Chengdu J-20 news and analysis Part III

FighterJock said:
Deino said:
J-20A + WS-10B

Is the J-20A now testing twin WS-10B engines or is it still one engine?

From what I recall, we had photos of a J-20A in yellow with dual WS-10 engines, and then rumours and drawings of a second J-20A with dual WS-10 engines as well.

Then earlier this year we also had rumours of another J-20 (possibly an earlier J-20 prototype) with one Al-31 and one WS-10 engine that featured a TVC nozzle.


The photo that Deino posted is likely a photo taken a while ago of one of the J-20As with dual WS-10s from earlier.
 
This is new and may have bearing on the reported detection of a Chinese J-20 by Indian fighters:
"..India air force Su-30 jets to get indigenous infrared tracking system to locate Chinese J-20 jets
June 6, 2018...NEW DELHI – Indian Air Force (IAF) frontline jet fighter Sukhoi Su-30MKI soon will be equipped with indigenous infrared sensors to detect even a radar-evading stealth aircraft possessed by India's adversaries in day and night conditions. Zee News reports.
The Sukhoi Su-30MKI already has a radar that can detect and track the supposed stealth Chinese fighter Chengdu J-20 but with the government deciding to develop a long range dual band infrared imaging search and track system (IRST) for the aircraft under ‘Make II’ sub-category, the IAF jet will be able to locate any plane with stealth characteristics. The IRST can detect and track fighter jets, helicopters and missiles which emit infrared radiation.
The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) approved the procurement of equipment for the India Defence Forces, including the development of the IRST for Su-30MKI. The system will be able to operate in day and night conditions and will substantially enhance the capabilities of the aircraft.

A couple of months back, the IAF revealed that the Sukhoi Su-30MKI radar can see China's Chengdu J-20 hundreds of kilometers away."
https://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/pt/2018/06/india-fighters-infrared.html?cmpid=enl_mae_wrap_up_2018-06-08&pwhid=008a220637c696d632aca29696b59236c3a895dff7da20939a1b5ac1a016430ca4cc56ea31df86c3d134e933ab6cc256e9c497d1f5c23504809625e20f41bd74&eid=288671000&bid=2131896
 
VH said:
This is new and may have bearing on the reported detection of a Chinese J-20 by Indian fighters:
"..India air force Su-30 jets to get indigenous infrared tracking system to locate Chinese J-20 jets
June 6, 2018...NEW DELHI – Indian Air Force (IAF) frontline jet fighter Sukhoi Su-30MKI soon will be equipped with indigenous infrared sensors to detect even a radar-evading stealth aircraft possessed by India's adversaries in day and night conditions. Zee News reports.
The Sukhoi Su-30MKI already has a radar that can detect and track the supposed stealth Chinese fighter Chengdu J-20 but with the government deciding to develop a long range dual band infrared imaging search and track system (IRST) for the aircraft under ‘Make II’ sub-category, the IAF jet will be able to locate any plane with stealth characteristics. The IRST can detect and track fighter jets, helicopters and missiles which emit infrared radiation.
The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) approved the procurement of equipment for the India Defence Forces, including the development of the IRST for Su-30MKI. The system will be able to operate in day and night conditions and will substantially enhance the capabilities of the aircraft.

A couple of months back, the IAF revealed that the Sukhoi Su-30MKI radar can see China's Chengdu J-20 hundreds of kilometers away."
https://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/pt/2018/06/india-fighters-infrared.html?cmpid=enl_mae_wrap_up_2018-06-08&pwhid=008a220637c696d632aca29696b59236c3a895dff7da20939a1b5ac1a016430ca4cc56ea31df86c3d134e933ab6cc256e9c497d1f5c23504809625e20f41bd74&eid=288671000&bid=2131896

does this article add anything new? isn't this the same claim we've heard a month or so ago
 
The USAF was surprised by the “surprising sophistication of Indian fighter aircraft and skill of Indian pilots” during a joint training exercise called Cope India at Gwalior. This was in 2004. The addition of an advanced IRST of Indian design on their front line Su-30 fighters may prove to be another surprise in the time of stealthy aircraft.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/cope-india.htm

All I am saying is do not play India cheap. The backbone of the Indian Air Force is the Sukhoi-30MKI. And India has been very resourceful in modifying older designs to perform tasks in the modern skies.
 
