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Author Topic: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS  (Read 51253 times)

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2015, 06:40:37 am »
I don't want to get into a "nothing's been signed, so nothing is happening" debate- it's Christmas.

It is obvious that FCAS will lead to a UCAV by 2030. I think that there are some in the UK who are quite happy with Taranis and not keen to share too much with the French (because BAE et al have tried for decades to keep their work secret).

The other fact is that Typhoon bow out around 2040. The French are likely to keep their Rafale going that long, again because they have no alternative. If these are not replaced by a European design then the industry is dead. I would suggest that Airbus is struggling to fit in to these plans and consequently we see the call for a Tornado replacement which they might be able to do something about.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2015, 03:00:28 pm »
As much as I would love FCAS to be aimed at replacing Typhoon/Rafale, I have yet to read anything saying this is the case.

You will however find lots and lots of statements and articles about it being a UCAV programme:

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/show-daily/paris-air-show/2015/06/15/drone-combat-britain-france-italy-germany-study-fighter-jets-male-uav/71113960/

"BAE Systems, Dassault Aviation, Rolls-Royce, Safran, Selex and Thales signed up for the two-year Anglo-French study for the UCAV."

That said, there is the occasional muttering from the UK about manned versus unmanned mix. FCAS is not however influenced by a theoretical commitment not to cut the F35 buy, and FOAS was supposed to be looking at manned/unmanned and look where that got us!

Also an AW article repeating the same but talking about airframe and propulsion choices for the UCAV:

http://aviationweek.com/defense/fcas-study-decide-ucav-planform-engine-year
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 12:02:36 am by mrmalaya »

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2015, 05:00:39 pm »
I don't want to get into a "nothing's been signed, so nothing is happening" debate- it's Christmas.

Speaking of Yuletide Glow,  will this Tornado replacement be dual capable? 

Offline sferrin

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2015, 08:03:12 pm »
The Americans bless them have asked many times for certain technology, because we have answers to some of their more troublesome conundrums.

Given the vast disparity in experience I'd be curious what this might be related to. 
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2015, 12:09:42 am »
Ian33, your Taranis sources says what we all think if you ask me. Whilst Europe produces flashy videos and shows the world what it has achieved, BAE says little.

The only detailed article on the project was in AW, with Bill Sweetman offering some thoughts as to why it might be different from other publicly acknowledged UCAV programmes.

One of the above articles notes that an airframe selection is imminent with UK and France continuing to develop parallel aircraft!

Marauder2048, I don't see why not, Santa has a long way to go before Germany gets the present they want.

Offline red admiral

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2015, 01:58:57 am »
Given the vast disparity in experience I'd be curious what this might be related to.

Likely specific areas rather than general advancement. Difference in experience is related to what the US has brought to service. The UK has had LO design and development activities for many decades (back to 50s) - just not need, funding or political will to bring them to serbice.

There's got to be a benefit for the US in cooperating with the UK on this subject e.g. Project Churchill, new activity now.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2015, 02:39:25 am »
JFC Fuller, lets not argue (neither of us is in possession of all the facts and in the interests of festive harmony I have no wish to bang on). Either way its all to the good, provided they don't decide to stick with the F35 beyond what is currently needed.

It will be interesting to see what shape the UCAV designs take imminently and if they proceed to a demonstrator it has to be assumed that it will offer significantly more than the current two.

Perhaps an optionally manned design keeps all doors open. Will the propulsion duo manage to make the leap forward in energy generation that a 2030s airframe will require?

Answers which Germany may discover in 2016.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2016, 03:01:54 am »
A development in the realm of FCAS (although if there is a better place to post this, please let me know).

The UK MOD yesterday confirmed the following:

“We will work with France to develop an advanced Unmanned Combat Air System technology demonstrator, and with the United States to mature other high-end technologies,” it says. “Additionally, we will pursue a national technology programme to maintain the UK’s position as a global leader in this area.”

What are "high-end technologies" I wonder?

Article here:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/life-of-raf-tornado-squadron-further-extended-to-201-420923/

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2016, 04:57:21 am »
Everyone a cynic! :)

Building a demonstrator for the technology is surely logical though and was always part of the plan? New distributed sensors, engines and airframe planform for the UCAV all need a thorough demonstration.

To me, this is confirmation that the plan is progressing as originally suggested when they signed the agreement.

I think it's still sensible to see this as an extension of the FOAS Tornado replacement (and therefore eminently relevant to the topic) its just that its a Typh-ado replacement mixed in with post 2010 politics.

This from HM Government in March 2014:

The Future Combat Air System (FCAS) programme will subsequently be responsible for the development of a UCAV capability. A two year national FCAS programme has been launched which aims to inform the forthcoming SDSR on the most appropriate force mix of platforms and systems in order to meet the future combat air requirement from 2030. A UCAV along the lines of Taranis is one potential element of this force mix, along with an additional buy of Lightning II, a Typhoon life extension or an alternative new-build manned aircraft. This will allow a decision to be made at the next SDSR about whether to commit to a UCAV development programme.

Lessons from the Watchkeeper programme have been applied to both the Taranis TDP and the national FCAS programme. The need to develop an early understanding of airworthiness certification requirements was a key lesson from the Watchkeeper programme. A specific package of work has been included within the national FCAS programme to address this challenge.

Any follow-on operational UCAV, which forms part of the future combat air force mix, would contribute to the UK's combat air and ISTAR capabilities. Key attributes of a UCAV would include the ability to undertake long range missions and to provide high levels of persistence and survivability in a contested environment featuring advanced air and ground threat systems. These attributes of range, persistence and survivability coupled with an advanced suite of sensors and weapons should permit a UCAV to make a major contribution to the provision of precise attack and ISTAR capabilities for the UK."

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmselect/cmdfence/611/61104.htm

« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 05:09:35 am by mrmalaya »

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2016, 05:18:43 am »
Yes FOAS is dead and replaced by FCAS (in spirit if not specific use of letters in its title).

The big delay (because the technology and political will was not there) happened under FOAS and now progress is being made.

If they are not ready to build it, then the industry must be sustained. So we are in agreement.

The Cameron government are big fans of RPAS and I expect the only significant change in the timing is that they have committed to supporting the next phase of FCAS (a flying UCAV) a few months early.




Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2016, 05:30:00 am »
I wish you the best of days.

Lets hope it all turns out wonderfully!

Until next time....

Offline Reaper

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2016, 11:40:24 am »
Why would you need a Tornado replacement in the first place. Ok, the Germans arent so sure about Russia anymore, but a Eurofighter with all relevant weapons integrated should do the trick. Also when you would start now developing a new plane and would reach IOC in 2026+ then 2040 for phasing out the EF is also not that far away. Think of a Eurofighter replacement instead! Maybe call it Tornado replacement if it is more opportunistic for getting financial support!

Offline DrRansom

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2016, 12:36:46 pm »
If there isn't a new European fighter program in the next 10 - 20 years, I find it hard to believe that the Europeans will have a fighter industry at all.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2016, 01:47:36 pm »
That is the point behind all of this. I personally think its part of a continuing process that has seen Britain and France pushing their industrial bases to be able to produce their own future fighter.

Calling it a Typhoon/Tornado replacement is to suggest a manned platform. At this stage all the effort is going toward unmanned.

New fighter engines, sensors and materials developed for a large UCAV work just as well for a fighter in service for 2040 do they not?

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2016, 10:36:03 am »
That is the point behind all of this. I personally think its part of a continuing process that has seen Britain and France pushing their industrial bases to be able to produce their own future fighter.

Calling it a Typhoon/Tornado replacement is to suggest a manned platform. At this stage all the effort is going toward unmanned.

New fighter engines, sensors and materials developed for a large UCAV work just as well for a fighter in service for 2040 do they not?

There is an alternative and more cynical view motived by the fact that the German initiated European heavy lift helicopter program has now come down to a choice between the CH-47F and the CH-53K.