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Author Topic: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.  (Read 74492 times)

Offline kaiserbill

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Interesting.
 
I was not aware of any local Skerpioen (Gabriel) developments.
 

Offline compton_effect

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Wow. Thanks for the Gabriel info. I remember reading about the warhead years ago, on one of the missile websites. But could not find any info about it.

Offline panzerskool

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I'm reading SADF in the border war 1966- 1989 and read that 3 ships were sunk / damaged by SA frogmen planting mines in the port of Namibe in 1986. So did a bit of searching around for more info on it as its important to note that these were Cuban and Soviet ships not Angolan and read the following LA times article which mentions a ground attack by Skerpioen missiles.


other articles state it was only frogmen who blew the tanks including Peter Stiff’s [/size]The Silent War – South African Recce Operations 1969 – 1994[/color][/i]

[/size]interesting never the less
[/color]


[/size]Cuban, Soviet Ships Hit in Angola Port
June 07, 1986
|From Reuters

MOSCOW — The official news agency Tass said Friday that Soviet and Cuban cargo ships were hit in the Angolan port of Namibe at the time of a reported South African raid there Thursday.
Tass said that two Soviet ships, the Kapitan Vislobokov and the Kapitan Chirkov, were seriously damaged as they unloaded in the southern Angolan port. No one was injured, it said.

In Havana, the official daily newspaper Granma reported that the 6,000-ton Cuban cargo ship Habana was sunk. It said the Habana, on contract to the Angolan government for coastal trade, was unloading food. No casualties on the ship were reported.
The official Angolan news agency ANGOP said that in the Thursday morning raid on Namibe, a South African warship armed with Scorpion missiles destroyed two fuel tanks while frogmen planted mines on three ships in the harbor, sinking one of them.
South Africa refused to comment on the raid report.
Helped by Cuban Troops
Cuba has an estimated 30,000 troops in Angola in support of its Marxist government. The Soviet Union has supplied Angola with military hardware.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 07:53:16 pm by panzerskool »

Offline panzerskool

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did we have a license to manufacture the Gabriel or did we just get supplies from Israel? can't see a manufacturing of a sophisticated system for such a limited need (6 per boat , 9 boats plus dummy shots , test platforms and practice shots ) what maybe 100 missiles?

Offline Graugrun

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I'm reading SADF in the border war 1966- 1989 and read that 3 ships were sunk / damaged by SA frogmen planting mines in the port of Namibe in 1986. So did a bit of searching around for more info on it as its important to note that these were Cuban and Soviet ships not Angolan and read the following LA times article which mentions a ground attack by Skerpioen missiles.


Cuban, Soviet Ships Hit in Angola Port
June 07, 1986
|From Reuters

MOSCOW — The official news agency Tass said Friday that Soviet and Cuban cargo ships were hit in the Angolan port of Namibe at the time of a reported South African raid there Thursday.
Tass said that two Soviet ships, the Kapitan Vislobokov and the Kapitan Chirkov, were seriously damaged as they unloaded in the southern Angolan port. No one was injured, it said.

In Havana, the official daily newspaper Granma reported that the 6,000-ton Cuban cargo ship Habana was sunk. It said the Habana, on contract to the Angolan government for coastal trade, was unloading food. No casualties on the ship were reported.
The official Angolan news agency ANGOP said that in the Thursday morning raid on Namibe, a South African warship armed with Scorpion missiles destroyed two fuel tanks while frogmen planted mines on three ships in the harbor, sinking one of them.
South Africa refused to comment on the raid report.
Helped by Cuban Troops
Cuba has an estimated 30,000 troops in Angola in support of its Marxist government. The Soviet Union has supplied Angola with military hardware.


Panzerskool - Douw Steyn and Arne Soderland's book "Iron fist from the sea" will reveal all when it is published June/July this year. Douw was one of the Attack Divers who lead one of the teams on the above-mentioned raid (Arne is a retired Rear Admiral, who commanded a Strike Craft around that time). All I will say is that no missiles where fired from a Strike Craft in this raid - BTW see below pic of the book's cover.

Although very interesting, I don't want to go into this story too much as we are now heading way off this site's topic...
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 07:55:55 am by Graugrun »

Offline panzerskool

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look forward to the book and will pre order. I have "last battle of the cold war "on preorder as well . Lots coming out now about Cuito.


Thanks for clearing that up.


What about the manufacture of the ASM in SA?

Offline Graugrun

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The 68mm Mechem RO68 has a range of 6,500m. Basically, it was the 68mm SNEB as found on aircraft. This was built with a six-round tripod mounted launcher assembly weighing only 45kg, or 4 tube version which was lighter. Touted at special forces, the cheap, colapsible launcher was disposable. Timer or crew fired, proximity fuse could explode 3 meters above ground, spraying 3000 steel balls. Aimed with standard mortar sight.

I'm unsure whether this has actually been serially produced or productionised, but below are the only 2 pics I've ever seen of this concept, and I've never heard of any service induction over the years.

Just in case you're still interested in this - brochure below..

Offline curious george

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Sorry I cant credit the sources for these as I dont remember where I found them lol.

Offline panzerskool

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still a question for all. Were the Skerpion/ Gabriel simply shipped form Israel or did we make them under license?

Offline compton_effect

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Those IRBM/ICMB pictures look like the ones that are on Encyclopedia Astronautica.
He has a very detailed page about our launcher project and a breakdown of each variant.

Offline Graugrun

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I wanted to build up from the basic stuff and ease into the nuclear stuff later on... so Curious George, I will post much more on the nuke stuff in time to come.

In the meantime, lets up the ant a bit with this very interesting missile/propulsion project (or missile technology demonstrator) - which had various names, L-RAAM being one of them. Development started in the mid 80's IIRC, with the first successful test taking place in 1988. Different sized calibres were also developed and tested - 127mm, 180mm and 230mm that I know of. A speed of Mach 2.3 was attained in tests, and although ranges were never disclosed - talk of over 400km was mentioned at one point.

It's a long story - how did we get it right when even some major powers could not (nozzle-less boost to RAM speed), that we used laser and water/fluid dynamics in the design and research (a very different approach to anyone else - which obviously worked very well for us), why was it never used/tested as part of a full missile (or was it). Was it sold to a few other countries for their use (strong speculation and rumours around that). Will it form part of the new project 'Marlin' BVR air to air missile, was it always meant to be part of T-Darter/B-Darter/S-Darter etc...?

So many questions, so few answers. What we do know is that it was tested successfully on multiple occasions and worked very well (one of these tests is pictured in the brochure below). It was a Somchem product BTW, and not Kentron/Denel Dynamics as is often thought.

I welcome some informed input/debate on this one ;) .


« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 12:33:18 pm by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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Excellent.
 
I had previously only known this under the name "Integral".
I suspect that was the vehicle technology codename.
 
There had been some speculation that it was geared toward a land attack missile, in a role similar to the French ASMP.
Perhaps the larger diameter (230mm) calibre was.
 
It appears from what you have posted that the BVRAAM and SAM versions were the either the sole versions, or more likely the ones to be realised first from the technology.
The brochure also seems pretty sure on many of the details (such as warhead weight, etc) so I now suspect quite a lot of work was done in this regard, over and above the various test flights I've read about.
 
I'd also had these pics below kicking about on my computer, from various sources, pertaining to South African ramjet missiles and BVRAAM's.
They must therefore be related.

 
The first pic below, Somchem Ramjet, I pulled off one of Somchems pages a few years back.

Offline Graugrun

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Nice pics Kaiserbill,

I had read some Somchen brochure in the past that stated that the very first picture you posted was in fact one of Somchen's ramjet artillery designs, it worked as a sort sabot within a 155mm artillery shell, sacrificing payload (size and therefore HE filling) for extreme range (for an artillery shell). It was all part of the 'Loosvoor' (Well-ahead) artillery program, unfortunately AFAIK it was not developed further for either practicality or funding reasons - hopefully someone can fill us in some more on this very interesting and perhaps unique project (pictured again below)



Offline TomS

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Not completely unique. 

Denel had a round called ProRam that was also being worked on in the early 2000s.  It was a full-caliber ramjet artillery round:
 

Images below are slides from: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004armaments/DayII/SessionII/13Fitchat_South_African_COOP.pdf
 

Offline kaiserbill

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Some further info on the South African artillery ramjet projectiles, with some pics and windtunnel results.