VH said:
The USAF was surprised by the “surprising sophistication of Indian fighter aircraft and skill of Indian pilots” during a joint training exercise called Cope India at Gwalior. This was in 2004. The addition of an advanced IRST of Indian design on their front line Su-30 fighters may prove to be another surprise in the time of stealthy aircraft.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/cope-india.htm

All I am saying is do not play India cheap. The backbone of the Indian Air Force is the Sukhoi-30MKI. And India has been very resourceful in modifying older designs to perform tasks in the modern skies.

I don't think anyone is playing India cheap? Upgrading aircraft with more modern subsystems is natural and good for many air forces.

I think your comments might be better suited for a dedicated IAF thread rather than the J-20 thread.
 
Right now the subject is the J-20 and the material I posted has to do with the J-20. I do understand your sensitivity regarding detection of the J-20.
 
VH said:
Right now the subject is the J-20 and the material I posted has to do with the J-20. I do understand your sensitivity regarding detection of the J-20.

I certainly think it is reasonable to treat their previous claims with a generous helping of salt, yes.

Directly quoting those articles without added commentary as you have done so would suggest that you believe their claims are reasonable.
 
Blitzo said:
I certainly think it is reasonable to treat their previous claims with a generous helping of salt, yes.

Directly quoting those articles without added commentary as you have done so would suggest that you believe their claims are reasonable.

I do think these claims are plausible. Any stealthy aircraft will have multiple signatures with radar being the most prominent. IR is a legitimate signature weighed against the computing power applied to interpret that signature. I have had the opportunity to crawl around one of the F-23 prototypes and was impressed with the attention to controlling the IR signature of the engine exhausts. Even F-22 has measures to control the IR signature of its engine exhaust. So it is highly plausible that J-20 could be detected by an advanced IRST. We will have to wait until this Indian IRST is in use to determine the final performance.
 
VH said:
Blitzo said:
I certainly think it is reasonable to treat their previous claims with a generous helping of salt, yes.

Directly quoting those articles without added commentary as you have done so would suggest that you believe their claims are reasonable.

I do think these claims are plausible. Any stealthy aircraft will have multiple signatures with radar being the most prominent. IR is a legitimate signature weighed against the computing power applied to interpret that signature. I have had the opportunity to crawl around one of the F-23 prototypes and was impressed with the attention to controlling the IR signature of the engine exhausts. Even F-22 has measures to control the IR signature of its engine exhaust. So it is highly plausible that J-20 could be detected by an advanced IRST. We will have to wait until this Indian IRST is in use to determine the final performance.

I have no disagreements with the utility of IR sensors being useful for the counter stealth role. Whether they'll be able to be used at practical real life distances is another question of course, but I have no issue with the role of IRSTs. For example, the fact that F-35, J-20 and Su-57 all have an onboard IRST sensor I think will be beneficial for their air to air mission against opposing stealthy targets in certain circumstances.


But the original claims of Su-30MKI radars being able to detect or track J-20s at range should be treated with as much skepticism, just as much if PLAAF claimed J-16 radar could detect or track F-22, F-35 or Su-57 at range, or if a Super Hornet or F-15 could detect a J-20 or SU-57 at range.
 
brief video/gfy of J-20 doing night exercises, with a neat breakaway halfway through

https://gfycat.com/BetterScarceGoat
 

Attachments

  • J-20A 2021 + WS-10B - 20180727 XXL mod.jpg
    J-20A 2021 + WS-10B - 20180727 XXL mod.jpg
    350.4 KB · Views: 496
  • J-20A 2021 + WS-10B - 20180727 XXL part mod 2.jpg
    J-20A 2021 + WS-10B - 20180727 XXL part mod 2.jpg
    1.6 MB · Views: 474
Three J20s arrived to Zhuhai air show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPcnGEQi6Fk
 
