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Author Topic: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS  (Read 45723 times)

Offline muttbutt

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Germany plans to develop a new fighter jet to replace Tornado jets in the long term and it aims to hold initial talks with European partners in 2016 about what features they want in the aircraft, according to a document seen by Reuters on Sunday.

A draft document from the Defence Ministry on 'military aviation strategy' said it was still unclear whether the new jet would be manned or unmanned. It said it was also possible that the jet would be designed for both options and then be flown with or without a pilot depending on the type of deployment.

As it would be a European project, it is likely that one or more European companies would be chosen to develop the jet. The Tornado jet, which Germany has been using since 1981 - although it now also has the newer Eurofighter jet - was also made in an international consortium called Panavia.

At the same time, Germany's armed forces are looking into whether it would be possible to extend usage of the Tornado jets into the mid-2030s, the paper said.

The Tornado jets had been due to be phased out in the mid-2020s.

A spokesman for the Defence Ministry said the document had not yet been agreed with the other ministries so he could not comment on it.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-defence-jet-idUKKBN0U30PS20151220
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 05:29:53 pm by PaulMM (Overscan) »

Offline FighterJock

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2015, 11:07:45 am »
Germany plans to develop a new fighter jet to replace Tornado jets in the long term and it aims to hold initial talks with European partners in 2016 about what features they want in the aircraft, according to a document seen by Reuters on Sunday.

A draft document from the Defence Ministry on 'military aviation strategy' said it was still unclear whether the new jet would be manned or unmanned. It said it was also possible that the jet would be designed for both options and then be flown with or without a pilot depending on the type of deployment.

As it would be a European project, it is likely that one or more European companies would be chosen to develop the jet. The Tornado jet, which Germany has been using since 1981 - although it now also has the newer Eurofighter jet - was also made in an international consortium called Panavia.

At the same time, Germany's armed forces are looking into whether it would be possible to extend usage of the Tornado jets into the mid-2030s, the paper said.

The Tornado jets had been due to be phased out in the mid-2020s.

A spokesman for the Defence Ministry said the document had not yet been agreed with the other ministries so he could not comment on it.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-defence-jet-idUKKBN0U30PS20151220

Interesting news.  I have always wanted a new European fighter to replace the Tornado properly, and yes I am old enough to remember the British led FOAS development program.

Offline sferrin

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2015, 11:09:37 am »
I wonder if the USN F/A-XX could fill this role.
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Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2015, 11:15:30 am »
I wonder if the USN F/A-XX could fill this role.

Probably but it wouldn't satisfy the
Quote
As it would be a European project, it is likely that one or more European companies would be chosen to develop the jet.
requirement.

Offline GTX

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2015, 11:38:37 am »
Unless the primary focus is European industrial support here, dare I say that the F-35 is the perfect option to replace their Tornadoes in the foreseeable future... ;)

Offline DrRansom

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2015, 11:45:42 am »
I was wondering when such a program would begin...

Without a next generation fighter/bomber program, European Aerospace companies would outright go out of the development business.

For the F-35 replacement, there is probably still the issue that the F-35's range isn't as good as a dedicated strike fighter could be. A Tornado replacement which begins as a pure strike fighter could possibly get a 2 x 2000lb bombload out to 800nm+. Considering that Europe is finding a requirement for bombing missions at range in the Mediterranean and North Africa, that extra range would be very helpful. 

Offline Avimimus

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2015, 11:59:28 am »
Interesting... range is quite the question - European strike aircraft traditionally tended to need a bit less range since Europe isn't that big  - but post Cold War thinking might emphasize other uses than defending against a Russian attack (as you mentioned).

A twin engined dedicated strike aircraft might have potential as a long range patrol aircraft or interceptor as well. It might lack the super-cruise capability, and it might lack manoeuvrability for WVR, but the airframe might have potential as an Arctic interceptor (aimed primarily at engaging intercontinental bombers and naval assets).

The big question would be how much the design would emphasize payload compared to interceptors - or how much it would emphasize smaller size, reduced costs, and supersonic performance at low altitudes. I suspect that the Mach 1.1 low altitude performance would be fairly achievable with modern engines (and anything higher than that would be prevented due to heating concerns). So, the really question is how big it would be ...and thus how much potential it has for development into a long range variant.

P.S. Of course, I'm thinking of Canadian requirements

Offline Avimimus

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2015, 12:01:52 pm »
Btw. It'd be interesting to start a thread on possible design influences. I know the British had a lot of 5th generation strike aircraft studies (although these are mostly still classified).

Offline Tony Williams

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2015, 12:32:09 pm »
One of my idle daydreams concerns a major development of the Tornado design in around 2000, mainly intended to increase the range by substantially increasing the internal fuel load as follows:
- split the central fuselage down the centreline and pull the engines apart to create a bay for internal weapons stowage and extra fuel
- lengthen the nose to provide space for more fuel
- add LERX to balance the longer nose, and fill them with sensors and illuminators
- fit a multi-function radar
- once flight-tested, make a new central fuselage (and maybe more) from carbon fibre to bring the weight back down again.

The intended result would be to allow the plane to fly most missions without any external weapons or fuel, thereby greatly reducing the drag (and incidentally the radar signature).
 
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Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2015, 12:41:34 pm »
This is so far from ever being a project as to barely be worth talking about.

Offline muttbutt

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2015, 12:43:24 pm »
This is so far from ever being a project as to barely be worth talking about.
When has that ever stopped us before? ;)

Offline red admiral

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2015, 12:44:55 pm »
Given that Germany puts military spending in such low priority its barely maintaining or developing the Typhoons it has, this announcement is firmly in the fantasy region for now. I don't see Germany spending $10-20bn on this soon.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2015, 12:48:44 pm »
One of my idle daydreams concerns a major development of the Tornado design in around 2000, mainly intended to increase the range by substantially increasing the internal fuel load as follows:
- split the central fuselage down the centreline and pull the engines apart to create a bay for internal weapons stowage and extra fuel
- lengthen the nose to provide space for more fuel
- add LERX to balance the longer nose, and fill them with sensors and illuminators
- fit a multi-function radar
- once flight-tested, make a new central fuselage (and maybe more) from carbon fibre to bring the weight back down again.

The intended result would be to allow the plane to fly most missions without any external weapons or fuel, thereby greatly reducing the drag (and incidentally the radar signature).

Careful! The guys over at APA have a proposed F-111 variant that you are wilfully infringing on with this thought exercise.

Offline sferrin

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2015, 12:52:01 pm »
One of my idle daydreams concerns a major development of the Tornado design in around 2000, mainly intended to increase the range by substantially increasing the internal fuel load as follows:
- split the central fuselage down the centreline and pull the engines apart to create a bay for internal weapons stowage and extra fuel
- lengthen the nose to provide space for more fuel
- add LERX to balance the longer nose, and fill them with sensors and illuminators
- fit a multi-function radar
- once flight-tested, make a new central fuselage (and maybe more) from carbon fibre to bring the weight back down again.

The intended result would be to allow the plane to fly most missions without any external weapons or fuel, thereby greatly reducing the drag (and incidentally the radar signature).

Careful! The guys over at APA have a proposed F-111 variant that you are wilfully infringing on with this thought exercise.

We could call it the FB-111H.  ;)  Add some stealthification. . .:

« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 12:57:45 pm by sferrin »
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Offline Ifor

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2015, 12:55:09 pm »
Forgive me, this would be fifth generation? We wouldn't be interested would we, F35? Would the French or Italians?