Register here

Author Topic: South African Radar & EW Projects  (Read 15502 times)

Offline Graugrun

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 329
South African Radar & EW Projects
« on: January 11, 2014, 04:08:40 am »
Very little has been released regards our own airborne radar project/s (for fighters). Project Meccano is the only mentioned one to my knowledge, the below being the most information to date that I have seen on it. It would seem to relate to project Carver (the SAAF fighter aircraft project).

Below extract from a paper presented on CSIR by Jakkie Cilliers in 1996:

"A contract for the development of the Meccano radar was place with Aerotek and the sub system technologies have been developed. Development of the full three channel monopulse tracking radar is currently underway, and a project to develop a one dimensional active phased-array antenna for integration with the Mecanno radar has begun in (mid) 1995."


Also attached below is a picture from an Avitronics brochure (now SAAB Avitronics - perhaps better known for their airborne and other EW equipment).

It shows what looks like a Elta ELM-2032 radar antenna/array (with one small difference). Why would they produce this though? It would be way too expensive to do this just for spare parts purposes for the Cheetah C fighter (if it is indeed the 2032 antenna/array). Is this perhaps an indication that there was some sort of co-development and or manufacturing on the 2032 with the Israelis - did we perhaps design the 2032 antenna?

Or is this part of project Mecanno - someone out there must be able to answer some of the above and more....
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 02:31:15 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »

Offline JFC Fuller

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 3227
Re: South African Radar & EW Projects
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2014, 04:55:30 am »
I have often seen in a number of places that a Longbowesque radar was proposed for the Rooivalk, has anybody else seen anything to confirm or refute this?

Offline Graugrun

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 329
Re: South African Radar & EW Projects
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2014, 06:07:06 am »
I have often seen in a number of places that a Longbowesque radar was proposed for the Rooivalk, has anybody else seen anything to confirm or refute this?

I have unfortunately long since lost touch with the people who could give me the correct input on this. I had heard particularly in relation to the UK bid that we might had to get something like that going, many companies (like AMS, Avitronics, CSIR etc) had often mentioned or talked of their MMW radar expertise, also it was always expected that the Mokopa would be have a MMW seeker as an option. I suspect that the capability might have been there - but like most things, not the funding...

The below picture comes from an Atlas Aircraft brochure on their rotor technology (design expertise, testing, manufacturing, qualification) - My interest being rather piqued when I first saw this pic many years ago - They told me that it is simply an x-ray of sorts to check on the rotor head below during various testing.

One of the Rooivalk brochures at the time of the UK proposal states the following under 'Growth Options': Bowman Radios, MAST MOUNTED PAYLOADS, Anti-ship Capability.

Again there is someone out there who can tell us more I am sure.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 07:07:37 am by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1185
Re: South African Radar & EW Projects
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2014, 07:37:48 am »
Once again, thanks very much for such interesting posts, Graugrun.
 
I too have searched long and hard for details on "Meccano", after seeing it mentioned briefly, probably ultimately for use in the Carver Fighter Project, in Those who had the Power.
 
I've not found anything else, unfortunately.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10211
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: South African Radar & EW Projects
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2014, 09:34:53 am »
Quote
The Meccano breadboard radar technology demonstrator was contracted in 1990. The aim was to establish a variety of modern radar technologies in support of the new generation of radar applications. These included modern flexible waveform generation, digital pulse compression, pulsed Doppler processing and advanced Electronic Counter-Countermeasures (ECCMs). This radar technology was transferred to a South African radar company, Reutech Radar Systems, who utilised it in the development of the Optronic Radar Tracker (ORT), now fully integrated on the SA Navy’s Valour class Frigates.

http://researchspace.csir.co.za/dspace/bitstream/10204/2575/1/Goosen_2008.pdf
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline kaiserbill

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1185
Re: South African Radar & EW Projects
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2014, 12:46:52 pm »
Thanks for that Paul.
That link also mentions the Fynkyk radar technology project, which I think Those who had the Power mentions was related to Meccano, unless I've misunderstood.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10211
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: South African Radar & EW Projects
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2014, 12:58:30 pm »
 Fynkyk was earlier and less advanced.

Quote
During 1983 a contract was placed on the
CSIR to design and develop a full
monopulse tracking radar technology
demonstrator. It was to operate at an
extremely high radar frequency [Ka-band] and utilize
the latest digital signal processor and
microprocessor technology. The Fynkyk
radar, as it became known, was completed
in 1988 and integrated in a mobile
laboratory for field trials and
demonstrations. During the past decade,
Fynkyk was extensively deployed in
support of engineering measurements and
South African Air Force and Army force
preparation exercises.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline kaiserbill

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1185
Re: South African Radar & EW Projects
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2014, 01:08:41 pm »
Ah, okay.
So an earlier precursor then.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10211
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: South African Radar & EW Projects
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2014, 05:03:29 pm »
From what I've seen, Fynkyk nor Meccano were CSIR technology demonstrators / proof of concept designs - of how to design from scratch a Ka-band monopulse tracking radar and an X-band pulse doppler radar respectively - The technology was given to ESD (Reutech) to turn into a useful radar system. Meccano would have been unlikely to lead to an airborne radar better than what Israel (Elta) could offer anytime soon. Apparently that  technology went to Reutech as well.

Atlas was planning to use ELM-2032 series radar from Israel's Elta on the Carver.

Quote
Building on radar competence existing in the CSIR since its establishment in 1945, a competence in tracking radar technology was started in 1978 that still continues today.The first development was a technology demonstrator of a 35GHz, range-only radar called Nimbus. It was followed in 1983 by the development of the Fynkyk 35GHz monopulse tracking radar technology demonstrator. It was completed in 1988, integrated into a mobile laboratory and became well known in the SANDF user-community for radar phenomenology measurements and technology demonstrations during field trials. The Fynkyk radar technology was subsequently transferred to ESD, now known as Reutech Radar Systems (RRS), where it was industrialised.

The Fynkyk technology was vastly extended when a contract for the development of the Meccano technoogy demonstrator was placed with the CSIR in 1989. A single-channel breadboard version of this new pulsed Doppler tracking radar was completed in 1995. Meccano technology was further developed and transferred to RRS between 1996 and 2005 where it was used as the basis of their Optronic Radar Tracker (ORT), designed to meet the South African Navy's stringent requirements for their new Patrol Corvettes.

This eventually led to a R350 million contract with RRS for the supply of all the tracking systems on the Patrol Corvettes. RRS is currently marketing the ORT as one of its flagship products locally and abroad. At present, some of the advanced radar research projects at the CSIR are aimed at the continuous improvement of this South African innovation, exploiting its built-in upgrade potential to provide even higher levels of performance in a practical user environment and adding to its export potential.

http://www.csir.co.za/publications/pdfs/sciencescope/Science_scope_oct2005.pdf
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline Graugrun

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 329
Re: South African Radar & EW Projects
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2014, 06:37:28 am »
Many thanks for that PaulMM - especially the pics! -  I had skimmed through that article before, however I obviously missed that portion, BTW I specifically did not mention Fynkyk , as it was more of a technology project/mobile testing/R&D laboratory type of setup - it has since seemingly been superceded by programs like MecORT, Spider and AwareNet (I will cover it in more detail later).

What I did no know is that Fynkyk and the Meccano programs were handed over to RRS and further developed into their RTS 6400 Tracking System for our Frigates.

My only question on Atlas wanting to use the ELM-2032 series radar on the carver would be: then why set up a development program? - rather just buy the product. Unless of course the Meccano project was to improve or build on the ELM-2032 in some way/s - and perhaps to include the manufacture of some of the components where feasible. That would make more sense to me.

Hopefully someone can enlighten us further.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 06:39:00 am by Graugrun »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10211
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: South African Radar & EW Projects
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2014, 09:10:58 am »
Many thanks for that PaulMM - especially the pics! -  I had skimmed through that article before, however I obviously missed that portion, BTW I specifically did not mention Fynkyk , as it was more of a technology project/mobile testing/R&D laboratory type of setup - it has since seemingly been superceded by programs like MecORT, Spider and AwareNet (I will cover it in more detail later).

What I did no know is that Fynkyk and the Meccano programs were handed over to RRS and further developed into their RTS 6400 Tracking System for our Frigates.

My only question on Atlas wanting to use the ELM-2032 series radar on the carver would be: then why set up a development program? - rather just buy the product. Unless of course the Meccano project was to improve or build on the ELM-2032 in some way/s - and perhaps to include the manufacture of some of the components where feasible. That would make more sense to me.

Hopefully someone can enlighten us further.

Perhaps:

Fynkyk = ETS 2400 (Ka-band)
http://www.rrs.co.za/products/products-heritage#ets-2400

Meccano = RTS 6400? (X-Band)
http://www.rrs.co.za/products/products-heritage#rts-6400

"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline Graugrun

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 329
Re: South African Radar & EW Projects
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2014, 10:36:17 am »
A little more on Fynkyk - there was also Fynmeet and some other auxiliary projects. I can post a bit on those, however it might start to get a little too technical...

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10211
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: South African Radar & EW Projects
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2014, 11:13:10 am »
We could split the radar stuff to the Avionics forum.
 
Regarding the "Meccano" project - was it definitely related to Carver? If it was, then it could have been to allow measurement and evaluation of third party radars. Alternatively it could have been aimed at developing an indigenous radar for Carver. However, it would have been unlikely to have borne fruit early enough to be useful without a background in license manufacture of a contemporary airborne radar.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline Graugrun

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 329
Re: South African Radar & EW Projects
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2014, 08:56:36 am »
We could split the radar stuff to the Avionics forum.

I think it would be the right thing to do - however since there has not been much done, can I suggest that we be allowed to add in all South African radar and EW development (ground/air/naval). That way we can make it into a decent thread of substance (as I assume being an "Avionics forum" it relates to airborne activities only....!?)
 

BTW regards your comments above on Mecanno - Yes that also is a good possibility and also makes sense - as always hopefully someone will fill in all the (large) blanks in terms of "Meccano"
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 09:01:40 am by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 329
Re: South African Radar & EW Projects
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2014, 12:43:33 pm »
Thanks PaulMM!

Herewith brochure on the ETS 2400 as per the above, I have the same for the RTS 6400, however since the RTS 6400 has now been produced, it is no longer applicable to this forum.