4 J-20s in Zhuhai
 

Attachments

  • 8420c4aegy1fwpxzrilw2j21420qowjx.jpg
    8420c4aegy1fwpxzrilw2j21420qowjx.jpg
    48.6 KB · Views: 238
  • 8420c4aegy1fwpxzswzfuj20qo140ago.jpg
    8420c4aegy1fwpxzswzfuj20qo140ago.jpg
    109.4 KB · Views: 214
  • 8420c4aegy1fwpxztw0ewj20qo13zdlp.jpg
    8420c4aegy1fwpxztw0ewj20qo13zdlp.jpg
    117.4 KB · Views: 211
  • 8420c4aegy1fwpxzutb82j20qo1400ys.jpg
    8420c4aegy1fwpxzutb82j20qo1400ys.jpg
    120.8 KB · Views: 109
Thanks for sharing nice pics. I heard the news that TVC nozzle is attached to J-10; Is that targets for J-20 application?

Is there maneuver demonstration using TVC' J-10?
 
litzj said:
Thanks for sharing nice pics. I heard the news that TVC nozzle is attached to J-10; Is that targets for J-20 application?

Is there maneuver demonstration using TVC' J-10?
Let's wait,Zhuhai airshow begin on Nov 6
 

Attachments

  • img-5bf552e60ea4ed35424503a72eed3dbb.jpg
    img-5bf552e60ea4ed35424503a72eed3dbb.jpg
    1.8 MB · Views: 530
They certainly know how to make lookers. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ALPZPeZ3bE
 

Attachments

  • 8EZsLXjKlpIzge20OTyxom_CgCu2OXFSYalyeSHP8DY.jpg
    8EZsLXjKlpIzge20OTyxom_CgCu2OXFSYalyeSHP8DY.jpg
    1.4 MB · Views: 88
  • RwrCwiQPpHtXnj05fT-oIv13zDj1HPEg_pu-ya5Z9u8.jpg
    RwrCwiQPpHtXnj05fT-oIv13zDj1HPEg_pu-ya5Z9u8.jpg
    441.7 KB · Views: 334
  • AnB2FOYN30wjLaZFiT8sPRZ6DVPVeSVUCQ0pppIm0w8.jpg
    AnB2FOYN30wjLaZFiT8sPRZ6DVPVeSVUCQ0pppIm0w8.jpg
    394.1 KB · Views: 341
  • China’s newest J-20 stealth fighter makes appearance 2.jpg
    China’s newest J-20 stealth fighter makes appearance 2.jpg
    87.4 KB · Views: 344
  • 31763191428_5fd4b161f0_o.jpg
    31763191428_5fd4b161f0_o.jpg
    183.4 KB · Views: 360
MOAR!

This guy also has a ton of excellent pictures of that latest J-10 that has been going around.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/145141267@N03/
 

Attachments

  • 41593134565_768420fe35_o.jpg
    41593134565_768420fe35_o.jpg
    2.4 MB · Views: 64
  • 44925417894_11abca466b_o.jpg
    44925417894_11abca466b_o.jpg
    374.9 KB · Views: 62
  • 44736053755_00c4270b1d_o.jpg
    44736053755_00c4270b1d_o.jpg
    408 KB · Views: 67
  • 31778036228_85fe933f47_o.jpg
    31778036228_85fe933f47_o.jpg
    1.7 MB · Views: 70
  • 44925422584_478b70c286_o.jpg
    44925422584_478b70c286_o.jpg
    1.4 MB · Views: 64
  • 44925433514_ce0c1664f3_o.jpg
    44925433514_ce0c1664f3_o.jpg
    1.2 MB · Views: 59
  • 44925412704_2efdd9bec3_o.jpg
    44925412704_2efdd9bec3_o.jpg
    560.9 KB · Views: 58
  • 44925415304_6984237ba3_o.jpg
    44925415304_6984237ba3_o.jpg
    486.9 KB · Views: 51
  • 43832235510_ddd383f537_o.jpg
    43832235510_ddd383f537_o.jpg
    2.6 MB · Views: 61
  • 44736023855_54da5c22df_o.jpg
    44736023855_54da5c22df_o.jpg
    3.6 MB · Views: 72
Really makes you wonder how much is postulation based on photos of American 5th gens versus actual espionage.
 
Very detailed pics make for interesting enhancements. Lots of panel detail (zoom in - its huge)
 

Attachments

  • J-20-Enhanced_Detail1.jpg
    J-20-Enhanced_Detail1.jpg
    3 MB · Views: 100
NUSNA_Moebius said:
Really makes you wonder how much is postulation based on photos of American 5th gens versus actual espionage.

Based on photos do you think it's more likely based on espionage or less?
 
It seems fairly clear the 3D vectoring nozzle on the J-10 is a prototype for eventual fitment to the J-20...

http://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=7232.540
 

Attachments

  • DD3C9856-7AC7-44A1-9F83-A0092EB0F396.jpeg
    DD3C9856-7AC7-44A1-9F83-A0092EB0F396.jpeg
    330.5 KB · Views: 60
  • 80D55DC0-8B95-4C08-A7FE-370284CD5792.jpeg
    80D55DC0-8B95-4C08-A7FE-370284CD5792.jpeg
    280.7 KB · Views: 59
  • F-135Nozzle.jpg
    F-135Nozzle.jpg
    95.7 KB · Views: 60
What makes the espionage argument moot - at least at the level of public knowledge, and probably at the level of knowledge possessed by the Western IC - is that while the J-20 clearly looks a lot like an F-22, and uses the same LO design philosophy, all the visible features could have been copied from open sources, a decade or more before the first flight. For example....

http://www.f22fighter.com/AffordableStealth.pdf

Chinese engineers, therefore, would have had several years in which to reverse-engineer visible features, understand their importance and work out how to manufacture them before J-20 development started. For example "how do we make an optically acceptable frameless canopy?" could have been a challenge set in 1997.

The J-20 appeared at the end of 2010. On typical Western timescales, this would have meant that development started in 2004-05 with PDR or equivalent in 2006-07. However, this is somewhat earlier than the point at which anyone started to talk about cyber-espionage as a big deal - we started hearing about the Advanced Persistent Threat in 2008.
 
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
It seems fairly clear the 3D vectoring nozzle on the J-10 is a prototype for eventual fitment to the J-20...

http://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=7232.540
One TVC engine may already be installed on a J-20 test unit.
 
LowObservable said:
What makes the espionage argument moot - at least at the level of public knowledge, and probably at the level of knowledge possessed by the Western IC - is that while the J-20 clearly looks a lot like an F-22, and uses the same LO design philosophy, all the visible features could have been copied from open sources, a decade or more before the first flight. For example....

http://www.f22fighter.com/AffordableStealth.pdf

Chinese engineers, therefore, would have had several years in which to reverse-engineer visible features, understand their importance and work out how to manufacture them before J-20 development started. For example "how do we make an optically acceptable frameless canopy?" could have been a challenge set in 1997.

The J-20 appeared at the end of 2010. On typical Western timescales, this would have meant that development started in 2004-05 with PDR or equivalent in 2006-07. However, this is somewhat earlier than the point at which anyone started to talk about cyber-espionage as a big deal - we started hearing about the Advanced Persistent Threat in 2008.

The J-20’s program start goes as far back as 2000. There’s a very likely chance that espionage contributed to and enhanced the development of the basic component technologies and techniques used on the J-20, but there’s a chasm between stealing information to enhance your own capabilities and straight up copying. If we want to be serious about how IP and technology can be purloined by foreign actors to accelerate their own technological development we need to have a more sophisticated understanding of how this actually works. It’s not as simplistic and straightforward as copying someone else’s answers on a test, and we ought to be careful not to fool ourselves into believing those who steal the technologies of others are intellectually inferior and incapable of innovating and expanding on that stolen knowledge on their own. The appropriate analogy is not a cheat sheet but a bootstrap, especially when it’s clear to anyone with an honest and sober mind that military and industrial development for many countries (not just China) is not an honor contest but a no hold’s bar one.
 
Does a Zebra have stripes?

Where China was behind whether in wing tech or materials or structural tech they clearly used spying and espionage through corporate employees and students, maybe even outright buying the tech or bribing employees with "honeypots" or cash. It happened. And so did the "cyber" espionage before it became well known.
China now can go their own direction and even start to lead in certain areas, but they will still use all means of espionage to get what they need (physical infiltration, cyber hacking, student and employee theft of data) in many cases the tech is being given to them just to get access to Chinese markets.

They are experts of copying tech, see the J-15
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-rips-chinas-j-15-fighter-jet-which-beijing-stole-from-moscow-2018-9

How else did China leapfrog so fast to reach parity?

https://freebeacon.com/national-security/china-hacked-f22-f35-jet-secrets/

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kz9xgn/man-who-sold-f-35-secrets-to-china-pleads-guilty

https://www.investors.com/news/who-is-behind-the-lockheed-f-35-boeing-p-8-hack/
 

Attachments

  • J-15.jpg
    J-15.jpg
    162.6 KB · Views: 45
kcran567 said:
Does a Zebra have stripes?

Where China was behind whether in wing tech or materials or structural tech they clearly used spying and espionage through corporate employees and students, maybe even outright buying the tech or bribing employees with "honeypots" or cash. It happened. And so did the "cyber" espionage before it became well known.
China now can go their own direction and even start to lead in certain areas, but they will still use all means of espionage to get what they need (physical infiltration, cyber hacking, student and employee theft of data) in many cases the tech is being given to them just to get access to Chinese markets.

They are experts of copying tech, see the J-15
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-rips-chinas-j-15-fighter-jet-which-beijing-stole-from-moscow-2018-9

How else did China leapfrog so fast to reach parity?

https://freebeacon.com/national-security/china-hacked-f22-f35-jet-secrets/

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kz9xgn/man-who-sold-f-35-secrets-to-china-pleads-guilty

https://www.investors.com/partner-perspective/currents-of-disruption-tech-and-media-going-vertical-going-global/

Oh no, China and it’s dastardly companies are resorting to the devious espionage techniques of buying technology and hiring people from other companies in an open market, stuff decent normal non Chinese countries and companies would never be caught soiling their good reputations with ::). No real legit technology companies do this, no siree. Poaching and mimicking what your competitor is doing? Unheard of!
 
kcran567 said:
Yeah, but the level they do it at is monumental in scope.
Are we complaining about the rules of the game or are we complaining about it’s results? I think there’s a strong case to be made (though far from foolproof) that there are implicit and explicit norms of conduct for economic and technological competition that China is deliberately ignoring. However, it’s unreasonable to expect any country to comply to codes of conduct that are meant for the deliberate result of knee capping their chances to reach parity or be competitive though, and a bit disingenuous to begrudge countries for agitating against such arrangements. Trying to impose such expectations is likely to get more non compliance, not less. One wonders why so much of China’s technology trasfer and espionage efforts focus so much on state of the art materials, semiconductors, and aerospace.
 
LowObservable said:
What makes the espionage argument moot - at least at the level of public knowledge, and probably at the level of knowledge possessed by the Western IC - is that while the J-20 clearly looks a lot like an F-22, and uses the same LO design philosophy, all the visible features could have been copied from open sources, a decade or more before the first flight. For example....

http://www.f22fighter.com/AffordableStealth.pdf

Chinese engineers, therefore, would have had several years in which to reverse-engineer visible features, understand their importance and work out how to manufacture them before J-20 development started. For example "how do we make an optically acceptable frameless canopy?" could have been a challenge set in 1997.

The J-20 appeared at the end of 2010. On typical Western timescales, this would have meant that development started in 2004-05 with PDR or equivalent in 2006-07. However, this is somewhat earlier than the point at which anyone started to talk about cyber-espionage as a big deal - we started hearing about the Advanced Persistent Threat in 2008.

Considering how many burgeoning stealth fighter programmes these days seem to emulate F-22 and F-35 design features (the KFXs, TFXs, F-3s, AMCAs of the world) one also has to wonder whether the convergence of performance requirements and limitations of technology would also mean certain design features simply work the best, or are the lowest risk.

Personally I think it will be interesting if all of those stealth fighters do end up being developed the way their concepts have been floated. It would mark a nice return almost to WWII propeller biplane days when the majority of fighters (single engine propeller biplane types) all looked very similar to each other with near identical configurations, but where everyone also recognized they were also their own distinct aircraft through the combination of small details.

