Yokosuka P1Y Ginga ("Frances") Variants and Projects

Hi! Ginga variants. Enjoy.
 

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Wow. Many thanks Ed. Jet powered Ginga!
 
No problem! And thanks to you for posting that image of the Nakajima N-50. Never seen a drawing of it. Might be something I try to sneak into Japanese Secret Projects 2. ;D

blackkite said:
Wow. Many thanks Ed. Jet powered Ginga!
 
Hikoki1946 said:
No problem! And thanks to you for posting that image of the Nakajima N-50. Never seen a drawing of it. Might be something I try to sneak into Japanese Secret Projects 2. ;D

blackkite said:
Wow. Many thanks Ed. Jet powered Ginga!
Thanks ! ;)
 

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Just a question: Was the "open window configuration" shown in the first picture actually used
in flight ? There were some bomber types, that are often shown at least with the cockpit hood
open, e.g. the Handley Page Hampden, but newer and faster types mostly not. And the Ginga
actually was quite fast !
 
Jemiba said:
Just a question: Was the "open window configuration" shown in the first picture actually used
in flight ? There were some bomber types, that are often shown at least with the cockpit hood
open, e.g. the Handley Page Hampden, but newer and faster types mostly not. And the Ginga
actually was quite fast !
The designer of Ginga planned to use this configulation in flight.
But I'm not sure whether actually used in flight or not.
I think it's not difficult to open Ginga rear window in flight.
 

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blackkite said:
The designer of Ginga planned to use this configulation in flight. ...

Thank you for this information ! For the rear gunner maybe it could have meant a better field of fire, I think,
but apart from a slightly better visibility, an opened cockpit certainly decreased the aerodynamic efficiency,
so increasing fuel consumption and lessening range. Therer probably were service regulations against it ! ;)
 
Hi! You can see Raiden, Ginga and Toryu in this video.
If you can't watch this video, try to click what I post part. Then push "ファイルを開く".
http://nicoviewer.net/sm3684538
 

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hesham said:

I ran the web page above, which is in Russian through the Google translator. Then I cleaned it up using my best judgement to make it more flowing in English. I believe it's correct but I can't be 100% sure as I do not know Russian. The first half of the page is about the Ginga. Below is the 2nd half of the writeup, where it talks about the Tenga project.

====
Ginga was developed in several versions, and there were plans to use the bomber as a carrier aircraft for special attack missions using the Ohka Model 21 and Ohka Model 22. The company also build a night fighter version, the P1Y2-S, which was produced for IJN in 1944, under the designation Kyokko (极光 - dawn ). Kyokko was equipped with 1,850 hp Mitsubishi Kasei 25a radial engines, as the scale of production of Ginga's original Homare 12 engine could not meet the demand. Armament included two Type 99 Model-2 20 mm cannon obliquely angled forward and upward, and the nose guns were removed. Test flights were held in July 1944. The first flight showed that the high altitude characteristics of Kyokko where it would engage the Boeing B- 29 were not satisfactory. This discovery was so disappointing that the oblique guns were removed and the Kyokko was returned to the interceptor role as Ginga Model 16 (P1Y2). Nakajima also built a similar version as the night fighter P1Y1-S Byakko (白 光 - White Light). Byakko performed a little better than Kyokko, but also did not enter service. Other modifications and modernization projects included the replacement of engines with the Homare 23, the Kasei 25c and the Mitsubishi MK9A, as well as the idea of an assault option with sixteen forward and downward firing 20 mm cannons, as well as the use of steel and wood in the aircraft structure. The most interesting version was the P1Y3 Model 33. This version was to be built from the ground up as a Ohka carrier and had to have a special bomb bay to accommodate Ohka Model 21 or 22, and included an increased wingspan and fuselage length. P1Y3 did not go beyond the drawing board.

The good flight characteristics of the Ginga easily explain why there was an interest in modifying the plane for turbojet propulsion. The Tenga concept was certainly real, but other than the name and the main intention of replacing the radial engines with turbojets nothing more is known. Thus it is necessary to consider other projects in order to make assumptions about what challenges would be encountered when creating a flying example of the Tenga.

The first thing to consider is that the only turbojet used in the production of the Nakajima Kitsuka was the Kugisho Ne 20. If installed under the wing of the Tenga these could not provide this plane with a sufficient thrust. One Ne 20 has a static thrust of 487 kg, a couple of these engines could accelerate the Kitsuka to a speed of 623 km/hr, which was not particularly fast compared to conventional high-speed piston aircraft. Kitsuka was a light aircraft and, therefore the heavier Tenga, using two Ne 20's, would be an unlikely possibility.

