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Author Topic: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS  (Read 45721 times)

Offline Trident

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #225 on: November 10, 2017, 06:25:33 pm »
I'm not sure which variation with a wider engine separation you speak of, but I'm only talking about the concept shown in the video and the latest poster, whose underside is a flat block like J-20 and F-22 without separated engines and without a pancake.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,26320.msg302880.html#msg302880

The top one may well include a pancake (though more like the YF-23), while the bottom one probably lacks a tunnel but even has a tail sting (think Japanese 24DMU concept, itself a design which incorporates a number of YF-23 and Su-57 cues).

So overall, I can see why Su-57 is considered quite similar to this aircraft, in terms of control surfaces/main wing, but overall, combining the fuselage, control surfaces/main wing, and nose geometry, I think the closest foreign "cousin" is the J-20.

I dunno - it seems to me that (in very simplified terms) to turn the Su-57 into something very like the bottom Airbus concept, you'd "merely" have to fill the inlet tunnel  and cut off the horizontal stabilizers.

With the J-20 you'd have to cut off the Canards and move the engines apart (so far so good - similar scope of changes as with the Su-57), but then massively increase LERX size, add LEVCONs and completely alter their planform, move the intakes aft and switch to a different type, get rid of the ventral strakes and reshape the fins,...

The list is just a whole lot longer, without playing down the scale of the changes to the Su-57, of course (as mentioned in the beginning, the Airbus concept is a completely original design in its own right).
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 06:40:15 pm by Trident »

Offline Blitzo

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #226 on: November 10, 2017, 06:35:29 pm »
I'm not sure which variation with a wider engine separation you speak of, but I'm only talking about the concept shown in the video and the latest poster, whose underside is a flat block like J-20 and F-22 without separated engines and without a pancake.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,26320.msg302880.html#msg302880

The top one may well include a pancake (though more like the YF-23), while the bottom one probably lacks a tunnel but even has a tail sting (think Japanese 24DMU concept, itself a design which incorporates a number of YF-23 and Su-57 cues).

Ah I see.

Yes, the first one could possibly be sort of like YF-23 or 24DMU.

Though in this case, I was only talking about the newest iteration of their concept, which looks to have evolved from those previous proposals.

Offline Trident

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #227 on: November 11, 2017, 06:59:00 am »
Well, engine arrangement apart (pun intended), the bottom concept on that image and the one from the recent video are virtually identical.

Offline Blitzo

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #228 on: November 11, 2017, 03:13:21 pm »
Well, engine arrangement apart (pun intended), the bottom concept on that image and the one from the recent video are virtually identical.

hehe well done.

IMO engine arrangement is a pretty big difference for looking at how fighters, especially stealth fighters "look," given it basically dictates what the fuselage/body/wing arrangement will be like.
I think the engine nozzles on the recent concept from the video also shows round nozzles rather than flat, F119 style nozzles

Offline GTX

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #229 on: December 02, 2017, 09:46:09 am »
As shown at 2017 Berlin Security Conference :)

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #230 on: December 02, 2017, 12:49:19 pm »
They really pulled out the First XI graphics team on that one.

Offline Reaper

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #231 on: December 02, 2017, 12:53:25 pm »
He, dont make fun of them! They got at least the right cross! ;)

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #232 on: December 03, 2017, 05:19:08 am »
I'm actually surprised that they didn't look up "German warplane insignia" on Google and make a really embarrassing mistake - although there's one forum member here who would love it!

Offline litzj

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #233 on: January 28, 2018, 01:45:50 am »
I briefly reviewed info. from you guys in https://jaesan-aero.blogspot.kr/

TEXT are here

1. Lack of HT and TVC (not certain)

- There is no emphasis on Air-Air Combat or Manuever; OML of the concept seem to be optimized for high speed cruise and LO performance, like YF-23 did (wing-planform is more similar to F-16XL).

- Control surface on the LE like Pak-Fa probably provides least maneuverability for this fighter; this wing-planform and layout of control surface is not for sustained fight, but for instantaneous fight.


2. No emphasis on weapon delivery or 'killer role' of the fighter

- It seems to have at least more than one internal weapon bay (from vids, only one central bay and no-side bays). But vids did not show anything related to it. Vids gave strength on Network capability; providing information, penetration of enemy air-area. Finalizing information and delivering weapon for destruction are probably done by unmanned or cruise missiles.

- not like US' way, Airbus want this fighter to do lead 'Hunt', not 'Kill'. This aircraft seems to have two crew members; it means secondary crew focuses on gathering information and commanding other friendly asset to lead missions.

- If this assumption is true, internal weapon bay or bays are not big enough to contain 'expensive weapons', like NSM, Taurus, Storm-shadow, JASSM. Maybe, Airbus thought minimizing weapon bay could save cost of this fighter. Weapon bay of the fighter probably load relatively light weapons, Meteor, self-defense IRIS-T, or Advanced or replacement version of AGM-88s.


3. Very Large Wing Planform for Long-Time Endurance?

- While it has larger wing planform than similar-size-jet, it only emphasize on 'ISR', 'Leading Friendly Asset'. There is nothing about 'Super-cruise', 'Delivering Silver Bullet on enemy's heart', 'Dramatic Air Combat'.

- Fancy high speed, weapon bay, high-thrust engine, and TVC things cost money and weight of the platform. Maybe if saved weight is changed to fuel and combined with fuel-economy engine, it could achieve extremely long range and endurance than its counter-part.

- From estimation of position of components (weapon bay, LD), extremely large LERX, and nose-cone shape, it probably highly unstable and could achieve low trim drag and high L/D for its mission.


Conclusion of Estimation

- 5 or 6th gen. fighter cannot be cheap, but this concept decisively give up few fancy things escalating cost, and try to save cost and number of required fighters. Few roles, delivering weapon, air-combat, should be done by other conventional jets.

- In given cost, it focuses on 'Endurance', 'ISR', 'Commanding' role in danger area.

- If this concept is right, Airbus targets a small number of production in reasonable cost.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #234 on: January 30, 2018, 11:20:38 pm »
Its name is a killing word.

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #235 on: January 31, 2018, 12:46:09 am »
on the Tweet source
Christian Thiels is correspondent for "Tagesschau", Germany's main daily television news, provided by ARD
I love Strange Technology

Offline flateric

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« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 12:06:16 pm by flateric »
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Offline TomcatViP

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #237 on: August 25, 2018, 05:38:47 pm »
So there is a plenum around the nozzle  that seems also to be 3d TVC. No apparent third stream but the advanced multidisciplinary modelling technique suggests something advanced:

these include multi-disciplinary methods and simulations in the design of engine concepts
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 05:41:52 pm by TomcatViP »