In time, perhaps F-35, FC-31, KFX, TFX etc will all be acknowledged as being uniquely different aircraft just as Spitfire, Me 109, P-51 and A6M Zero all were even though they may all share the broadly similar configuration.
 
Blitzo said:
LowObservable said:
What makes the espionage argument moot - at least at the level of public knowledge, and probably at the level of knowledge possessed by the Western IC - is that while the J-20 clearly looks a lot like an F-22, and uses the same LO design philosophy, all the visible features could have been copied from open sources, a decade or more before the first flight. For example....

http://www.f22fighter.com/AffordableStealth.pdf

Chinese engineers, therefore, would have had several years in which to reverse-engineer visible features, understand their importance and work out how to manufacture them before J-20 development started. For example "how do we make an optically acceptable frameless canopy?" could have been a challenge set in 1997.

The J-20 appeared at the end of 2010. On typical Western timescales, this would have meant that development started in 2004-05 with PDR or equivalent in 2006-07. However, this is somewhat earlier than the point at which anyone started to talk about cyber-espionage as a big deal - we started hearing about the Advanced Persistent Threat in 2008.

Considering how many burgeoning stealth fighter programmes these days seem to emulate F-22 and F-35 design features (the KFXs, TFXs, F-3s, AMCAs of the world) one also has to wonder whether the convergence of performance requirements and limitations of technology would also mean certain design features simply work the best, or are the lowest risk.

Personally I think it will be interesting if all of those stealth fighters do end up being developed the way their concepts have been floated. It would mark a nice return almost to WWII propeller biplane days when the majority of fighters (single engine propeller biplane types) all looked very similar to each other with near identical configurations, but where everyone also recognized they were also their own distinct aircraft through the combination of small details.

In time, perhaps F-35, FC-31, KFX, TFX etc will all be acknowledged as being uniquely different aircraft just as Spitfire, Me 109, P-51 and A6M Zero all were even though they may all share the broadly similar configuration.
Perhaps we are seeing design convergence because we are now reaching the limits of what the current propulsion technologies allow for. There was a lot more room to explore novel and different designs when jet engines were new on the block and offering new power margins that allowed for a greater degree of experimentation (and also the range of workable conditions in the more extreme envelopes of flight are much less forgiving).
 
latenlazy said:
Perhaps we are seeing design convergence because we are now reaching the limits of what the current propulsion technologies allow for. There was a lot more room to explore novel and different designs when jet engines were new on the block and offering new power margins that allowed for a greater degree of experimentation.

I think limitations in terms of technology, funding, and broadly similar performance parameters are part of the reason for the crop of current 5th gen projects. In terms of technology, I think propulsion, aerodynamic/flight control system and rf stealth technology all come together to pose a combined technological limit at the current stage.

I think we are also starting to see some divergence in terms of 5+ gen or near 6th gen designs, some of which may be completely tailless, some of which may have tails, some of which may be somewhere between the two etc, as new technologies and not-yet-concrete performance goals begin to be developed for the next generation.

Flying wing UCAVs/UAVs have also reached a certain level of design convergence, and I expect flying wing UCAV designs to remain broadly static going forwards into the future.
 
latenlazy said:
Blitzo said:
sferrin said:
You're really going to play dumb here? Okay, well you have fun with that. Personally I'll take "oafish and clumsy" over dangerously naive.

You can totally air complaints and concern if the tides of military development make you concerned over the way that geopolitical competition may go.

But that also means you'll be giving up any moral authority regarding the sanctity of "poaching and mimicking what your competitor is doing".
In other words, you're basically saying that you don't necessarily have an issue with the act of poaching/mimicking/etc itself in terms of military or technological development, but rather that you dislike it when a competitor does it.

Exactly. Maybe we need to be giving some serious thought about whether our much vaunted and extolled standards and virtues were just for show self justifications when things were convenient, or whether we are actually serious about them.

I personally have no issue with people having their own standards and virtues and their own double standards because that's just a part of life, but seeing as this forum is mostly about aerospace technology without a significant geopolitical slant I generally would appreciate some kind of internal consistency as far as standards and virtues are concerned, if simply to facilitate more productive discussion.
 