It was necessary to make some of the planned improvements to Ne 20 closer to reality and thus be able to provide an adequate Tenga power plant. It was expected that Ne 30 turbojet engine would develop a thrust of 850 kg (better than the German BMW 003 turbojet engine's 800 kg), while the Ishikawajima Ne 130 was designed to create a static thrust of 900 kg, comparable to the thrust of the Junkers Jumo 004. According to calculations the Nakajima Ne 230 [Note: some sources say the Ne 230 was Hitachi instead of Nakajima - Windswords] and the Mitsubishi Ne 330 could develop 885 kg and 1300 kg of static thrust, respectively.

The improved Ne 30 would be the original engine for installation in the Tenga, if they were available. For comparison, the German jet bomber Arado Ar 234B used two Jumo 004 engines. The size of Ar 234B was similar to P1Y1, the noticeable differences between the German and Japanese machines were the smaller wingspan and high mounted wing, and the weight with a full load was lighter by 680 kg. Accordingly, two Jumo 004 engine allowed Ar 234B to reach speeds of 742 km/hr. Of course, installing two Ne 30 engines on a P1Y1 airframe would not provide such a speed, but it would be a logical starting point. It is possible that to improve take-off performance of the Tenga rocket boosters could be installed. It is also clear that the Ne 130 would be a better choice, giving a marked improvement in speed. The problems associated with the development of Ne 30 engines, are cited as reasons for cancellation of the Tenga. Indeed the Ne 30 was an offshoot of the Ne 12, whose development ceased, being surpassed by developments of the Ne 20, Ne 130, Ne 230 and 330.

But could the original Ginga aircraft, which used radial engines, have successfully been replaced with the installation of jet engines? This could be ispolzovaon [?] when trying to improve the design of Tenga. Even changing from radial to turbojet engines would require fairly substantial adjustments of the wing, but, a redesign of the wing for turbojet engines is an easier task than the redesign of the entire aircraft.

However, if we consider the history of military aviation, it will be difficult to find a regular bomber, who piston engines were replaces with turbojets with only a simple change of the power plant and redesigned wing. For example, even among the dozens of projects made by the German jet bombers, alteration piston bombers to turbojets were accompanied by a significant change, if not a complete redesign. One such example was the Messerschmitt Me 264, which during the test flight was equipped with four Jumo 9-211 radial engines. However, the proposed version with four turbojet engines bore little resemblance to the original design.

Perhaps the only noticeable alteration of an existing airframe from propeller to turbojet was the Russian Tupolev Tu-12, which was the successor of one of the most successful Soviet light bombers - the Tu-2. The Tu-2 was built from 1941 to 1948. TU-2 featured high speed, excellent maneuverability, was heavily armed and had a respectable bomb load. When Tupolev responded to the demand of creating a jet bomber, he took the TU- 2 as the basis for his Tu- 12. He used the fuselage, wing and tail of the Tu-2 and adapted them to suit the installation of two Rolls-Royce Nene-1 turbojet engines. Although one can see in the Tu-12 the features of its predecessor, the Tu-2 , it still required total redesign of aircraft to fit the new engines and features, all of this does not seem like a simple replacement of the radial engines with turbojets. Design of the Tu-12 began in 1946, and its first flight took place in June 1947.

It can be concluded that in the original version of the Tenga the designers tried to use as much as possible the structural elements of the Ginga, which had proven flight characteristics. This would reduce development time, as the need for such bombers was extremely urgent. It would also serve as a starting point for aerodynamic testing. However, one can count on one hand the number of bomber converted from piston to turbojet. Most of the jet bombers were developed from the ground up instead of adapting existing aircraft. Tenga designers would have come to a similar conclusion, if they were able to continue their work. If so, the final draft of the Tenga and the prototype may have had little in common with the Ginga with whom it shared its origin.
 
Wow thanks. What a good work your post is! :D
天河(Tenga, sky river, galaxy) is the same meaning of Ginga.
P1Y2-S was a Kyokko(極光, Aurora) night fighter.
 
Pretty much the website retold my chapter on the Tenga (pages 81-83) in Japanese Secret Projects. ;D



windswords said:
hesham said:

I ran the web page above, which is in Russian through the Google translator. Then I cleaned it up using my best judgement to make it more flowing in English. I believe it's correct but I can't be 100% sure as I do not know Russian. The first half of the page is about the Ginga. Below is the 2nd half of the writeup, where it talks about the Tenga project.

====
 
It was a real project, but it was a 'paper project' only and never got to a design or mockup stage.
 
From Japanese wikipedia.
Experimental Tenga was a jet land bomber which exchanged the reciprocating engine carried in Ginga bomber to the turbojet engine called Ne30.But the Tenga project was terminated in the early stage of development.

I find Tenga larger image and Ginga pictures in the net. Enjoy.
Jens! How about the last picture? 
 

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Hikoki1946 said:
Pretty much the website retold my chapter on the Tenga (pages 81-83) in Japanese Secret Projects. ;D

Hikoki,

I finally pulled your book out of storage to look at the Tenga entry (I've just moved and have not unpacked everything). It is almost exactly what you wrote. I guess you can be mad that they copied it or feel flattered that they used your writeup and translated it for their website. :-\ They could at least given you credit for it! :mad:

I have read your book a couple of times now and look at selected entries every so often. I always find something that I did not know or see the first time thru. If anyone here has more than a passing interest in Japanese WWII aviation then this book has to be in your library.
 

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17-shi land reconnaissance plane "Gyoun" (R1Y1)

By the IJN practical aircraft trial production plans in the Showa 16(1941) fiscal year, the land reconnaissance plane, which used only for the on-the-ocean patrol search and locality reconnaissance with an absolute high speed and cruising performance, trial production by Kugisho was planned for the first time in the IJN, and the design was started by making Yukio Otsuki technical major into a specialist person.
It was a 3seat high altitude aircraft equipped with the pressurized cabin which under development by the Kugisho. Required maximum speed of this aircraft was 360kt(667 km/h)/(6,000 m), and required range was 4,000 nm (7,410 km) by speed 250kt (463 km/h) at altitude of 4,000 m.
In order to have high performance, the planned engine was 5,000hp Nu-go engine which combined two NE2A 24 cylinders H shape water cooling engine which under development by Mitsubishi.
However, maximum speed of this configuration limited 345kt (639 km/h) grade and also the nose of an airplane had a large engine, it was presupposed that the view of operation and reconnaissance were limited, and this proposal was given up.
Then, it was decided that this aircraft would be the twin-engine form equipped with the performance gain type of MK10A (18 cylinders of Venus, 2,400hp) under trial production in Mitsubishi as a result of research, and the full-scale design was started in the summer of Showa 17(1942).
From the necessity of hurrying completion of an experimental model as much as possible, the structure was planned same as "Ginga", and the jig, the functional component and the material took into consideration that the same thing of the "Ginga" could be used as it was.
For this reason, appearance of this aircraft had a close resemblance which should also be called "Ginga performance gain type", and although structure was also almost the same, the design was advanced, improving the point that it was difficult for work in the "Ginga."
However, while it was without development of a MK10A engine progressing shortly, the necessity for the small aircraft for high altitude locality reconnaissance began to be emphasized rather than a long-distance reconnaissance plane from the relation of the war situation in southern front.
And as a result of taking up the plan of "Keiun" (R2Y1) with a maximal speed of 400 kt (741 km/h)/10,000 m from the inside of the Kugisho in the summer of Showa 18(1943), it was presupposed that this aircraft was not suitable on the war situation, and the trial production has been stopped.
At the time, the design was progressing about 70% and if this aircraft was completed, that performance was due to reach maximum speed of 370kt (685 km/h) at an altitude of 8,000 m.
Moreover, this 17-shi land reconnaissance plane was due to be called "Gyoun" (R1Y1) or "Seiun(blue cloud)."
 

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Hello! Do you have something the kamikaze version MXY10?
 
sgeorges4 said:
Hello! Do you have something the kamikaze version MXY10?

According to Wikipedia the MXY10 was a ground decoy non-flying replica of Yokosuka P1Y1. In other words a fake to trick US ground attack planes.
 
Welp,for the french wikipedia,they say this is a kamikaze ginga.
 
sgeorges4 said:
Welp,for the french wikipedia,they say this is a kamikaze ginga.

Hmm, maybe Blackkite can check Japanese Wikipedia or other sources. ???
 
I think Edwin Dyer's Secret Project's mentions this aircraft as a decoy also...

Don't have the book with me as I am currently at university!
 
Do we have any more information about the multi-cannon ginga? With the belly cannons?

Real photograph, official designation, and performance etc?
Many thanks!

BclA8BAGoUCQpqQW
 
CherryBlossom said:
Do we have any more information about the multi-cannon ginga? With the belly cannons?

Real photograph, official designation, and performance etc?
Many thanks!

BclA8BAGoUCQpqQW

That's new for me ?.
 
I have seen a similar arrangement of weapons on a drawing of the Fugaku bomber. In the case of the Fugaku, it was said it would fly above the B-29 formations and shoot down on them with the multi-cannons. That may have been the idea behind the P1Y1 Mukade. Twenty millimeter seems like overkill if it's for anti-personnel. I do wonder if this concept is a post war idea and not anything that was considered during the war. I have not seen any references to war time documents, allied or Japanese, about this version.
 
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Can anyone find any performance estimates for the P1Y5, mounting the Mitsubishi Ha-43 engines? It seems one was built, but that's all the information I can find
 
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