Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS

F-22 meets BAe Replica, and everything gets rear-ended by a T-50.

I really hope it will look closer to the Replica, which in my opinion is the best looking project ever designed.
That is, if this effort will ever proceed to anything substantial.

Regards.
 
CiTrus90 said:
F-22 meets BAe Replica, and everything gets rear-ended by a T-50. [...]
Yes, this concept is quite inspired by other "6th gen fighters. It might be last two manned aircraft of the Western world.
Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-studying-manned-successor-for-german-tornados-426634/
 

Attachments

  • Airbus_FCAS_6Gen_fighter_June_2016_810x569.jpg
    Airbus_FCAS_6Gen_fighter_June_2016_810x569.jpg
    75.5 KB · Views: 1,258
Well...

Let's see who the Germans partnered with on the Tornado? Maybe they'll partner again.

Royal Air Force? Nope - they're replacing their Tornado's and Harriers w/F-35's.
Italian Air Force? Nope - they leased Tornado's from the UK but replaced those w/F16's when the lease was up. Now they're getting F-35's.
Royal Saudi Air Force? Maybe - they've got 150 or so F-15's with another ~80 odd coming + ~70 Typhoons. Who knows.

The Germans need jets. They need to work well w/NATO. Why not purchase 65 F-35's until you get it figured out. They can get the jets (and the production jobs) that the Canadians don't seem to want. They'll probably do a great job on the parts.

The state of their equipment is as bad as the United States - unfortunately. I'll include a graphic from a report published a couple of years ago. It's likely the situation hasn't improved since then.
 

Attachments

  • Screen Shot 2016-06-24 at 10.19.58 PM.png
    Screen Shot 2016-06-24 at 10.19.58 PM.png
    110.6 KB · Views: 352
I don't see this going ahead without external partners, I suppose its possible the French might get on board, but right now this seems a niche product. As a competitor to F-35 it has little chance though it might appeal to India if they wanted a dedicated strike platform.
Also, using Eurofighter components might not be that easy or straightforward and I guess the avionics would be quite different for a strike role and UCAV node.
Another factor is Airbus DS really capable of such a programme? The Atlas programme is way behind schedule and seemingly never far from problems of some sort and given that it has a large market largely to itself it hasn't really sold on the export market.
 
I've always seen Japanese requirements as being closer to Britain's if we are looking at joint-development.
 
mrmalaya said:
I've always seen Japanese requirements as being closer to Britain's if we are looking at joint-development.

Requirements for what?
Japanese requirements are for an F-22 equivalent (enphasis on air superiority role).
Their current demonstrator is essentially a lightweight sub-scale test bed for a future fighter/ interceptor; long way from deep penetration striker" aircraft.

Rather different to strike-tailored Tornado replacement, especially if going for a subsonic platform.

The F-35 and advanced UCAVs likely to leave little room or money for a new aircraft in this class.
Perhaps way down the line the US Programes (lead by or exclusive to the US) to replace the F-22 & Super Hornet will lead to such an aircraft emerging but the Tornados are all likely to be gone by then.

Germany likely to make do with its Eurofighters (including as Tornado replacement) for a very long time; may buy small numbers of a stealthy UCAV (product of UK/French developments, with token German involvement) as a complement. If not a small F-35 buy possible but unlikely.
 
Yes I was being too general and I apologise.

However it is my opinion that a follow on fighter project deriving from this technology demonstrator will have potential as an RAF Typhoon replacement.

It is all decades away so I don't see how one can be any more specific than that, but clearly we are talking about a Euro project and I was simply saying that I thought Japanese efforts might be more attractive elsewhere.
 
Another illustration from AirbusDS shows how the FCAS network would 'scale' upwards. Note external fuel tanks and Meteors. (AirbusDS).
Source: http://www.aerosociety.com/News/Insight-Blog/4514/Airbus-reveals-Tornado-successor-concept-for-2040s
 

Attachments

  • Airbus_FCAS_6Gen_fighter_July_2016.jpg
    Airbus_FCAS_6Gen_fighter_July_2016.jpg
    79.3 KB · Views: 740
http://www.popsci.com/jet-fighter-2040s-is-stealthy-drone-herder
 
More informative article: http://www.aerosociety.com/News/Insight-Blog/4514/Airbus-reveals-Tornado-successor-concept-for-2040s#gallery[m]/0/
 
http://www.slideshare.net/robbinlaird/eurofighter-briefing-june-2016
 
Note the designation NGWS - Next Gen Weapon System
 

Attachments

  • Airbus NGWS.jpg
    Airbus NGWS.jpg
    191.1 KB · Views: 921
  • 8-1.jpg
    8-1.jpg
    8.9 KB · Views: 884
  • 8-6.jpg
    8-6.jpg
    39.2 KB · Views: 897
Note fast-packs a-la Silent Eagle with weapon bays.
 