Blitzo said:
latenlazy said:
Perhaps we are seeing design convergence because we are now reaching the limits of what the current propulsion technologies allow for. There was a lot more room to explore novel and different designs when jet engines were new on the block and offering new power margins that allowed for a greater degree of experimentation.

I think limitations in terms of technology, funding, and broadly similar performance parameters are part of the reason for the crop of current 5th gen projects. In terms of technology, I think propulsion, aerodynamic/flight control system and rf stealth technology all come together to pose a combined technological limit at the current stage.

I think we are also starting to see some divergence in terms of 5+ gen or near 6th gen designs, some of which may be completely tailless, some of which may have tails, some of which may be somewhere between the two etc, as new technologies and not-yet-concrete performance goals begin to be developed for the next generation.

Flying wing UCAVs/UAVs have also reached a certain level of design convergence, and I expect flying wing UCAV designs to remain broadly static going forwards into the future.

It’s really too early to know what kinematic direction 6th gen fighter’s will take, I think, because we simply don’t know enough about the nature of combat by which these machines will be designed for. We don’t have enough data on how 5th generation fighters operate and perform in real live scenarios. For now I view most of these 6th gen mockups we’re seeing as speculative and exploratory designs. I think it will be a while before anything concrete comes from the concepts various aerospace design firms are throwing against the wall.
 
New Chinese stealth fighter

https://i.imgur.com/LrPtexU.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/JjPAOhD.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uRqr6o0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pHGVJ19.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vsqUSt8.jpg

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh............
 
kcran567 said:
Does a Zebra have stripes?

Where China was behind whether in wing tech or materials or structural tech they clearly used spying and espionage through corporate employees and students, maybe even outright buying the tech or bribing employees with "honeypots" or cash. It happened. And so did the "cyber" espionage before it became well known.
China now can go their own direction and even start to lead in certain areas, but they will still use all means of espionage to get what they need (physical infiltration, cyber hacking, student and employee theft of data) in many cases the tech is being given to them just to get access to Chinese markets.

They are experts of copying tech, see the J-15
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-rips-chinas-j-15-fighter-jet-which-beijing-stole-from-moscow-2018-9

How else did China leapfrog so fast to reach parity?

https://freebeacon.com/national-security/china-hacked-f22-f35-jet-secrets/

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kz9xgn/man-who-sold-f-35-secrets-to-china-pleads-guilty

https://www.investors.com/news/who-is-behind-the-lockheed-f-35-boeing-p-8-hack/

The first two examples cited here reinforce my thesis that China started hauling in lots of cyber-intel at a point where the J-20 had to be at the final-conceptual-design stage. Cyber could have helped solve development issues but probably didn't make the airplane any different, because, in 2008, future cyber couldn't be relied upon to address unsolved problems.

The third example is amusing. I recall cautioning a couple of Australian fans of You Know What, at least one of whom worked for a small sub, that they shouldn't go around bragging about their insider knowledge ("look mate, if you aren't cleared into the program you can't understand how good it is") on social media. Guess I was right. Again.

Copying is part of the evolution of engineered products: think Vigilante, TSR.2, MiG-25 or every commercial airplane that looks like the 367-80. Cars like the VW Golf were inspired by the BMC Mini and 1100, but added new features that made them work better (for example, electric fans and forward-facing radiators). We'd have very little progress if people didn't copy stuff.

The bits that can be, and are kept secret, or that are just plain hard to copy, are (1) the parts and materials on the inside of the mold line and (2) how things are made. The former category (in the case of a stealth airplane) includes RAM, seals, how doors work, apertures &c. The latter category includes the art of achieving a very accurate OML.

In the J-20, we just don't know how many of these design challenges were met by engineering, or even reverse-engineering from the OML, and how many solutions were significantly aided by espionage. We do know that Chengdu and the PLA customer had to be pretty confident that solutions were within reach before the big tide of cyber stuff started rolling in, with the help of Australian and other braggarts.
 
Ares said:
New Chinese stealth fighter

https://i.imgur.com/LrPtexU.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/JjPAOhD.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uRqr6o0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pHGVJ19.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vsqUSt8.jpg

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh............

Not quite. Seems to be a generic 5th generation fighter model for a company making components.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom