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Author Topic: 3D printing  (Read 28417 times)

Offline PlanesPictures

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3D printing
« on: July 01, 2014, 01:32:35 am »
Third test bed is near to close. I'm surprised how much small errors is in my older models. For rendering it was not problem but now I have to do only closed volumes. Next favorites are prepared

Offline blackkite

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2014, 04:11:48 am »
Oh you get 3D printer!  B)
I used to watch small 3D model of Pressurized water reactor steam generator.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 04:19:28 pm by blackkite »

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2014, 12:21:36 pm »

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2014, 10:04:40 am »
First "hot" 3D-model

Offline c460

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2014, 12:55:28 pm »
Hi,
Very beautiful model, is it the Vickers 559 ?
Adrien

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2014, 01:34:15 pm »
Of course, I like these heavy beauties (length 20.8 m and what about Northrop N-144  Lenght: 35,55 m - more as B-58B).
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 12:09:12 am by PlanesPictures »

Offline GTX

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2014, 12:46:12 am »
Another I would love to see in 1/48

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2014, 03:15:27 am »
In theory no problem. I will resize model 1.5x. What I will need to keep in mind is working box of 3D printer (near to 20x20x30 cm). Without rebuilding of model (thickenes 1 mm will be 1.5 mm) printed volume will be 2.25 of original volume and final price will be no less, too. But I want to do really unique collections. After first real printing on our concrete printer and notes of beta-tester we will produce next prepared models.

Offline sferrin

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2014, 04:18:27 am »
Of course, I like these heavy beauties (length 20.8 m and what about Northrop N-144  Lenght: 35,55 m - more as B-58B).
The N-167 is one of my favorites.  4 J-79s (like the B-58).
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Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2014, 04:38:00 am »
N-167 has already its own directory. N-176 is ready

Offline sferrin

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2014, 06:05:27 am »
Sweet!  Looking forward to it.  :)
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Offline GTX

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2014, 11:00:00 am »
I am really keen to see examples of the standard you hope to be printing at for these models.  Do you have any photos you can share?

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2014, 11:11:39 am »
I'm sorry I did not understand

Offline GTX

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2014, 11:24:52 am »
I am interested in the resolution and quality of the parts.  For example, will they be equivalent to those at click2detail?

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2014, 11:35:07 am »
Are these 3D prints going to be one-offs? Or are you going to turn them into kits that people can buy?

If the latter, you're better off making one print, doing a lot of cleanup to the parts, then having the parts cast in resin. For more than a dozen or so kits, that's cheaper... and the quality is also a lot better. As great as 3D printing is to make master parts, it's still not yet to where you can sell *quality* kits straight from the printer. Even the best printers have regrettable surface finishes.
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Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2014, 11:54:49 am »
More on used printer here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,22058.0.html


We suppose to sold them "äs is". I hope our plus will be good shape. Details will be in hand of modellers. Printed models will be only more or less known projects (CL-1000, Archangel, Kingfish, M-25, Tu-135) and only a few of real funs will like them.


We will start with test printing on end of August, 2014.





Offline sferrin

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2014, 08:03:57 am »
First "hot" 3D-model

What modeller do you use?
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Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2014, 09:46:25 am »
I use Rhinoceros

Offline tiikki

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2014, 11:02:04 pm »
Are these 3D prints going to be one-offs? Or are you going to turn them into kits that people can buy?

If the latter, you're better off making one print, doing a lot of cleanup to the parts, then having the parts cast in resin. For more than a dozen or so kits, that's cheaper... and the quality is also a lot better. As great as 3D printing is to make master parts, it's still not yet to where you can sell *quality* kits straight from the printer. Even the best printers have regrettable surface finishes.

I would disagree with that surface finish comment. The high end industrial models (price tag starting around 100 000€ or 135 000 USD) produce parts comparable to injection molding (I know that there are not all injection molding products are same quality). We are not talking about printers costing few thousands. But we shall see when the printing starts :)

The model kits will be a side project for my 3D-printing business in order to keep expensive machinery utilization rate as high as possible. My profits on this will be less than on printing for hire business, but smaller profit is better than no profit at all when machinery is idle. In printing for hire the most of the price comes from the cost of the printer, not from the material costs.
Short calculation: the loan has to be paid in 4 years, there are 12 months in each and each month has 4 weeks with 5 working days and each day has 8 business hours, so the machine has around 8000 hours to make at minimum 100 000€ in order to pay back the loan. So at minimum and full business hour usage (unrealistic) 12.5€/hour +depreciation+material+interest+rent+electricity+salaries+profit. With everything else, except material, factored in with realistic usage hours the hourly rate for the machine has to be above 100€. And printing is slow process... (So slow, that most of printer manufactures don't usually quote the speed of their machines in their public material.) In this side project I can do it lot cheaper as long as it doesn't hurt my main business.