This is an interesting schematic. As much as it has Barracuda and Sagitta on it, the manned jet does have details on it which appear to be part of a genuine design, not just artwork.

The idea of being able to plug into a system of systems would appeal to many forces. I suppose the key difference is whether you plan for two seats or one (depending on autonomy of UCAV).
 
...
 

Attachments

  • 54-.jpg
    54-.jpg
    81.1 KB · Views: 686
Where did you find that picture flateric? Technical paper? Looks like there's a few differences beyond the obvious 2D nozzle.
 
Whilst speaking to some LM senior people lately they indicated Germany is talking to LM re potential F-35 options here.
 
Just to reference my post above about Japan and the UK developing a fighter with the story running in AW about just such a project:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,28790.0.html

Not gloating, just a little smug.
 
red admiral said:
Where did you find that picture flateric? Technical paper? Looks like there's a few differences beyond the obvious 2D nozzle.
http://aerospace-europe.eu/media/books/CEAS2015_119.pdf
 
GTX said:
Whilst speaking to some LM senior people lately they indicated Germany is talking to LM re potential F-35 options here.

Pretty obvious choice. I doubt Germany has the political will, money or capability to develop a new aircraft like this.
 
The picture is captioned as a generic design so I don't think we can read too much into it, the forward fuselage/cockpit area looks very much like an F-22, probably really is just a concept 3D artwork based on existing planforms as an example.

If Airbus' support for Eurofighter really has been so poor with Germany and Austria, and relations with the German defence ministry strained, then its no surprise they are looking elsewhere. With the rest of NATO heading towards the F-35 it makes sense for Germany to procure some to replace Tornado.
 
Aerospace giant Airbus is planning a next-generation European fighter jet, the group's defence chief said Friday, hoping to profit from the Old Continent's renewed commitment to reach NATO defence spending targets.

"We are currently putting together pre-design studies to show what such an aircraft could look like," Airbus Defence and Space chief executive Dirk Hoke told German business daily Handelsblatt. "We're speaking very intensively with European governments.

Rest the the link, no images, and a very rough outline of whats going on..
http://www.journal-aviation.com/en/news/36210-airbus-hopes-to-build-new-european-fighter-jet
 
Germany asks U.S. for classified briefing on Lockheed's F-35 fighter

By Andrea Shalal | BERLIN

The German Air Force this month sent the U.S. military a written request for classified data on the
Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) F-35 fighter jet as it gears up to replace its current fleet of fighter
jets from 2025 to 2035.

The letter, sent by the Air Force's planning command and seen by Reuters, makes clear that the
German government has not yet authorized a procurement program and is not committed to any
particular aircraft to replace its current warplanes.

It said the defense ministry would carry out "an in-depth evaluation of market available solutions,
including the F-35, later this year," with a formal "letter of request" to be issued in coming months.

Germany's interest in the F-35 - the Pentagon's most advanced warplane and its costliest
procurement program - may surprise some given that it is part of the four-nation consortium that
developed the fourth-generation Eurofighter Typhoon, which continues to compete for new orders.

The Eurofighter is built by Airbus (AIR.PA) as well as Britain's BAE Systems (BAES.L) and Leonardo
(LDOF.MI) of Italy.

Germany will need to replace its current fleet of fourth-generation warplanes - Tornadoes in use
since 1981 and Eurofighters - between 2025 and 2035. The F-35 is considered a fifth-generation
fighter given stealth capabilities that allow it to evade enemy radars.

Berlin's letter also comes amid growing tensions between the West and Russia over Moscow's
support for separatists in eastern Ukraine, with NATO officials saying that Russian naval activity
now exceeds levels seen even during the Cold War.

Britain, the Netherlands, Norway, Turkey and Italy - key NATO allies of Germany - are already
buying the F-35 fighter jet to replace their current aircraft, and other European countries
such as Switzerland, Belgium and Finland are also looking at purchasing the fifth-generation warplane.

Germany's gesture may be aimed at strengthening its hand in negotiations with its European
partners over the scale and timing of development of a next generation of European fighters.
Any moves to buy a U.S. built warplane could run into political resistance in Germany, which has strong
labor unions.

But military sources say buying the F-35 could make sense for Germany given steady declines in the
cost of the U.S. jets, and technical challenges with the Eurofighter.

EIGHT-HOUR BRIEFING

In the letter, the Air Force said a small team of air force officers was gathering data to prepare for
a detailed analysis of alternatives for a new warplane.

The group was working closely with the ministry's "Task Force Future Air Combat System," which
aims to make a recommendation for a political decision in mid-2018, the letter said.

"In order to understand (the) F-35's cutting-edge technologies, the German Air Force is requesting
a classified brief of the F-35's capabilities in general and especially concerning sensor suites,
information management and operational capabilities," the letter said.

