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Author Topic: AMSCI/ALSV - Air-launched mini shuttles from early 1980s - help needed  (Read 62565 times)

Offline flateric

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I think that you remember these tiny stuff that Boeing, Rockwell and GD proposed to USAF under family of programs - "Air-Launched Sortie Vehicle", ALSV/“Advanced Military Spaceflight Capability Technology Identification”, AMSCI and so on.

Don't you have higher-resolution scans of these proposals? These are for my friends' future book on MIG 50x50 Spiral and other Soviet air-launched concepts, that will be published in spring, 2008.

Thanks in advance!

P.S. Literature list that may contain stuff needed

1. Interavia Aerospace Review, 1982, v.37, II, N 2, p.117.
5. Plight International, 1984, v.125, 14/1, N 3897, p.72.
8. Air Force Magazine, 1984, v.67, N 4, p.25-26.
10.Aerospace America, 1985, v.23, II, N 2, p.50-53.
11. Journal of Spacecraft, 1986, v.23, XI-XII, N 6, p.612-619.
12. International Defense Review, 1982, v.15, N 8, p.1113.
13. Popular Mechanics, 1982, XII, p.120.
14. Space World, 1983, N T-1-229, p.33.
15. Plight International, 1982, v.122, 4/XII, N 3839, p.1637.
18. Smith B.A. Study shows space sortie concept viable by 1990. Aviation Week and Space Technology, 1982, v.117, 1/XI, N 18, p.69-70.
19. Aviation Week and Space Technology, 1982, v.117, 20/XII, N 25, p.63.
20. Aviation Week and Space Technology, 1982, v.116, 14/VI, N 24, p.28.
22. Aviation Week and Space Technology, 1982, v.117, 9/III, N 6, p.49.
23. Air Force Magazine, 1983, v.66, N 11, p.111.
30. Spaceflight, 1984, v.26, III, К 3, p.123-128.
32. Spaceflight, 1985, v.27, I, N 1, p.3.
33. Spaceflight, 1987, v.29, III, N 3, p.90-91.
34. Interavia Air Letter, 1986, 20/V, N 11001, p.6.
35. Air et Cosmos, 1986, 6/IX, N 1107, p.46.
36. Plight International, 1986, v.130, 30/VIII, N 4026, p.60.
37. Plight International Show Daily, 1986, 2/IX, N 3, p.36.
38. Air et Cosmos, 1986, 20/XII, N 1122, p.31-32.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline pometablava

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Re: AMSCI/ALSV - Air-launched mini shuttles from early 1980s - help needed
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2007, 08:56:37 am »
Quote
Don't you have higher-resolution scans of these proposals?

I'll sent you some of it to your email

Quote
Future book on MIG 50x50 Spiral and other Soviet air-launched concepts, that will be published in spring, 2008.

A future customer is waiting from right now

(I hope that book never be published with this "people" at http://www.aviapress.com/. I ordered  "Soviet Long Range and Naval Aviation missiles" book which theoretically was shipped 25-10-2007 but never received. All the emails I've sent to "customer service" remain without answer...I'm a bit dissapointed (to say something soft), not for the money lost but because I've very interested on the book contents)

Offline flateric

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Re: AMSCI/ALSV - Air-launched mini shuttles from early 1980s - help needed
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2007, 08:59:19 am »
Quote
Don't you have higher-resolution scans of these proposals?

I'll sent you some of it to your email

Quote
Future book on MIG 50x50 Spiral and other Soviet air-launched concepts, that will be published in spring, 2008.

A future customer is waiting from right now

(I hope that book never be published with this "people" at http://www.aviapress.com/. I ordered  "Soviet Long Range and Naval Aviation missiles" book which theoretically was shipped 25-10-2007 but never received. All the emails I've sent to "customer service" remain without answer...I'm a bit dissapointed (to say something soft), not for the money lost but because I've very interested on the book contents)


Nope, they are Vadim Lukashevich and Igor Afanasyev (www.buran.ru) - and me too, waiting patiently for)
Regarding Aviapress - two weeks not a big time so far with a Russian post with average salary rate of 200 USD.
I'd began worry at third week or so.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 09:03:28 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline pometablava

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Re: AMSCI/ALSV - Air-launched mini shuttles from early 1980s - help needed
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2007, 01:16:08 pm »
Quote
two weeks not a big time

Ups, sorry the right date is 25-09-2007

Offline archipeppe

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Re: AMSCI/ALSV - Air-launched mini shuttles from early 1980s - help needed
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2007, 12:34:20 am »
That's my personal contribution to the discussion...

Offline flateric

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Re: AMSCI/ALSV - Air-launched mini shuttles from early 1980s - help needed
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2007, 01:30:02 am »
And that's mine;) Thank you, Archipeppe -  that's look good, hope that original drawings can improve it even more)
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline archipeppe

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Re: AMSCI/ALSV - Air-launched mini shuttles from early 1980s - help needed
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2007, 02:23:42 am »
Great Flateric!!!!  :)  :)

I really missed these drawings when I realized mine ones....
I based my work upon the only two artist's concepts avaible on web.

For sure with this fresh informations I can really improve my work.

Many, many thanks.

Offline flateric

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Re: AMSCI/ALSV - Air-launched mini shuttles from early 1980s - help needed
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2007, 03:08:34 am »
For Rockwell ALSV I have only this crappy side view and two cross-sections
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline CFE

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Re: AMSCI/ALSV - Air-launched mini shuttles from early 1980s - help needed
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2007, 09:24:12 pm »
From a technical standpoint, was the ALSV concept even feasible?  Much like the Russian MAKS (ALSV-ski?) it would need to be "nearly SSTO."  The drop tank lets you get away with a lighter structure than a true SSTO, and air launch buys you a high subsonic initial velocity (plus avoiding certain velocity losses due to the trajectory.)

Also, how risky would the top-mounted launch have been?  Many engineers turned against it after the D-21+M-21 collision.  But the truth is that clean separations had been achieved when the mated D-21 & M-21 separated in a shallow dive.  The Enterprise ALT flights should have also redeemed that launch method.

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: AMSCI/ALSV - Air-launched mini shuttles from early 1980s - help needed
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2007, 07:09:40 am »
Many engineers turned against it after the D-21+M-21 collision. 

Much of the proplem there was that separation occured around Mach 3. The D-21 went up, hit the M-21's shock wave, then bounced back down. Not a problem for subsonic sep.
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Offline archipeppe

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Re: AMSCI/ALSV - Air-launched mini shuttles from early 1980s - help needed
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2007, 08:05:14 am »
Much of the proplem there was that separation occured around Mach 3. The D-21 went up, hit the M-21's shock wave, then bounced back down. Not a problem for subsonic sep.

Yep.

It is my opinion that air launch is the only feasible option if you try to setup an "almost SSTO".
Indeed any of the much projects developed by this tecnique (not counting the suborbital X15, SpaceShip One and with the exception of the unmanned OSC Pegasus) has never reached the hardware status.

Perhaps....

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: AMSCI/ALSV - Air-launched mini shuttles from early 1980s - help needed
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2007, 09:43:38 am »
Progress...
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And so the endless circle of life comes to an end, meaningless and grim. Why did they live, and why did they die? No reason. Two hundred million years of evolution snuffed out, for in the end Nature is horrific and teaches us nothing

Offline archipeppe

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Re: AMSCI/ALSV - Air-launched mini shuttles from early 1980s - help needed
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2007, 03:06:03 am »
Uau Scott, amazing!!!

Offline flateric

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Re: AMSCI/ALSV - Air-launched mini shuttles from early 1980s - help needed
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2007, 03:27:54 am »
As Igor Afanasyev said, 'there are tiny details that makes really exciting drawing from cute one')
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: AMSCI/ALSV - Air-launched mini shuttles from early 1980s - help needed
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2007, 04:23:35 pm »
The Boeing Space Sortie vehicle and associated 747. The final design used seven modified RL-10 rocket engines in the tail of the 747 for an extra boost to help climb right at separation; an earlier iteration used a single SSME, but that was much more thrust than was needed.
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And so the endless circle of life comes to an end, meaningless and grim. Why did they live, and why did they die? No reason. Two hundred million years of evolution snuffed out, for in the end Nature is horrific and teaches us nothing