In the case of resin, the material costs of printing are higher (I'd estimate it to be around order of magnitude on small business scale purchases), but amount of labor is lot less. In printing I can just push the button on printer at evening when I'm leaving and the printer prints the parts during night and on morning I collect them and put them in the washer and then some time later move them to drier.


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Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2014, 11:58:39 am »
first 3D models are printed out. So lets go totally rebuild them

Offline Hobbes

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2014, 12:58:33 pm »
Are these 3D prints going to be one-offs? Or are you going to turn them into kits that people can buy?

If the latter, you're better off making one print, doing a lot of cleanup to the parts, then having the parts cast in resin. For more than a dozen or so kits, that's cheaper... and the quality is also a lot better. As great as 3D printing is to make master parts, it's still not yet to where you can sell *quality* kits straight from the printer. Even the best printers have regrettable surface finishes.

I would disagree with that surface finish comment. The high end industrial models (price tag starting around 100 000€ or 135 000 USD) produce parts comparable to injection molding (I know that there are not all injection molding products are same quality). We are not talking about printers costing few thousands. But we shall see when the printing starts :)

Interesting. I've been using Shapeways to print some parts, and the prints I've received in their highest-resolution material (which they call FUD) are definitely not as smooth as an injection moulded model. I always have to do a bit of sanding to get a smooth finish.

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2014, 02:08:57 pm »
"are definitely not as smooth as an injection moulded model" - it will be payment for their unique

Offline tiikki

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2014, 09:39:24 am »

Interesting. I've been using Shapeways to print some parts, and the prints I've received in their highest-resolution material (which they call FUD) are definitely not as smooth as an injection moulded model. I always have to do a bit of sanding to get a smooth finish.

There are quality differences in injection moulding too :)
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Offline GTX

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2014, 12:15:22 pm »
Ho are you going with this and more importantly, when might there be kits available to purchase? 

Offline tiikki

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2014, 09:57:00 pm »
first 3D models are printed out. So lets go totally rebuild them
Ho are you going with this and more importantly, when might there be kits available to purchase? 

The first iteration is shown here, I'm waiting CAD-files for the second iteration.
There are multiple things to change for easier handling in printing, which I want to be changed. For example multiple parts are smaller than support net in cleaning machines, adding some sprue to them would make my work as a printer a lot easier (and if there are multiple models printing at the same time it makes it easier to separate parts from different models). Another example is support material, while it is a bit cheaper than the actual matter cleaning it from small cavities is PITA and can easily add a day in production time (the whiteness in wings are example of some leftover support material).

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Offline GTX

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2014, 08:27:28 pm »
What designs/scales?

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2014, 02:44:15 am »
we suppose scales 1/72 and 1/48 and unique designs resp. all design family (Archangel, Fish, Kingfish. Vickers VA559, Avro 730 ). But I solve now problem with printing sharp edges on wings. When we will know all rules then it will be very fast

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2014, 02:51:10 pm »
Last iteration of Saab 1418. Ready for printing

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2014, 01:02:38 pm »
Saab Projects 14nn

Offline athpilot

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2014, 03:41:46 am »
Good luck for printing! I hope it works as you wish (especially the edges ;). Please let us know about the results.

Greetings
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Offline tiikki

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2014, 12:30:04 am »
At the moment we are cursing as the 60k€ printer is waiting for warranty service from the manufacturer... The warranty service was notified about 3 weeks ago and practically no support...
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Offline athpilot

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2014, 12:20:58 pm »
...ooh what a mess  :o

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2014, 12:08:25 pm »
VA-559 models in scale 1:72 and 1:48. In background is 3D printer working box. I will not totally rebuild model in scale 1:48 but I will only lighen some main parts.

