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Author Topic: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet  (Read 23309 times)

Offline Deltafan

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France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« on: July 14, 2017, 06:35:26 am »
Hi,

As this project (for the replacement of the French Rafale and the German Eurofighter) is different of the Airbus project to replace the German Tornado and the Spanish F-18, I open a new topic :)

Well, as the time to replace Rafale and EF is not for tomorrow, this topic may last for décades  ;D

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-germany-defence/france-and-germany-to-develop-new-european-fighter-jet-idUSKBN19Y1FJ

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,26320.180.html



Alas, it seems that we must maybe wait for mid-2018 to have more official content. But maybe we'll have some things before (hopefully).

I red in the french media available on the web that neither Dassault nor Airbus wanted to make comments about the Merkel-Macron statements.

At least we can compare the German-Spanish Airbus project and an old representation of a stealth-ised Rafale :

 
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 10:52:37 am by flateric »

Offline muttbutt

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2017, 07:14:28 am »
Oh this is a completely separate project?...I didn't realise, thanks mate for clearing it up  B)

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2017, 08:18:55 am »
Oh this is a completely separate project?...
As far as we can know now :)

The replacement for the French Rafale and the German Eurofighter is foreseen much later than the Airbus replacement of the German Tornado and the Spanish F-18. 

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2017, 11:57:44 am »
interestingly, it appears to have completely surprised Dassault, who are now worried that Germany will pump more funds into the project and therefore be able to dictate things like workshare.

Offline muttbutt

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2017, 03:06:32 pm »
Quote
BAE says unfazed by Franco-German fighter project, sees future role


The head of military aviation at UK defence contractor BAE Systems said on Friday (14 July) he did not feel threatened by Franco-German plans to develop a new European fighter and predicted Britain would end up participating in some way.

France and Germany unveiled plans on Thursday for a new European fighter to tighten defence and security cooperation. The two countries currently compete for sales, with Germany and Britain both part of the Eurofighter consortium.
Rest at the link
http://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/bae-says-unfazed-by-franco-german-fighter-project-sees-future-role/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1500049513

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2017, 07:08:33 pm »
interestingly, it appears to have completely surprised Dassault, who are now worried that Germany will pump more funds into the project and therefore be able to dictate things like workshare.
Dassault made no comment. Or you have a source to share with us.

Dassault knows since a long time that France has no more enough money to build alone its next fighter. I think that they'll try to get the Project Management like for the Neuron Stealth UCAV demonstrator (France, Sweden, Italy, Spain, Swiss and Greece). Officially, they already said (last year) that for an european cooperation they don't want a system like for the Eurofighter or the A-400 M.

But, Germany has today much more money than France. And if this economic situation stays the same in future, probably the part of Germany will be bigger than Dassault could expect... Except if Germany agrees to let the Project Management to France.

For the workshare, Dassault had, in the past, already shared work to other french companies  and even abroad (like to its belgian subsidiary SABCA). They shared the work for the Neuron too. I don't think that it could be a problem in 2040. The problem will be the Project Management...       

« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 03:27:46 am by Deltafan »

Online martinbayer

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2017, 10:06:20 pm »
interestingly, it appears to have completely surprised Dassault, who are now worried that Germany will pump more funds into the project and therefore be able to dictate things like workshare.
Dassault made no comment. Or you have a source to share with us.

Dassault knows since a long time that France has no more enough money to build alone its next fighter. I think that they'll try to get the "maîtrise d'œuvre" (I don't know the good word in English  : subject mastery ?) like for the Neuron Stealth UCAV demonstrator (France, Sweden, Italy, Spain, Swiss and Greece). Officially, they already said (last year) that for an european cooperation they don't want a system like for the Eurofighter or the A-400 M.

But, Germany has today much more money than France. And if this economic situation stay the same in future, probably the part of Germany will be bigger than Dassault could expect... Except if Germany agree to let the "subject mastery" to France.

For the workshare, Dassault had, in the past, already shared work to other french companies  and even abroad (like to its belgian subsidiary SABCA). I don't think that it could be a problem in 2040. The problem will be the "subject mastery"...         

Maîtrise d'œuvre = Project management.

Which brings to mind the tired old joke:

"Q: What do a project manager and a butterfly have in common?

A: A butterfly doesn't fly butter either..."

Martin
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 10:32:15 pm by martinbayer »
Would be marching to the beat of his own drum, if he didn't detest marching to any drumbeat at all so much.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2017, 02:34:25 am »
Maîtrise d'œuvre = Project management.
Thanks :)

I edited my post.

Offline Hood

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2017, 03:33:52 am »
A little more political detail.
Not sure how much of this just fluffy politco talk since Airbus and Eurocopter etc. have pretty much made a joint French-German aerospace industry anyway, Dassault being the obvious independent outsider.

Two thoughts come to mind; is France attempting to dissuade German from buying US and how long will it take before the politicians start talking about merging Dassault with Airbus.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/franco-german-fighter-proposal-gains-momentum-439509/

Offline Flyaway

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2017, 11:58:40 am »
A little more political detail.
Not sure how much of this just fluffy politco talk since Airbus and Eurocopter etc. have pretty much made a joint French-German aerospace industry anyway, Dassault being the obvious independent outsider.

Two thoughts come to mind; is France attempting to dissuade German from buying US and how long will it take before the politicians start talking about merging Dassault with Airbus.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/franco-german-fighter-proposal-gains-momentum-439509/

From that article it sounds like BAE have got their fingers in a lot of different fighter projects, as thanks to brexit we can't rely on getting in on any European fighter project.

Online red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2017, 02:41:36 am »
"Project" seems a strong description for this sort of thing given that there seems to be no money or engineering effort associated with it.

What we're seeing in these various stories is the initial international manoeuvring similar to that for Eurofighter. Someone on the political side has noted that it might be a good idea to keep the many thousands of high tech aircraft design and manufacture jobs in their country. Announcements of joint studies are easy and cost nothing. Look whether there are any contracts and what their value is.

Fundamentally, neither Germany nor France have €10bn+ sitting around to spend on this sort of thing. France is even cutting its military spending.

Time will tell who the serious players are (e.g. Japan seems to have spent a few hundred mn $ already on ATD-X)

Offline Airplane

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2017, 06:25:45 pm »
"Project" seems a strong description for this sort of thing given that there seems to be no money or engineering effort associated with it.

What we're seeing in these various stories is the initial international manoeuvring similar to that for Eurofighter. Someone on the political side has noted that it might be a good idea to keep the many thousands of high tech aircraft design and manufacture jobs in their country. Announcements of joint studies are easy and cost nothing. Look whether there are any contracts and what their value is.

Fundamentally, neither Germany nor France have €10bn+ sitting around to spend on this sort of thing. France is even cutting its military spending.

Time will tell who the serious players are (e.g. Japan seems to have spent a few hundred mn $ already on ATD-X)

I work a little bit with Japanese engineers and its a matter of pride what they are doing. They WILL get something in the air that is closer to production than the demonstrator out or stubborn pride by itself. If it goes to production.... That's another question entirely.

Europe. Is harder to gauge. Typhoon is starting to become antiquated but their only real foe is Russia and their PAC FA doesn't look like it will roll off the line in real numbers. Plus they live under our golden umbrella. For the sake of their economy, they may just roll out a drone just to keep their engineers working and current.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 08:22:20 am by Jemiba »
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Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2017, 01:29:52 am »
Typhoon is becoming antiquated?

Remember, it has a further 20+ years in service as of now, and likely more. It might be easy to dismiss this Franco-German project (actually much of Europe is incorporated in that "German" part) as purely political, but that would be to misunderstand how enthusiastic Europe is to be  united.

My opinion is that Europe will produce a successor to Typhoon and Rafale as it will also produce a UCAV, and the only question is how much of that Britain contributes to.

I would rather see the UK join with Japan on a future fighter, but has either country got the balls not to buy American?

Offline muttbutt

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2017, 11:49:05 am »
Typhoon is becoming antiquated?

Remember, it has a further 20+ years in service as of now, and likely more. It might be easy to dismiss this Franco-German project (actually much of Europe is incorporated in that "German" part) as purely political, but that would be to misunderstand how enthusiastic Europe is to be  united.

My opinion is that Europe will produce a successor to Typhoon and Rafale as it will also produce a UCAV, and the only question is how much of that Britain contributes to.

I would rather see the UK join with Japan on a future fighter, but has either country got the balls not to buy American?
As I said over on the key forums, I'm cautiously optimistic. There seems to be a genuine effort to work together on these things. What with the French letting the Germans take the lead on the UAV and the new MBT.
It seems like the Germans will give the French the nod to lead the fighter project.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2017, 12:41:07 pm »
Indeed, it is more a question of how advanced it will be. As has been said, are they looking for a genuine future fighter or just a European stealth jet.