Chinese 8in Howitzer

xiaofan

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According to Chinese sources that Chinese 8in howitzer is a joint project betwen Norinco, British SRC company and Spanish ERT/EDB company. British come up with the design drawings, Spanish SITECSA company had produce two prototypes and Norinco produce two more prototype.

Is any one have any more information and photo about these Spanish Guns?

PS: at least one Chinese Prototype still exist.

Thank you
 

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These photos are less than a week old (not by me).
 

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SRC was Canadian Gerald Bull's, of GC45, G5 and Iraqi Super Gun (in)fame, company not British. He worked for the Chinese during the 1980s (based in Belgium) supplying them with the 155mm ERFB technology and a design for a medium gun. Shouldn’t be a surprise that he also provided a design for his heavy gun. However this gun was a 210mm gun that he also supplied to Iraq. A 210mm gun looks very much like a 203mm (8 inch) gun from the outside and without close inspection.

PS The shells in the second series of photos are SRC Extended Range Full Bore (ERFB) type shells.
 
The muzzle brake looks definitely more substantial than the standard on the M110a2 and the tube longer and slimmer:

m110.jpg
 
M110A2 has a L39.5 barrel (8m long) and Bull was a big fan of L45 barrels. So if it was a 210mm L45 barrel it would be 9.5m long. Which looks about right on the SP version compared to the M110A2 (9.5m to 8m barrel length).
 
Chinese 8in howitzer's barrel is L45 barrel.

By the way Chinese 8in SPG using an original 175mm M-107 SPG chassis.
 
ALCON,


This reference may be helpful to this conversation, here is an image of the Al-Fao 210mm SPH and a placard with info on both SPHs being designed by Gerald Bull for Iraq from a public display in Baghdad in 1989..
 

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Reply to post # 6.


The muzzle brakes of the Iranian piece and the Chinese gun seem to be identical. Both guns are derivatives of a Gerald Bull/SRC design. The U.S. 8 inch gun is a nominal 203mm calibre while the Iranian gun is stated to be 210mm; pretty close. I wonder if the Chinese gun isn't actually 210mm (8.26 inch)?
 
Herman said:
Reply to post # 6.


The muzzle brakes of the Iranian piece and the Chinese gun seem to be identical. Both guns are derivatives of a Gerald Bull/SRC design. The U.S. 8 inch gun is a nominal 203mm calibre while the Iranian gun is stated to be 210mm; pretty close. I wonder if the Chinese gun isn't actually 210mm (8.26 inch)?

It is 8in, according to some Chinese source when Chinese tasting the gun China do not have 8in ammunition so we have to use American 8in amnumition.
 
xiaofan said:
It is 8in, according to some Chinese source when Chinese tasting the gun China do not have 8in ammunition so we have to use American 8in amnumition.

The images of the gun above show it with two shells in front. These 203mm (or 210mm) shells are not American standard ammunition. They are Gerald Bull ERFB ammunition in the heavy artillery calibre. These shells are very different to American standard. Testing the gun with some American 203mm shells the Chinese had sitting around form captured stock in the VietNam or Korean War or that they had brought on the black market would only proof the ordnance and not the very different ERFB shells. It would also be extremely unsafe using such dodgy sourced ammo.
 
Abraham Gubler said:
xiaofan said:
It is 8in, according to some Chinese source when Chinese tasting the gun China do not have 8in ammunition so we have to use American 8in amnumition.

The images of the gun above show it with two shells in front. These 203mm (or 210mm) shells are not American standard ammunition. They are Gerald Bull ERFB ammunition in the heavy artillery calibre. These shells are very different to American standard. Testing the gun with some American 203mm shells the Chinese had sitting around form captured stock in the VietNam or Korean War or that they had brought on the black market would only proof the ordnance and not the very different ERFB shells. It would also be extremely unsafe using such dodgy sourced ammo.

Yes American ammunition is just to proof the ordnance. Chinese only has two prototype gun and Chinse Army never use 8in artillery befor,so Chinese manage to soure some American ammuniton (most of them come form Vietnam War stock,along with 175mm M-107 SPG chassis), at some time Chinese try to develop 8in ERFB shells (the ERFB shells in the photo were not there a few years ago). The 8in gun project end in 1991, during the tset the prototype gun fire about 235 round. After the test Chinese army decide not to adopt the 8in artillery, Chinese army prefer the 155mm artillery.

The project end in 1991, during the tseting the prototype gun fire about 235 round.
 
This Chinese website provides plenty of infos on the FGT-203 :

http://blog.163.com/lhp_sg/blog/static/6906538420082393841144

Below are some highlights roughly translated with Google :

Gun Data :

Bore Diameter : 203.2 mm
Barrel length : 45.5 cal. (9,245.6 mm)
Service pressure (full charge) : 329 MPa
Combat weight : 16.396 kg
Length in firing position : 17.70 meters
Length in towing position : 14.38 meters
Elevation : -5 to + 55 degrees
Traverse : ± 25 degrees
Maximum rate of fire : 3 rounds / min
Sustained rate of fire : 1.5 rounds / min
Maximum road speed : 70 km/h
Maximum cross-country speed : 35 km/h

Projectiles (ERFB-BT / ERFB-BB) :
- mass : 95.6 kg / 100.1 kg
- muzzle velocity : 933 m/s / 933 m/s
- maximum range : ~ 40 km / ~ 50 km

Full Charge mass : 42 kg

Barrel is made of nickel chromium molybdenum steel ESR, using hydraulic autofrettage technology, 64 right-handed rifling. Barrel is chrome-plated to improve service life to approximately 1,000 rounds (ESR ?)

Muzzle brake efficiency said to be 65.9%.

Ammunition Data :

Type : ERFB-BT / Cargo / ERFB-BB
Projectile length (mm) : 1219.0 / 1202.0 / 1239.1
Projectile mass (kg) : 95.9 / 95.9 / 100.1
Maximum range / angle (m @ degrees) : 39159 @ 51° / 36000 @ 50° / 49582 @ 52°
Maximum trajectory altitude (m) : 15135.0 / 13828.4 / 18553.0
Terminal Velocity (m/s) : 446 / 420 / 487
Angle of Fall (degrees) : 63.88 / - / 62.34
Typical PE (range) : 0.44% ~ 0.64% / 0.35% ~ 0.40% / 0.45% ~ 0.65%
Typical PE (deflection) : 0.8 mils

Edit : another useful website (in Japanese) :
http://seesaawiki.jp/w/namacha2/d/W-90%20203mm%BC%AB%C1%F6%DC%D8%C3%C6%CB%A4
 
More pics (found here) :
 

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I seem to recall that Bull and his Spanish subsidiary also proposed a 6X6 SPG variant of that weapon prior to the Chinese interest and the Iraqi 210MM development.
I do not believe that a prototype of the self propelled version was constructed?
 
V8Interceptor said:
I seem to recall that Bull and his Spanish subsidiary also proposed a 6X6 SPG variant of that weapon prior to the Chinese interest and the Iraqi 210MM development.
I do not believe that a prototype of the self propelled version was constructed?

IIRC, it was called VSP-203 and, based on the artist renditions I've seen, it very much featured the same configuration as the Iraqi Al-Fao 210mm SPH.

I don't believe a prototype was constructed.

Below are some more pics of the FGT-203 (found on the Internet) :
 

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Matt R. said:
V8Interceptor said:
I seem to recall that Bull and his Spanish subsidiary also proposed a 6X6 SPG variant of that weapon prior to the Chinese interest and the Iraqi 210MM development.
I do not believe that a prototype of the self propelled version was constructed?

IIRC, it was called VSP-203 and, based on the artist renditions I've seen, it very much featured the same configuration as the Iraqi Al-Fao 210mm SPH.
I don't believe a prototype was constructed.

Below are some details on the VSP-203 from Armada International, April 1990 (via The Free Library) :

Belgium

Going, as usual, against the grain of conventional wisdom, Gerry Bull's Space Research Corporation (SRC) in Belgium has launched the development of a new self-propelled howitzer in the 203 mm (8-inch) calibre that everybody else had thought was about to head for the museum. Not only that, but the VSP is a wheeled 6X6 design which, according to its description, is virtually identical to the 155 mm South African G6 (see below). It may, in fact, be using Armscor's unique G6 chassis, though no photographs have been released which could confirm this.

In addition to the weapon, SRC is developing a completely new family of ERFB ammunition to go with it. Fired from the VSP's 45.5-calibre 203 mm tube, standard ERFB projectiles will have a range of more than 38 km (vs. 21.3 km for HE rounds fired by the American M110A2), while ERFB base bleed rounds will achieve 50 km.

The VSP has a four-man crew, three of whom are in the turret with the ordnance and an automatic loader for the 30 rounds of ammunition carried on board.

The vehicle is powered by a V-12 diesel via an automatic transmission, both located to the rear of the driver's position over the front axle, as in the G6.

The turret is located in the conventional position at the back of the vehicle, with a traverse of [+ or -] 40[degrees], again identical to the G6. Maximum barrel elevation is 55[degrees]. Both the turret and the high ground-clearance hull have large rear access doors for ammunition loading.

The crew ar provided with a collective NBC system, and the VSP is clearly capable of firing chemical and nuclear projectiles, especially if these are developed in ERFB form.

According to strong, but so far unconfirmed, rumours Gerry Bull was working closely with an Arab state which has a proven chemical warfare capability and is developing nuclear weapons at the time of his assassination by a professional killer on 22 February this year.
 
Stands to reason that the Al Fao was probably 203mm rather than the claimed 210mm. Unlikely that SRC would develop both 203mm and 210mm guns concurrently. More likely that Iraq would just rename the calibre to sound 'cool'.
 
Abraham Gubler said:
Stands to reason that the Al Fao was probably 203mm rather than the claimed 210mm. Unlikely that SRC would develop both 203mm and 210mm guns concurrently. More likely that Iraq would just rename the calibre to sound 'cool'.

Below is a Russian document providing with some infos on the Al Fao (from this website).

Specs are very much the same as those given in Jane's, suggesting some significant differences between Al Fao and FGT/VSP (bore diameter, barrel length, shell weight, muzzle velocity).
 

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here is another Chinese website that contains very interesting information on the design history of the FGT-203.

While Google translate (or equivalent) may not be entirely satisfactory, it's legible enough to decipher some of the most salient features of this gun's design.

http://bbs.tiexue.net/post2_4074679_1.html
 
Matt R. said:
Here is another Chinese website that contains very interesting information on the design history of the FGT-203.

While Google translate (or equivalent) may not be entirely satisfactory, it's legible enough to decipher some of the most salient features of this gun's design.

double post; please delete.
 
Abraham Gubler said:
Stands to reason that the Al Fao was probably 203mm rather than the claimed 210mm. Unlikely that SRC would develop both 203mm and 210mm guns concurrently. More likely that Iraq would just rename the calibre to sound 'cool'.

210mm could well be the caliber counting the rifling grooves and quoted by the Iraqis for the win factor. Wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened or caused confusion.
 
More infos on the Chinese 203mm ERFB (BT / BB) projectile :

1) The projectile generates 27,041 fragments, weighing 2.12 grams on average, allegedly 6 times as much as the US M106 projectile.

2) The projectile's kill radius is 53.9 meters, allegedly 1.89 times as much as the US M106 projectile.

3) The burning time of the base-bleed unit is about 39 seconds, reducing drag by about 30%.

4) Combustible cases are used for propellant charges, the top one (charge 4) being 1,033mm (length) by 255mm (diameter), i.e a volume of 52.75 litres. This suggests a chamber volume of about 55+ litres.

5) Propellant similar to the US M14 single base, with main parameters as follows :
- Flame Temperature: 2743 K
- Impetus: 988 Joules/Gram
- Molecular Weight (Gas): 23.085
- Covolume: 1.069 grams/cm3
- Frozen Gamma: 1.2539

6) Ballistic data for ERFB-BT projectile :
- muzzle velocity : 550 m/s (charge 1) to 933 m/s (charge 4)
- range @ 20° QE : 12,090 m (charge 1) to 25,660 m (charge 4)
- range @ 50° QE : 17,000 m (charge 1) to 38,100 m (charge 4)

Source
 

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Sea Skimmer said:
Abraham Gubler said:
Stands to reason that the Al Fao was probably 203mm rather than the claimed 210mm. Unlikely that SRC would develop both 203mm and 210mm guns concurrently. More likely that Iraq would just rename the calibre to sound 'cool'.

210mm could well be the caliber counting the rifling grooves and quoted by the Iraqis for the win factor. Wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened or caused confusion.

Based on the mass of their respective ERFB projectiles, 203mm sounds about right for FGT-203 and 210mm sounds about right for Al-Fao :

1) 155mm ERFB : 45.5 kg ; mass / d^3 ~ 12.2

2) 203mm ERFB : 100.1 kg ; mass / d^3 ~ 12.0

3) 210mm ERFB : 109.4 kg ; mass / d^3 ~ 11.8
 
Alleged
 

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a lot bigger truck and longer barrel and bigger gun generally.

Okay, why? You're saying that this drawing does not represent the short-cab version of the Taian TA580 8x8?

Attached is a crude comparison between the drawing and the 155 mm/L52 AH2 tube which shows mainly similarities. There are differences - most noticeably, in the recuperators and muzzle brakes - but the general proportions appear to be the same. What am I missing?
the depiction you present is of a smaller gun. theyre clearly not the same gun. There is a significant size difference between the size of these trucks,
 

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