Offline GTX

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2014, 11:28:13 am »
When will these be available to acquire?

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2014, 11:53:13 am »
I suppose 6 months. We need to check stability of material (on my printed Saab project rudder is little twisted, maybe by transport). I will try other printer and material, too in case of problems. Now I wait for printing of improved Saab model. If it will be OK from our point of view we will ask some modellers to build final kit. Now I'm working on 3D models of Lockheed A-1 Archangel, Convair Kingfish, Boeing B818, Avro 730 and Myasistchew M-25-1 and -2. All in scale 1/72. Hot candidate was Northrop N-176, too but I used wrong scanned sources and heavy rebuild will be needed.

Offline athpilot

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2014, 11:31:14 am »
... a Myasistchew M-25-1 and -2 in 1/72... wanna have!  :P

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2014, 11:51:49 am »
yes, they are too crazy to must have it

Offline tiikki

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2014, 11:28:16 pm »
I suppose 6 months. We need to check stability of material (on my printed Saab project rudder is little twisted, maybe by transport). I will try other printer and material, too in case of problems. Now I wait for printing of improved Saab model. If it will be OK from our point of view we will ask some modellers to build final kit. Now I'm working on 3D models of Lockheed A-1 Archangel, Convair Kingfish, Boeing B818, Avro 730 and Myasistchew M-25-1 and -2. All in scale 1/72. Hot candidate was Northrop N-176, too but I used wrong scanned sources and heavy rebuild will be needed.

I'm hoping faster, but in my end we have been cursing 3D System as my few months old printer is still waiting for replacement part (it has been offline for more than month.) Now with the holiday season coming all bets are off about repairing the machine.

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Offline athpilot

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2015, 06:26:06 am »
offtopic but pretty cool and beautiful. The "smallest creation of the human form in history" (oct. 2014) printed in 3d by artist Jonty Hurwitz. Amazing what this technique feature is able to make! Hmm will there be a nanoscale Myasishchev? Just kidding... ;D
http://www.jontyhurwitz.com/nano/

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2015, 07:37:15 am »
last prints. Next rebuild is needed

Offline pedrospe

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2015, 09:23:31 am »
Nice models,they look almost perfect,which 3d printer are you using?






      best regards


      Pedro

Offline tiikki

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2015, 12:56:01 am »
Nice models,they look almost perfect,which 3d printer are you using?






      best regards


      Pedro

The clear one is done with ProJet 3510SD with Crystal material.
The project has been slower than anticipated as the printer was broken for a while.


Tuomo
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Offline GTX

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2015, 11:37:35 am »
Looking good - what scale are those?

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2015, 11:38:59 am »
1 : 72

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2015, 02:44:58 pm »
VA-559 - ready for printing. Scale 1/72
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 02:48:54 pm by PlanesPictures »

Offline Geoff_B

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2015, 03:27:22 pm »
Looking good

Offline GTX

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2015, 07:40:03 am »
Given it is to be 3D printed it should also be possible to do in other scales.  Correct?

Offline tiikki

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2015, 07:43:22 am »
Given it is to be 3D printed it should also be possible to do in other scales.  Correct?

Yes and no. There is a minimum thickness that can be produced reliable and there is a maximum size which can be fitted to the machine.
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Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2015, 07:54:45 am »
Yes and no.  For example models in scale 1/72 and 1/48. Ratio is 1.5 and volume of used material is 1.5*1.5*1.5 = 3.375. Then max lengh/width of printed parts is 20-30 cm and it is possible you will need extra cut enlarged model. Some derating for model in scale 1/48 built from model 1/72 will be usefull but I suppose only 20% work over what will save some material. But it is globaly possible with some extra work

Offline pedrospe

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2015, 08:29:13 am »
Looks promising,the best of luck to you.




               best regards


              Pedro

Offline GTX

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2015, 10:07:13 am »
Thanks.  I would urge you to consider designing for 1/48 as this will increase your market.

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2015, 11:56:11 am »
VA-559 is good candidate? I'm curious, too for result

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2015, 04:21:34 am »
VA-559 in scale 1/72. For more details ask Tuomo

Offline Geoff_B

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2015, 04:49:13 am »
That looks rather nice, so how do we purchase on of these 1/72 VA-559s ?

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2015, 06:33:52 am »
Contact member kiikki from this topic for VA-559 or Saab Project 1418 in scale 1/72. For Vought AI-0505K in scale 1/72 ((http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,24827.0.html) contact me. If you prefer VA-559 or AI-0505K in scale 1/48 contact me, too.

I don't like scale 1/144 but for collections of some unique and large designs I will try to do it, too as these Myasistchew M-56s
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 06:39:00 am by PlanesPictures »

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2015, 01:53:26 am »
For GTX, pls contact me on jozefgatial@gmail.com. I'm not able answer on your message due to some server error

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2015, 02:59:59 am »
Thats the first 3D printed model I've seen where the surface quality looks good. Very nice work!
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Offline Skyblazer

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2015, 04:54:19 am »
I'm amazed at what this technology enables to do and how it's become accessible in only a handful of years.

Of course I'm only an onlooker, don't intend to start printing 3D stuff any time soon, but it's fascinating.

I have a question here, though I can kind of guess the answer to it: with the advent of this technology, and the remarkable results seen in these photos, are we witnessing the beginning of the end for resin models? Because obviously the parts are stronger, better molded, better adjusted and can be printed indefinitely (no need for a mold that wears out after a few hundred examples have been produced).

Offline Riverghost

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2015, 05:41:33 am »
are we witnessing the beginning of the end for resin models? Because obviously the parts are stronger, better moulded, better adjusted and can be printed indefinitely (no need for a mold that wears out after a few hundred examples have been produced).

I don't think your going to see resin ever 'disappear', but more likely get used as has been spoken about earlier in this thread, to create short volume runs from your 3d printed part. The cost per gramme for sls powder, or photosensitive resin, can be quite high!

The hidden side of 3d printing most don't see is the time involved. there could be as much as 18-20 hours worth of printing to get all the components together for a 1/72 scale design (again all dependent on hardware), excluding any time to clean up the printed model, remove from raft, detach supports etc. Unless you have very prestigious clients, you probably would want to use resin casting on your perfected 'master', to reduce your hours per model. the upside is you can just remake your mould from your master when it wears.

However, there are newer printers than are supposed to be 'changing the game' - printing detailed models that would previously have taken 10 hours in a matter of minutes using some very clever technical kung-fu. However a commercial ready to buy product has yet to materialise (Im eagerly awaiting!! haha)

Offline sferrin

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2015, 06:33:36 am »
The cost per gramme for sls powder, or photosensitive resin, can be quite high!

We looked at getting some rather large parts printed for training purposes (before our tooling was in-house and parts were made).  The quoted price for printed parts was more expensive than the composite parts themselves AND the tooling, labor, etc.
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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2015, 07:39:51 am »
Thanks a lot for your answers, Riverghost and sferrin.

I'm sure the costs will drop within 2-3 years, given the speed of technological advances and the success of this technology. Then perhaps the cost of the parts will make it more worthwhile to get your model done in photosensitive resin! I really can envision a future where most model kits will disappear from the stands, and instead people will purchase online a template to get their model printed at home. That can lead to a lot more personalization of the kits, because you will only purchase the rafts that are of interest to you, and also the feedback from users will enable the companies to constantly improve their models without having to reissue them. Plus think of all the packaging saved... neat for the planet too! (okay, the old model shops and opening of the model boxes have a flavor that online purchase will never match, but that's the way of progress I guess...).

Offline Riverghost

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2015, 08:08:29 am »
Perhaps a good way that model shops could survive in this brave new world would be if they also invested into 3d printing. clients come to them with the CAD/Model data, they then print and clean up for a fee.

I truly am interested in how the SLA style systems are going to develop. FDM has to a degree reached its 'peak' in terms of your quality vs speed of print, trying to get any toolhead moving over 500mm/s whilst retaining accuracy is going to start to become cost counterproductive imho,  whereas there is no such hard limit with these SLA systems due to the lack of any moving 'head'. 

What's going to make these SLA printers truly a hobby device is making them as user friendly as current FDM printers. SLA is MESSY, and SMELLS FUNKY. it requires you to use suitable protective gloves etc, and you will find that sticky resin residue everywhere. the company that allows you to just fill it up, and take out a relatively 'clean' part, with integrated odor control / sealed vat area  - that will make someone a pretty penny.


Offline Skyblazer

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2015, 08:35:07 am »
Perhaps a good way that model shops could survive in this brave new world would be if they also invested into 3d printing. clients come to them with the CAD/Model data, they then print and clean up for a fee.

Interesting you should say this, because that is close to the way I initially envisioned the world of music stores when the first CD burners appeared. I imagined people would soon be going to their favorite store, and if they didn't want to buy the entire albums, but only a selection of songs, or if they wanted to make a compilation of their favorite songs from different albums, they'd go to the counter and get their own personalized CD burnt for them on the spot. Of course I had no idea that the manufacturers would make this technology readily available to all... I'm sure that if this scheme had been pursued instead of allowing just anyone to make digital copies of their CDs at home, the music industry would not have been in such a mess, because people would have continued to buy the stuff.

Offline PlanesPictures

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2015, 09:56:30 am »
Only a few minutes ago I sent it to print. I look forward

Offline Hobbes

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #64 on: August 03, 2015, 11:06:26 am »
Perhaps a good way that model shops could survive in this brave new world would be if they also invested into 3d printing. clients come to them with the CAD/Model data, they then print and clean up for a fee.


It'd be difficult for them to compete with large-volume 3D print houses like Shapeways.

Offline Sundog

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #65 on: August 30, 2015, 04:28:05 pm »
It'd be difficult for them to compete with large-volume 3D print houses like Shapeways.


My guess is they would link with businesses like Shapeways, have their own store front there, since anyone is able to, and you would basically pay to have their model printed and shipped to you.


To me, what makes this interesting, is you could have option pricing. One for the basic airframe, one for a weapons kit, flight crew, support vehicles. They could even make it so you could easily buy different variant options.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #66 on: August 30, 2015, 05:54:36 pm »
Yes- it would be no more costly (aside from the initial modelling) to have lots of versions, like P.1121 prototype, production, 2 seat naval strike, etc.
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Offline riggerrob

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2018, 06:16:19 pm »
Yes, merely e-mailing print files to a local fab shop is the future. 3D printers are still too fussy for casual home users.

Sellers of CNC plywood boat kits are currently reluctant to e-mail out cutting files until copyright law catches up to tooling. They are afraid that a customer will buy cut files (and a licence to build one) then re-sell them to hundreds of black market customers.

I can foresee a future where you bring your favourite garden gnome - to your local UPS Store - for scanning. Tomorrow your distant aunt receives an exact copy printed in any one of dozens of stock colours. For an additional fee, UPS will “fix” cracks and faded paint on the printed copy.

Offline Foo Fighter

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2018, 07:56:16 am »
At which point do the home use 3d printers become a credible threat for the likes of Airfix etc.  What can they do to hang on to their business?  At some stage there will have to be a sea change in rights and it can only cut the freedoms of modelers everywhere.  With the use of 3d scanners this will be even more convoluted rather like the digital music rights etc.

Offline Richard N

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2018, 10:04:45 pm »
3D printed parts are useful for prototypes or small part runs, but have nowhere near the surface finish or quick production cycles of injection molded parts. 

The surface finish of injection parts can be smooth as glass with fine panel lines and rivet detail while printed parts are covered with grow or printing lines and have to be hand or chemical finished to get a surface that is smooth but nowhere near the quality of an injection part.

Injection part cycle times are measured in seconds to minutes where the mold closes and is injected with molten plastic, cooled with water run through passages in the mold, and finally ejected from the mold.  Printed parts take from hours to days.  3D printing is okay for a single part or prototype, but impractical for most production.

Printed parts for production are practical for small runs of large parts where the run is too small to be worth investing in molds or tooling that would be feasible  for a larger number of parts.

Airfix has nothing to fear from 3D printers.

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #70 on: October 18, 2018, 09:05:19 am »
… Airfix has nothing to fear from 3D printers.

Not yet.

But, within a short time robot printing/cutting of parts will equal the finish and production time of injection molding (with the ability to 'pre-paint' those parts already demonstrated on printed parts). In SF circles they refer to such machines as, Replicators.

The day is quickly approaching when no one will have the ability or inclination to use their hands or brains. And on that day the lights go out, so will we. No craftsmen, no survival. There won't even be a spoke-shave to save us.

Brave new world, indeed.

David
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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #71 on: October 18, 2018, 01:41:14 pm »

The day is quickly approaching when no one will have the ability or inclination to use their hands or brains.

Not necessarily. When 3D printers/fabber/replicators can truly replace pretty much any other means of making something, the urge to create will still exist; it will just be expressed differently... via creating stuff on the computer. I've seen a lot of artists who "sculpt" some pretty amazing digital figures, and with modern and projected input devices, the techniques are actually not dissimilar from sculpting in clay. With augmented reality glasses and input gloves that feature sensory feedback, it will be a *lot* like physical sculpting... just with the ability to hit "undo."

And, sure, if the computers go down, there will be trouble. But if there's a massive EMP strike or a Carrington Event, we'll have bigger things to worry about than a lack of new spaceship model kits.

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Offline sferrin

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #72 on: October 18, 2018, 05:30:20 pm »

The day is quickly approaching when no one will have the ability or inclination to use their hands or brains.

Not necessarily. When 3D printers/fabber/replicators can truly replace pretty much any other means of making something, the urge to create will still exist; it will just be expressed differently... via creating stuff on the computer. I've seen a lot of artists who "sculpt" some pretty amazing digital figures, and with modern and projected input devices, the techniques are actually not dissimilar from sculpting in clay. With augmented reality glasses and input gloves that feature sensory feedback, it will be a *lot* like physical sculpting... just with the ability to hit "undo."

And, sure, if the computers go down, there will be trouble. But if there's a massive EMP strike or a Carrington Event, we'll have bigger things to worry about than a lack of new spaceship model kits.

Yep.  The stuff they can do in ZBrush is pretty mind-blowing.
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Offline royabulgaf

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #73 on: October 18, 2018, 07:29:12 pm »
Orionblamen- Regarding the artist.  There was an SF short story written 50+ years ago about an artist that worked with a voice-controlled 3d printer.  He created sculptures that were anti-gravity, but only when inebriated. 

Offline Hobbes

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2018, 08:43:36 am »
Quote
The day is quickly approaching when no one will have the ability or inclination to use their hands or brains

That's rubbish. Currently, the world is already full of products you can purchase, yet lots of people still enjoy making their own. Take my hobby for instance: I could buy premade diecast scale models, but instead I build models from kits or I scratchbuild because what I enjoy is the process of creating something.   

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #75 on: November 06, 2018, 01:53:35 pm »
The hobby builders may just benefit, look at the types of model that are being sold, rarely are they large run models obscure types or experimental types but if the home user can create the parts themselves, we may see an upsurge in the unusual.  Airfix et al may not like it but WE might just get a win.  Paper models may even get a resurgence.

Offline Hobbes

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2018, 11:13:31 pm »
Quote
The hobby builders may just benefit

We already do. Several of my scratchbuild projects over the past few years have a few printed parts in them. I'm selling those parts too.

Offline robertino

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #77 on: November 16, 2018, 02:36:39 am »
which 3d program you use,
and on which printer you print

thx

Offline Hobbes

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #78 on: November 16, 2018, 03:08:47 am »
I draw in SolidWorks, and use Shapeways.com for printing.
 

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #79 on: November 16, 2018, 05:03:31 am »
I draw in SolidWorks, and use Shapeways.com for printing.

thank you

you do not have your own printer

Offline Hobbes

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #80 on: November 16, 2018, 05:30:42 am »
No. Last time I checked all the affordable printers are filament extrusion printers, and their results require a lot of postprocessing to get a nice finish. Plus they can be big time sinks as you figure out how to get the best results from them. For the cost of a home printer, I can do 10 years' worth of print orders on Shapeways.

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #81 on: November 16, 2018, 06:03:22 am »
No. Last time I checked all the affordable printers are filament extrusion printers, and their results require a lot of postprocessing to get a nice finish. Plus they can be big time sinks as you figure out how to get the best results from them. For the cost of a home printer, I can do 10 years' worth of print orders on Shapeways.

thank you for your reply

Interestingly,
it is not worth buying a 3d printer for personal use

Offline Hobbes

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #82 on: November 16, 2018, 06:24:21 am »
Depends on what you want. If you want to experiment, buy a printer. If filament printing resolution is high enough for you, buying also makes sense.
If you print 1-2 objects per year (like me) it becomes an expensive hobby and you might be better off using a commercial printing service.