The letter said a video conference suggested by U.S. officials in Bonn would help speed up the process.

A source familiar with U.S. weapons programs said the classified briefing requested by Germany
would likely last around eight hours.

Since Germany is not part of the international consortium that funded development of the stealthy
new fighter, the request for classified information must first be approved by the U.S. government,
but U.S. officials said they did not expect any problems securing the needed marketing license.

The Pentagon's F-35 program office said it had received the letter and was "working to support the
German Air Force request."

Lockheed referred questions to the State Department, which oversees foreign military sales, and
the Pentagon. Spokesman Michael Rein said it would be inappropriate for Lockheed to comment
since any potential sales would be negotiated between the two governments.

The F-35 is in operational use by the U.S. Marine Corps and the U.S. Air Force, which last month
carried out its first operational deployment of a small number of jets to Estonia for training with
other U.S. and NATO military aircraft.

The U.S. Air Force this month also announced this month that it plans to bring the F-35 to the
Paris Air Show in June.

(Reporting by Andrea Shalal; Editing by Keith Weir and Mark Potter)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-lockheed-fighter-germany-exclusive-idUSKCN18D13X
 
Pure speculation on my part but this comes closely on the heels of Eurofighters having lots of trouble with 5th Gen stealth at the latest exercises.
 
More speculation:

Maybe Sandia's B61-12 vibration, acoustics, and temperature testing on the PA-200 revealed some issues.

In any event, PA-200 will likely need a concerted SEAD effort to permit its System 1 (analog/ballistic) only deliery of B61-12.
 
Let's face it, this will end up as a European Program
because Germany has not budget to singel-handedly build such Aircraft
They will looking for partners and have same trouble with Tornado or Eurofighter development
Too much meddling partners and fraction that quit the program

They give Airbus the order to develop new fighter
and Airbus screw it up, extrem cost overrun, years of delays, prototype failure and serial model unusable for some minor reason
see Eurofighter and that Transporter nightmare they build

German Government or BundesWehr would be better off
If they join forces with French and build modified Rafale that do job like Tornado
 
bobbymike said:
Pure speculation on my part but this comes closely on the heels of Eurofighters having lots of trouble with 5th Gen stealth at the latest exercises.

I had read that they worked together rather than flew against each other?

Germany, unique amongst the partners, is having trouble running its Eurofighter fleet and will probably have trouble running the next fleet too if you believe their press reports.
 
bobbymike said:
Pure speculation on my part but this comes closely on the heels of Eurofighters having lots of trouble with 5th Gen stealth at the latest exercises.

Not necessarily a link (though it may help sway the decision). Some senior LM reps told me earlier this year that the Germans were talking to them re the F-35
 
Would make perfect sense. The Germans have never been shy to consider or buy American aircraft at any point since 1955. The only difference now is that German-licence production is impossible for something like the F-35.
Airbus hasn't the track record to attempt going alone and while a Dassault partnership is not unthinkable it seems with Neuron etc. that the French are looking at the opposite solution rather than developing a Rafale replacement (though I suspect they will investigate that before the 2030s). A BAE partnership might make sense if Britain wanted to replace its Typhoons but a dual-nation programme is still going to be too expensive and with Italy and Britain already buying F-35s and Spain likely to fall in that camp too, there isn't enough critical mass within Europe for a repeat of Eurofighter or Tornado.
 
I agree.

Those dates are so close together and eminently moveable, that there is still a high likelihood of Germany joining a European (and Britain still counts in this sense) project.

I can see why enquiries of LM are exciting, and perhaps that the F35 is more likely than the Airbus offering, but it is not the only show in town.

Put another way, what will Germany replace it's Typhoons with?
 
mrmalaya said:
I agree.

Those dates are so close together and eminently moveable, that there is still a high likelihood of Germany joining a European (and Britain still counts in this sense) project.

I can see why enquiries of LM are exciting, and perhaps that the F35 is more likely than the Airbus offering, but it is not the only show in town.

Put another way, what will Germany replace it's Typhoons with?

I would agree that the a longer term pan-European project to eventually replace rather than supplement the existing Typhoons, Rafales, Gripens, etc would appear more likely than a nearer-term project in time to replace remaining German Tornadoes.
Germans would appear to have a choice between the F-35, moderately upgraded Typhoon or Rafale, or (very long-shot) the joint UK-France UCAV project if makes it to "metal" stage with the required time frame.
Small-ish F-35 buy combined with long term serious commitment to European successor to Typhoon may just be politically palitable enough for them.
 
There have been a couple of developments on the DCA front that may factor in:

Some of recent public statements on the B61-12 are attributing to it a longer lifespan that previously mentioned:
longer than the notional SLEP for the Tornado.

B61-12 integration on the F-35 will begin, definitively, with the Block 4.1 configuration next year.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom