or it could be a morphing wing. Which would be very interesting indeed.
That would explain the silver "Flight of the Navigator" ship look to the model  ;)

Nice shape anyway!

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #225 on: October 23, 2018, 08:23:14 am »
It is unfortunate that the NGF photo next to the nEUROn taking off is not taken closer, to better see if the engines are equipped with the TVC :-\

Edit : Is there not a little fin under the rear of each engine ? ???
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 09:51:07 am by Deltafan »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #227 on: October 23, 2018, 10:47:52 am »
Intake splitters, not DSI, notable.

Seems a bit 80s to me - angular, intake under LERX for high AoA (and so no DSI?).

Galgot's rebuke is a bit harsh, but while DSI certainly is an elegant solution it does (as you say) have to integrate well with the rest of your configuration, so it's not a universally suitable choice.

The whole model is so devoid of details that one wonders how accurate even the basic things like dimensions of wings/engines/intakes/cockpit are, compared to the rest of the plane. Basically, it seems very, very pointless to even discuss such a model in detail. Aside from discussions of general planform choice, no-tails choice, number of engines choice etc.

Could be a wind tunnel model?

edit: @JeffTracy, yes wing twist :)

Yup, it's caused by the conical camber of the wing bending the tip of the far side wing out of sight in some photos.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #228 on: October 23, 2018, 10:52:15 am »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #229 on: October 23, 2018, 11:59:10 am »
I think they just copied the Fairey Delta again, what with the 'uppy-over' intakes  :o ;D
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #230 on: October 23, 2018, 12:27:50 pm »
And I thought they had copied the German Horten Ho 229 because there was no horizontal or vertical fin ::) ;)

« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 12:30:47 pm by Deltafan »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #231 on: October 24, 2018, 06:00:07 am »
Dassault New Generation Fighter

http://aviationweek.com/defense/dassault-unveils-new-gen-fighter-mockup?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20181024_AW-05_69&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1&utm_rid=CPEN1000000230026&utm_campaign=17082&utm_medium=email&elq2=35045a76796d4f4daac156a607613e77

Quote
LYON, France—At the Euronaval show in Paris, Dassault is exhibiting a small-scale model of the “New-Generation Fighter” (NGF) France and Germany intend to build as a successor to the Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon.

The twin-engine, crewed aircraft would not have a vertical empennage, to enhance stealth. Engine air intakes would be rectangular. The model is consistent with the shapes appearing in a video Dassault issued at the ILA Berlin air show last April.

The NGF name was devised to clarify the identity of the future jet, a Dassault spokesperson says. The future combat air system (FCAS) Dassault is studying with Airbus has a confusing name, as it could refer to the aircraft and the “system of systems” (including UAVs, air tankers, Awacs and ground stations) it will be part of. FCAS also was the designation of a stalled project between France and the UK. Now NGF is the acronym for the aircraft and FCAS for the system of systems, the spokesperson emphasizes.
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Offline FighterJock

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #232 on: October 24, 2018, 07:56:51 am »
Does this point towards the use of thrust vectoring nozzles?

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #233 on: October 24, 2018, 09:47:33 am »
 http://aviationweek.com/defense/dassault-unveils-new-gen-fighter-mockup

The picture with the article shows the very flat underside well.

At any AoA I think strong vortices will come off the edge of it and into the intakes.

Maybe this 'Franco-French' model is not too serious.
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Offline djfawcett

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #234 on: October 24, 2018, 11:10:08 am »
I believe that we can pretty much rest assured that Dassault is not going to display a high fidelity model of the 6th generation concept at a naval convention for all the world to see.  What they would display is a configuration that may be representative of what is actually "behind the closed door."

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #235 on: October 24, 2018, 11:21:40 am »
Trappier said exactly that several months ago.
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Offline NUSNA_Moebius

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #236 on: October 24, 2018, 02:29:07 pm »
Can Germany and France together even afford it?  Few planes = high price = no economy of scale.  It doesn't seem like a worthwhile endeavor unless they commit to bare minimum 300 or 400 airframes. 

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #237 on: October 24, 2018, 09:57:03 pm »
That's a rhetoric question. Anyway cooperative effort has more chances than separate ones.
Airbus' Enders constantly promotes all-European cooperation for FCAS to not to split markets for basically the same final product but UK (UK MoD in fact) only interested to be a leader in such a project that will not happen with current France-Germany endeavor where Dassault plays a leading role.
At least this is my understanding.
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #238 on: October 24, 2018, 10:11:17 pm »
The flat underside refers more to modular payload and UCAS carriage to me. That's why I was asking what was the gull-winged mockup displayed in front of the model.

It's pretty sure at this stage that the concept comes with a range of additional  flying systems. So the overall cost question would be more acute than only looking at the manned component. I mean, it can very quickly become the tree hiding the forest.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 10:41:30 pm by TomcatViP »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #239 on: October 24, 2018, 11:49:39 pm »
It was known long time ago that manned component (that Dassault now call NGF) just a part of FCAS SoS.
FCAS SoS concept first appeared within ETAP program back in 00s.

Flat belly is good for LO and carrying conformal stuff, but has nothing to do with FCAS UCAS model in front of NGF model.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 11:55:12 pm by flateric »
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #240 on: October 25, 2018, 12:13:00 am »
my remark was more to illustrate the buddy carrying concept that might have influenced the choice of a full flat bottom.  BUt still, a picture of the UCAS bird displayed that day would be great.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #241 on: October 25, 2018, 12:21:44 am »
but UK (UK MoD in fact) only interested to be a leader in such a project that will not happen with current France-Germany endeavor where Dassault plays a leading role.

Why would anyone be interested in paying Dassault billions of euros for the privilege of having their technology and IP stolen, and destroying their indigenous industrial capability, and having no return on investment. Unless you're desparate/don't have the capability yourself, this isn't a good idea.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #242 on: October 25, 2018, 01:53:51 am »
but UK (UK MoD in fact) only interested to be a leader in such a project that will not happen with current France-Germany endeavor where Dassault plays a leading role.

Why would anyone be interested in paying Dassault billions of euros for the privilege of having their technology and IP stolen, and destroying their indigenous industrial capability, and having no return on investment. Unless you're desparate/don't have the capability yourself, this isn't a good idea.

And lets face it, Anders was happy to let Dassault take the lead because Airbus lacks the experience to lead on this programme. And in the long-term, Anders' plan is a European-wide Airbus Military division. He would love to acquire Dassault under his wing and this programme is the right political tool to convince the governments to sign off on such a deal.

Adding BAE Systems to NGF would be a major complicating factor in that they would demand a sizable production share and doubtless would have their own design opinions, plus we don't know how much of BAE's recent technology advances are covered by the same kind of US export restrictions that have made things difficult for Japan's decision. It also opens up the chance of a Rolls-Royce and MTU bidding war for the engines too.

Of course this is a naval show, but its interesting that Dassault are pushing NGF as a naval fighter. Perhaps its just coincidence that Euronaval is the first big opportunity for Dassault to make a public reveal of NGF, but I wonder whether the Germans would be prepared to accept any design compromises that might arise from designing for naval operations. However, it does show that France is willing to stump up the Euros if they are prepared to develop their own naval version (assuming the export market in 2035 for carrier fighters is still tiny).

Seeing this makes me slightly sad that we didn't go for cats on the Queen Elizabeths, but I guess even if we had, the aircraft of choice would have been the F-35C anyway.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #243 on: October 25, 2018, 03:43:12 am »
but UK (UK MoD in fact) only interested to be a leader in such a project that will not happen with current France-Germany endeavor where Dassault plays a leading role.

Why would anyone be interested in paying Dassault billions of euros for the privilege of having their technology and IP stolen, and destroying their indigenous industrial capability, and having no return on investment. Unless you're desparate/don't have the capability yourself, this isn't a good idea.

And lets face it, Anders was happy to let Dassault take the lead because Airbus lacks the experience to lead on this programme. And in the long-term, Anders' plan is a European-wide Airbus Military division. He would love to acquire Dassault under his wing and this programme is the right political tool to convince the governments to sign off on such a deal.

Adding BAE Systems to NGF would be a major complicating factor in that they would demand a sizable production share and doubtless would have their own design opinions, plus we don't know how much of BAE's recent technology advances are covered by the same kind of US export restrictions that have made things difficult for Japan's decision. It also opens up the chance of a Rolls-Royce and MTU bidding war for the engines too.

Of course this is a naval show, but its interesting that Dassault are pushing NGF as a naval fighter. Perhaps its just coincidence that Euronaval is the first big opportunity for Dassault to make a public reveal of NGF, but I wonder whether the Germans would be prepared to accept any design compromises that might arise from designing for naval operations. However, it does show that France is willing to stump up the Euros if they are prepared to develop their own naval version (assuming the export market in 2035 for carrier fighters is still tiny).

Seeing this makes me slightly sad that we didn't go for cats on the Queen Elizabeths, but I guess even if we had, the aircraft of choice would have been the F-35C anyway.

Exactly, moreover they shot themselves in the foot with the A-400 mess, showing clearly to the politics they have no experience to manage a big military program. Now they understand they need to get the experience from someone.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #244 on: October 25, 2018, 05:51:33 am »
Can Germany and France together even afford it?  Few planes = high price = no economy of scale.  It doesn't seem like a worthwhile endeavor unless they commit to bare minimum 300 or 400 airframes.
Good question. And maybe "Stealth technology" will be obsolete in 2035...

Otherwise, to avoid the mistakes of the A-400, and too many special requests of too many participants in the program, Germany and France voluntarily decided to limit the program to two participants until the end of its definition. It will be a saving of time and money. Only after other countries can participate in the program, but on the basis of what has already been decided by the German and French partners. If there are new participants, they will always be able to add their own options to the system (like, for example, Israel with the F-35).

But 2035 is far away. And a lot of things can change by then, including the existence of this Franco-German project ...

Then, To be continued...
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 05:55:06 am by Deltafan »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #245 on: October 25, 2018, 07:52:06 am »
my remark was more to illustrate the buddy carrying concept that might have influenced the choice of a full flat bottom.  BUt still, a picture of the UCAS bird displayed that day would be great.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 07:53:48 am by flateric »
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Offline NUSNA_Moebius

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #246 on: October 25, 2018, 08:25:19 am »
That's a rhetoric question. Anyway cooperative effort has more chances than separate ones.
Airbus' Enders constantly promotes all-European cooperation for FCAS to not to split markets for basically the same final product but UK (UK MoD in fact) only interested to be a leader in such a project that will not happen with current France-Germany endeavor where Dassault plays a leading role.
At least this is my understanding.

It was a legit question.  There is an economy of scale in having a large military budget that does require a good bit % of GDP.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #247 on: October 25, 2018, 09:09:44 am »
Thank you Flateric. Seems I have been played by the weird contour of it.  :o :-[
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 09:14:34 am by TomcatViP »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #248 on: October 25, 2018, 11:55:45 am »
Thank you Flateric. Seems I have been played by the weird contour of it.  :o :-[

Its just a new model of Neuron.


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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #250 on: October 25, 2018, 05:17:47 pm »
A 10'52" video on Euronaval. NGF closer from 1'13" to 1'41".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPfI2bPMObo&feature=youtu.be

We can see now the end of the engines.


« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 05:27:34 pm by Deltafan »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #251 on: October 25, 2018, 05:20:00 pm »
Other closer photos :

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #252 on: October 25, 2018, 06:21:32 pm »
Bit of of an odd surprise from Belgium, as well as buying F-35's they are going to invest over 360 million Euros into the F/G project....

Quote
Of the 647 million euros left by the government to purchase the F-35, 369 million goes to the development of fighter aircraft of the next generation. That says the spokesperson of Prime Minister Charles Michel (MR).

The government decided Thursday 34 F-35s to buy, accounting for about 4 billion euros. This leaves them 647 million euros under what they first had set. Part of the money that she is saving now goes to a French-German program for the development of a new European fighter plane

https://www.tijd.be/politiek-economie/belgie-algemeen/369-miljoen-voor-gevechtsvliegtuig-volgende-generatie/10063051

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #253 on: October 26, 2018, 01:06:10 am »
347M$ just as a gesture ?   More likely that the Belgian industry that has links across the border with their French counterpart can't be left aside without a waste of already sparse public money.

Anyhow, at the end is seems that contrary to some martial declarations and experts's indignation, Belgium managed to draw some honey from both pots.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #254 on: October 26, 2018, 01:11:14 am »
Might be sensible if there is a practical design to get work share. If not, likely to be eaten up by 'studies'.

Remember the wooing of Belgium over Rafale, once it had become seen as a 'black hole for billions'? They were wise that time.
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #255 on: October 26, 2018, 05:42:20 am »
.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #256 on: October 26, 2018, 05:50:39 am »
As far as I remember, according to the French Minister of Defense, Belgium could be part of the SCAF program, only if they choose Rafale…

Probably more about this soon...

Otherwise, not everyone can be as cheap as the F-35 ::)


Remember the wooing of Belgium over Rafale, once it had become seen as a 'black hole for billions'? They were wise that time.

Quote
As the largest and most expensive military program, the F-35 is the subject of much scrutiny and criticism in the U.S. and in other countries.[18] In 2013 and 2014, critics argued that the plane was "plagued with design flaws", with many blaming the procurement process in which Lockheed was allowed "to design, test, and produce the F-35 all at the same time, instead of… [identifying and fixing] defects before firing up its production line".[18] By 2014, the program was "$163 billion over budget [and] seven years behind schedule".[19] Critics also contend that the program's high sunk costs and political momentum make it "too big to kill".[20]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II

See you in 5, 10, 15, 20 and over, to see the satisfaction of Belgium (and others) on the availability and cost of operating the cheap F-35 ;)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 06:22:16 am by Deltafan »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #258 on: October 26, 2018, 06:38:21 am »
As far as I remember, according to the French Minister of Defense, Belgium could be part of the SCAF program, only if they choose Rafale…

Probably more about this soon...

Otherwise, not everyone can be as cheap as the F-35 ::)


Remember the wooing of Belgium over Rafale, once it had become seen as a 'black hole for billions'? They were wise that time.

Quote
As the largest and most expensive military program, the F-35 is the subject of much scrutiny and criticism in the U.S. and in other countries.[18] In 2013 and 2014, critics argued that the plane was "plagued with design flaws", with many blaming the procurement process in which Lockheed was allowed "to design, test, and produce the F-35 all at the same time, instead of… [identifying and fixing] defects before firing up its production line".[18] By 2014, the program was "$163 billion over budget [and] seven years behind schedule".[19] Critics also contend that the program's high sunk costs and political momentum make it "too big to kill".[20]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II

See you in 5, 10, 15, 20 and over, to see the satisfaction of Belgium (and others) on the availability and cost of operating the cheap F-35 ;)

No worries for F-35, they have clients for pouring "billions of  $ euros for the privilege of having their technology and IP stolen, and destroying their indigenous industrial capability, and having no return on investment."

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #259 on: October 28, 2018, 04:30:42 am »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #260 on: October 28, 2018, 04:38:38 am »
Otherwise, the four "ways" for the nozzles…


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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #261 on: October 28, 2018, 05:27:48 am »
Nozzles on renderings from Wings for Europe roll are all the same. Look carefully.
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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #262 on: October 28, 2018, 05:58:20 am »
You're right, they are much more alike than I originally thought ???, even if they do not seem completely identical.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 06:00:58 am by Deltafan »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #264 on: October 28, 2018, 11:03:06 am »
Thanks for the link Harrier.

Well, as said before…

But 2035 is far away. And a lot of things can change by then, including the existence of this Franco-German project ...
Then, To be continued...
Maybe, not only 2035, but 2019 is far away ::)

To be continued...

Edit : The reference article by Der Spiegel (in German) :
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/frankreich-droht-deutschland-mit-ausstieg-aus-kampfjet-projekt-a-1235276.html
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 03:34:23 pm by Deltafan »

Offline Hood

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #265 on: October 29, 2018, 02:33:12 am »
Perhaps a bit of a storm in a teacup.
Of course Dassault wants exports, its the only way to offset some of the high R&D costs given the Franco-German fleets are likely to be fairly small if no other European nations join the programme.
How serious is Germany in its moral stand? They don't seem to have stopped potential Typhoon exports to various Middle East nations. On the other hand how many aircraft does Dassault expect to export? The Rafale has hardly rekindled the Mirage wonder years (96 so far for 3 countries) and with a high-high 5th Gen design the purchase costs can only get higher.

Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #266 on: November 15, 2018, 11:20:39 am »
Not much new "news" but France and Germany look like they're having plenty of fun arguing about acronyms, and telling Spain what to do, which unsurprisingly Spain doesn't seem to like. Doesn't seem much evidence of any actual work having happened in the last 18 months since this started besides France saying they want it to carry nuclear weapons, fly off a carrier, and be generally awesome - don't know where affordability or ability to actually deliver this come in...

https://mobile.twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1062729212547813377

https://mobile.twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1063061494873686016

https://mobile.twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1063065249887215616

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #268 on: November 16, 2018, 02:16:27 am »
If Dassault could be commanded to discard the naval version, then things could go forward much smoother. Germans or Spaniards will never agree to swallow the bill that comes with a navalized airframe (mind you that we are talking with catapult and trap system and not simply a STOVL less demanding on the structure).

Then the trick to have the smallest nose size to force a custom radar design have really no reason to work once more. EU did experience the drama of the move to GaN. Once is enough.   

And last but not least, the nuclear integration would remain national since both systems are segregated. France should simply bear the cost of a customized adaptation by itself.

Then I am sure the project could run on smoother ground.     
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 02:40:04 am by TomcatViP »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #270 on: November 16, 2018, 04:10:37 am »
This drama sounds familiar. . .
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.


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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #273 on: November 16, 2018, 05:41:50 am »
Quote
“France has a specific policy about deterrence,” Maj. Gen. Jean-Pascal Breton, the French lead for the Future Combat Air System, told attendees at the International Fighter industry conference in Berlin. “That’s why we don’t want any countries to dictate to us what to do.”


Sourced from here: https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/11/15/french-officials-stake-out-sovereign-bits-in-franco-german-warplane-bid/  as linked by Flateric
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 09:19:44 am by Jemiba »

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #274 on: November 16, 2018, 06:19:26 am »
Brig. Gen. Gerald Funke seems to hit the nail on the head:
Quote
“Don’t trust anyone who says they can make predictions about the characteristics of an air system in 2040,” Funke said at the International Fighter industry conference on Wednesday. That attitude means Germany is expected to wait as long as possible before closing the design phase of the envisioned weapon and moving toward production.
“We need [a] sensible starting point that’s worth spending money on,” Funke told Defense News on the sidelines of the conference. “The time pressure is not as acute as industry presents it.”

Until now it seems (like with Tempest) the industry is pushing European governments to spend money for the next 20 years on the promises of some rather vague terminology and technology in the hopes of keeping their factories open past 2025. I've yet to see the European Air Staffs actually say what they want. At least the French are staking out what they need.

Not surprising to see Spain jumping on the bandwagon, their aerospace industry is Airbus, so its natural they want a slice of the pie to secure jobs down at Illescas.

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #275 on: November 16, 2018, 07:48:55 am »
Quote
"“We need [a] sensible starting point that’s worth spending money on,” Funke told Defense News on the sidelines of the conference. “The time pressure is not as acute as industry presents it.”

Of course , what credible operational experience do they have, if they don't even bother maintaining their Eurofighter fleet, how could they even know what they really need ?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 08:14:45 am by galgot »

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #276 on: November 16, 2018, 02:46:27 pm »
I am however baffled by the 100B$ (or was it €?) mentioned by Airbus for the program. Given the past resounding failures and the single digit cost of many Kratos design, one company at the forefront man-machine teaming UAS*.

There was obviously many interesting and promising things in this interview but still it sounded like intentions of the past. The gap b/w 1980's design philosophy that  still were at the base of what is  promised for 2040 left me quite dubious. And then, not that this is particularly abnormal with an airbus manager but you take a look at the CV of the man and you see a tremendous career built on a succession of industrial failure. Not my intention to be that hard but still the full gamut of keywords describing the complete range of polymorphic** technological promises tasted like the simplicity of a... deja vu.


I will paste the link here since it should appear for most of us on the previous page of this thread (from Flateric):
https://world.eurofighter.com/articles/the-road-to-fcas


Quote
From 2040 onwards we will face a massively increased threat level for air assets and these will require new technologies to address them. Even today we see the proliferation of threat systems with the advent of near and potential peer opponents***. It’s therefore vital to have a roadmap for capabilities and the technologies that leverage these.

The great thing with roadmaps and navigation chart is that you have to have as many waypoints as needed to be accurate, on target, on time and within your budget...



*see Kratos dev cost:
Quote
Kratos has invested about $70-75 million in its tactical drone development programmes, with Hebert saying the vast majority of this sum has been allocated to the Valkyrie. A significant part of the investment has included developing autonomous flight controls, which allow a single operator, on the ground or in another aircraft – such as the pilot of a Lockheed Martin F-35 – to manage the missions of several UAVs at once, says Fendley.
source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/kratos-more-than-doubles-tactical-uav-development-pr-453659/   [/i]

**Shouldn't I write OMNImorphic given the context?

*** In the context of a tri-national project for a specific EU defense, a near peer sounds like an awkward term given that it is generally used in the context of US Vs China or Russia where the mass effects are of another magnitude...   
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 04:46:10 pm by TomcatViP »

Offline kaiserd

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #277 on: November 17, 2018, 01:55:32 am »
To follow Tomcat’s comments above it would only be fair to point out that a lot of the same points could equally validly be made about the UK and US efforts and thinking about next generation combat aircraft.

The military are still trying to work out exactly what they need and want, the politicians don’t know what they are willing or able to pay from a capability and keeping factories open perspective (with Brexit an extra complication) and industry players scrambling around trying to stay relevant, credible and in-the-game.

In this context taking some extra time before launching the next massively expensive project is not a bad idea.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #278 on: November 20, 2018, 07:04:18 pm »
Article from French weekly La Tribune, with the title: The future European combat aircraft will take off industrially in January 2019

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/le-futur-avion-de-combat-europeen-va-decoller-industriellement-en-janvier-2019-798120.html

Quote
France and Germany have agreed to launch the sixth generation fighter program.
(…)
The French General Directorate of Armaments (DGA) will be the contracting agency for the three contracts
(…)
This agreement was validated Monday in Brussels by the two ministers - Florence Parly and Ursula von der Leyen.
(…)
In this context, the two countries will launch in January (...) a contract of architecture and design of SCAF for a period of two years under a joint leadership Dassault Aviation and Airbus.
Thales will also be on the photo … Dassault Aviation and Airbus will have to make room for the French electronics specialist, who is considered as the European champion of connectivity and system.
In addition, France and Germany have also agreed to sign two contracts for the development of two demonstrators at the Paris Air Show (17-23.06.19) : one on the aircraft, under the leadership of Dassault Aviation, with Airbus as subcontractor, the other on the engine under Safran leadership with the German engine manufacturer MTU as subcontractor. The demonstrator will validate the technological choices in order to have a sixth generation aircraft that will fly in 2035.
(...)
Paris and Berlin will also have to launch studies on sensors, radar and electronic warfare ...
(…)
Spain, which has asked to be an observer, will join the SCAF program once it will be stabilized. By the end of the year, the Spanish will join the high-level agreement (HL Coord), which was signed between France and Germany in April in Berlin. Finally, Madrid is expected to sign a letter of intent in the first quarter to participate in the SCAF program.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 04:09:23 am by Deltafan »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #279 on: November 30, 2018, 01:20:15 pm »
Well, a French article about : How does the French Air Force imagine its future "system" of combat ?

http://www.opex360.com/2018/11/30/comment-larmee-de-lair-imagine-son-futur-systeme-de-combat/

Posted only for the drawing (not necessarily representative, in particular with no air intake) of the "SCAF" :
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 01:24:37 pm by Deltafan »

Offline Sundog

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #280 on: January 20, 2019, 01:32:42 pm »
Janes report on FCAS.

What I found most interesting, at least in this video, is that it uses boom refueling. That's a first for a European design, isn't it?



« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 08:12:54 pm by Sundog »

Offline sienar

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #281 on: January 20, 2019, 04:41:35 pm »
Is the first pic new?

Offline muttbutt

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #282 on: January 20, 2019, 05:18:50 pm »
Is the first pic new?

Slight OT, but does anyone have an idea what that thing is on the first image, below the satellite and to the left of the Typhoon?

(Yes I know it could be just some generic insert AC here) :)

Offline Sundog

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #283 on: January 20, 2019, 08:11:45 pm »

Slight OT, but does anyone have an idea what that thing is on the first image, below the satellite and to the left of the Typhoon?

(Yes I know it could be just some generic insert AC here) :)

It's the same aircraft shown above the FCAS; it's an unmanned combat vehicle that is designed to work in concert with the FCAS and be controlled by the FCAS.

Offline Dragon029

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #284 on: January 20, 2019, 10:08:09 pm »
The airliner to the left of the Typhoon appears to be an Airbus MRTT; I think the horizontal white line just above the fuselage is a refueling hose coming from the drogue pod on the right wing.

Offline muttbutt

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #285 on: January 20, 2019, 10:30:20 pm »
I don't know...it looks pretty weird when you zoom in on it. But I'm not an aircraft guy so I'll take your word for it.

Online flateric

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #286 on: January 21, 2019, 03:29:50 am »
Is the first pic new?
yes, from the International Fighter Conference 2018, that caption clearly says
there were only murky shots from the screen before
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 03:31:35 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #287 on: January 21, 2019, 03:36:12 am »
The airliner to the left of the Typhoon appears to be an Airbus MRTT; I think the horizontal white line just above the fuselage is a refueling hose coming from the drogue pod on the right wing.
exactly so
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 06:56:30 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline muttbutt

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #288 on: January 21, 2019, 06:19:11 pm »
Thanks, that cleared it up...it just looked weird to me half cut off.. ???

Offline Deltafan

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Offline muttbutt

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #290 on: February 04, 2019, 10:59:07 am »
Quote
L'Espagne rejoindra officiellement le programme SCAF (Système de combat aérien du futur) à la mi-février. La ministre espagnole de la Défense avait annoncé son souhait de coopérer avec la France ...
Spanish MOD has confirmed they are joining...

Offline muttbutt

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #291 on: February 05, 2019, 09:40:08 am »
PARIS --- France and Germany on Jan. 31 awarded a two-year, 65-million euro contract to Airbus Defence and Space and Dassault Aviation to define the general architecture, and the industrial organization, of their next-generation combat aircraft, according to senior French officials.

The contract kicks off work on the new combat system, known in France as the Système de Combat Aérien Futur (SCAF) and in English as the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), and was awarded by France’s defense procurement agency, DGA, acting on behalf of both governments, to Airbus and Dassault as co-contractors. Its 65-million euro cost is split between both countries on a 50-50 basis.

The award will be officially announced on Wednesday Feb. 6 in Gennevilliers, near Paris, when French Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly and her German counterpart, Ursula von der Leyen, will together visit a Safran plant and witness the signing of a Letter of Intent between Safran and MTU Aero Engines on the SCAF program. The ministers will also visit the PFX research center where Safran is developing high-technology blades for advanced turbines.

More at the linky link
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/feature/199660/airbus%2C-dassault-jointly-awarded-two_year-scaf-%C2%A7-fcas-architecture-study.html

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #292 on: February 05, 2019, 09:59:36 am »
Quote
In fact, their co-contractor status is limited to the architecture study, and does not modify the leadership roles: France will lead the New-Generation Fighter project as well as the Next-Generation Weapon System of which it is a component, with Dassault as industrial leader, and Airbus as junior partner.
65M$ Tells you that very nothing was done. And now that any trace of competition is off the board and irrational allotment of project shares dominates, it would be crazy for any outside investor... to invest a dime.
This has all the signs to point toward a very costly story. 
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 10:28:42 am by TomcatViP »

Offline galgot

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #293 on: February 05, 2019, 10:30:24 am »
Quote
In fact, their co-contractor status is limited to the architecture study, and does not modify the leadership roles: France will lead the New-Generation Fighter project as well as the Next-Generation Weapon System of which it is a component, with Dassault as industrial leader, and Airbus as junior partner.
65M$ Tells you that very nothing was done. And now that any trace of competition is off the board and irrational allotment of project shares dominates, it would be crazy for any outside investor... to invest a dime.
This has all the signs to point toward a very costly story.

 ::)

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #294 on: February 05, 2019, 10:33:36 am »
is that what you wear with your penis-pump?

Offline galgot

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #295 on: February 05, 2019, 10:58:10 am »
is that what you wear with your penis-pump?

Classy…Have I touched something ? Tss tss tss…

Offline Sintra

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #296 on: February 05, 2019, 11:11:02 am »
Quote
In fact, their co-contractor status is limited to the architecture study, and does not modify the leadership roles: France will lead the New-Generation Fighter project as well as the Next-Generation Weapon System of which it is a component, with Dassault as industrial leader, and Airbus as junior partner.
65M$ Tells you that very nothing was done. And now that any trace of competition is off the board and irrational allotment of project shares dominates, it would be crazy for any outside investor... to invest a dime.
This has all the signs to point toward a very costly story.

 ::)

Where´s the "Facepam" smiley?

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #297 on: February 05, 2019, 02:36:38 pm »
is that what you wear with your penis-pump?

Classy…Have I touched something ? Tss tss tss…
Seems you are right where you like to be. Tell me Mr TseTse, in what is your flagellation pants related to the Future Franco-German (and more) airplane?

Offline galgot

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #298 on: February 05, 2019, 02:52:59 pm »
Indeed, sorry, it’s more related to you and your brilliant comments.
You’re my favorite poster here.

Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #299 on: February 06, 2019, 12:21:49 am »
Spending 60m EUR over two years hardly a sign of great commitment. It won't even buy much paper.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 12:56:46 am by red admiral »

Offline Hood

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #300 on: February 06, 2019, 01:22:55 am »
It does seem a small amount, compared to even the initial Anglo-French FCAS commitment which saw the UK allocate £120M as its share for the joint study phase. But this Dassault-Airbus contract isn't even at that stage yet, its simply a contract to define what the SCAF will be, what elements are needed and who is going to do what. This is top-level industrial level work, before anyone draws up any detailed specifications or even thinks about hardware. I'm not sure it signals a political reticence towards the project, it is just very early days in a 20 year development programme.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #301 on: February 06, 2019, 03:23:47 am »
Hi...

In this article of La Tribune (In French, sorry) we learn too that 115 millions € are foreseen, from France to Safran, for the engine of the SCAF...

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/la-france-et-l-allemagne-vont-notifier-un-premier-contrat-scaf-a-dassault-et-airbus-806266.html

65 + 115 = 180 millions €, today 158,40 millions £...

...
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 07:40:14 am by Deltafan »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #302 on: February 06, 2019, 06:36:21 pm »
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 06:38:14 pm by Deltafan »

Offline Deino

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #303 on: February 07, 2019, 11:25:14 pm »
via ForzaHexagone / KeyForum  ;)

He was my North, my South, my East and West,
My working week and my Sunday rest,
My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.
...
For nothing now can ever come to any good.
-------------------------------------------------
W.H.Auden (1945)

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #304 on: February 08, 2019, 01:11:49 am »
Thanks a lot Deino :)

Online flateric

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #305 on: February 08, 2019, 06:21:00 am »
...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline galgot

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #306 on: February 08, 2019, 06:38:09 am »
Thanks !
Last image me like :) Dassault/Airbus Zwilling ? Enough to have our KittyVip to choke…

on the 3d render, new are the grey antennas (?) on the lerx LE.
Also can see these are frames on the canopy now…
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 07:27:40 am by galgot »

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #307 on: February 08, 2019, 09:27:29 am »
Get over it you'll have to show respects to others.

Offline Deltafan

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