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #83 on: November 16, 2018, 06:49:14 am »
thank you

I plan to work on models 1/72, various ex-Yugoslav models

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #84 on: November 16, 2018, 02:38:34 pm »
Quote
The hobby builders may just benefit

We already do. Several of my scratchbuild projects over the past few years have a few printed parts in them. I'm selling those parts too.

How can you suggest your projects are scratchbuilt when a robot did some of the work for you?

David
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Offline allysonca

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #85 on: November 16, 2018, 03:41:59 pm »
I just wanted to chime in about the snarky remark about scratch building and 3D printing. I can tell you for a fact that there is a LOT of handwork for most 3D prints.... We get some 3D models from Sikorsky and they require a ton of work to get smooth and paint ready. Our skills are tested with each model from start to finish. Try it some time!  A robot can only print what we tell it too and there are a lot of errors to correct most of the time.

It really does not matter how we come about the parts to make any model, whether from hand-carved wood masters, resin molds, 3D printing, or whatever, there are skills and crafting required, so YES - 3D is scratch building at its base level. As an artist and a modeler, it does not make any difference how one get's there.... just as long as we do - and the finished product looks. 

Give me a 3D printed bunch of parts and frankly, sometimes it may be easier to carve it in wood than fill, prime, sand - fill, prime, sand -fill, prime, sand, fill, prime, sand....... but at least the bones are there.......
You get the picture!

Offline Hobbes

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2018, 01:06:00 am »
Quote
The hobby builders may just benefit

We already do. Several of my scratchbuild projects over the past few years have a few printed parts in them. I'm selling those parts too.

How can you suggest your projects are scratchbuilt when a robot did some of the work for you?

David

The robot was following my instructions.

When a project contains a significant amount of scratchbuilding, I consider the project to be a scratchbuild. Some people use a definition where only projects that are made 100% from raw materials are scratchbuilds, I disagree with that definition.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 01:30:05 am by Hobbes »

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2018, 04:21:14 am »
Quote
The hobby builders may just benefit

We already do. Several of my scratchbuild projects over the past few years have a few printed parts in them. I'm selling those parts too.

How can you suggest your projects are scratchbuilt when a robot did some of the work for you?

David

The robot was following my instructions.

When a project contains a significant amount of scratchbuilding, I consider the project to be a scratchbuild. Some people use a definition where only projects that are made 100% from raw materials are scratchbuilds, I disagree with that definition.

So...

Master to Slave: "Slave, build me a three-masted sailing ship model!"
Slave completes and presents model to Master.
The Master proudly states (in the voice of Obama) "I built that!" Then he marches 'his' creation to the local IPMS regional contest or client and proudly presents the work as 'his' scratch-built model.

I see.

When you surrender your motor-skills to robots, you lose those skills, as well as the people you would have passed those skills on to. Soon all 'model makers' will be people who only know how to select a menu of geometric shapes off a monitor, move a mouse around and then mash the 'enter' key when all the images fall into a pattern of their liking.

I well appreciate that the robots do our work faster, better, and cheaper than us. I just rebel against the willing abandonment of the Craft.

I'm all about attribution. Next time you present a robot produced item, don't claim it as your work, simply say, "hey, look what my robot made for me".

David
We're the extra fuel they may need, Stanton...

Offline Hobbes

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2018, 07:13:09 am »

I'm all about attribution. Next time you present a robot produced item, don't claim it as your work, simply say, "hey, look what my robot made for me".

David

Don't assume things about how I present my builds. You can check for yourself over on whatifmodelers.com.

Offline martinbayer

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #89 on: November 17, 2018, 11:20:50 am »
The Master proudly states (in the voice of Obama) "I built that!"

That sounds a whole lot more like one of Trump's bombastic boasts though...
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 09:53:57 pm by martinbayer »
Would be marching to the beat of his own drum, if he didn't detest marching to any drumbeat at all so much.

Offline Foo Fighter

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Re: 3D printing
« Reply #90 on: November 18, 2018, 04:21:53 am »
That got to be a little personal, we are individuals and have our own 'code' or definitions for what we do.  Those using printed parts have every right to do so without sarcastic comments and put downs.  It takes all kinds after all and perhaps it is better to count to ten and rethink before commenting.

I call my post's my own but write with a keyboard and spellchecker, does that mean the words belong to the keyboard?