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Author Topic: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945  (Read 14857 times)

Offline Jemiba

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Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« on: April 19, 2013, 03:31:43 am »
From "Der Flieger", August 1962, maybe interesting for one or two, as one-offs and projects are mentioned, too.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Wurger

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2013, 02:53:47 am »
It sure is very interesting to me, Jens. Thanks for sharing this. Can I be rude enough to ask if that magazine has illustrations on DB engines :) ?

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2013, 03:47:36 am »
Just a few:   ;)
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Wurger

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2013, 04:04:09 am »
Swell!

Offline Wurger

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2013, 11:47:19 am »
I can tell that the DB 608 is missing from that thorough list. It was a development of the DB 601 optimized for high altitudes, with 37l displacement and producing 1650Hp.
I`ve never seen that DB 624 photo. Great!!

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2013, 04:31:47 pm »
From an old issue of Luftfahrt International, all the versions of the DB 601:

Online hesham

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2014, 05:03:41 am »
From Flugzeug 5/1991,


here is the DB-609.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 05:17:04 am by hesham »

Offline tartle

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2014, 10:10:55 am »
Don't forget J.A.W.'s link in 'increasing the charge'
"... prototypes are a way of letting you think out loud. You want the right people to think aloud with you.” - Paul MacCready, aeronautical engineer.

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2014, 07:15:23 pm »
& a rare vid of a brace of DB 603s in action.. ..these are not running in opposite rotation..



 
"I choose to believe - what I am programmed to believe.."

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2014, 06:12:39 pm »
Here, a wartime British translation of an early D-B effort in the piston engine performance technology race..

http://kurfurst.org/Engine/Boostclearances/DB601AN_RPM_increse_nov40.PNG


This concerns the D-B way of increasing rpm, even from a fairly long stroke mill, & limiting boost while
maintaining high-ish static compression ratios as a means of maintaining fuel efficiency..
"I choose to believe - what I am programmed to believe.."

Offline GTX

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2014, 06:22:02 pm »
& a rare vid of a brace of DB 603s in action.. ..these are not running in opposite rotation..




Errr...this video doesn't see to play.  Can you please provide a link to it in YouTube?

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2014, 06:30:12 pm »
Suggestion..
If it is of sufficient interest..
You could try pushing the "'view on youtube" option..
"I choose to believe - what I am programmed to believe.."

Offline GTX

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2014, 06:43:21 pm »
Suggestion..
If it is of sufficient interest..
You could try pushing the "'view on youtube" option..


It s not giving me that option which is why I asked.

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2014, 06:45:46 pm »
Sorry GTX, & - I don't know why it wont work for you, I have had no issues running it thusly.

( Try - hitting the 'youtube' logo & take from there, I just did, & it runs, sans issues..)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 06:48:51 pm by J.A.W. »
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Offline Hot Breath

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2014, 11:13:24 pm »
From Flugzeug 5/1991,


here is the DB-609.

Is there any clue as to what project was going to use the pusher installation?

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2014, 08:08:34 pm »
This link provides some data concerning the D-B effort technologically - to uprate the later Bf 109 power-wise..
& specifically.. the longstanding rivalry with R-R/Spitfire..

http://kurfurst.atw.hu/articles/MW_KvsXIV.htm
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 08:10:30 pm by J.A.W. »
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Offline tartle

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2014, 03:31:02 am »
J A W- that is food for thought. Comparisons of aircraft performance around the BoB by both sides was biased by their doctrines ... they were pretty closely matched leapfrogging each other as new marks were introduced. When I have a moment I'll revisit the specific power vs year curves of the Merlin and DB's. David Isby's Decisive Duel book certainly explains the operational viewpoints in Chapter 18 but we should continue to focus on the power to fly. I'll post a revised curve if necessary when I've studied and considered the results.
"... prototypes are a way of letting you think out loud. You want the right people to think aloud with you.” - Paul MacCready, aeronautical engineer.

Online hesham

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2014, 04:44:06 am »
Hi Hot Breath,


the DB-609 was intended to use on Daimler-Benz DB Jager project;


http://www.luft46.com/db/dbjager.html

Offline Hot Breath

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2014, 06:54:51 pm »
Thanks but the illustrated nacelle for the DB609 that I asked about looks more like it is intended for a twin-engine aicraft, hanging under a wing.   If anything, it looks very similar to a He219 nacelle to my eye but it might just be the annular radiator that does that.

Offline tartle

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2014, 06:00:33 am »
Didn't DB have a fighter project with the 609 in the nose and two contra rotating props just aft of cockpit?
"... prototypes are a way of letting you think out loud. You want the right people to think aloud with you.” - Paul MacCready, aeronautical engineer.

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2014, 12:49:58 am »
This link gives some guff on the late D-B 605 as employed by the final wartime Bf109 types..

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techref/systems/engine/as_vs_d/as_vs_d.htm
"I choose to believe - what I am programmed to believe.."

Offline Johnbr

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2016, 11:59:52 am »
This the best photo of the db-624 I have seen.

Offline Wurger

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2016, 09:37:40 am »
I concur :). Simply lovely!

Offline Johnbr

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2016, 06:39:29 am »
Db-605 poster.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 09:34:22 am by Johnbr »

Offline Johnbr

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2016, 12:15:33 pm »
The Db-007 jet engine.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 06:00:37 pm by Johnbr »

Offline Johnbr

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2016, 12:17:06 pm »
Db-007 and db-016  Thrust: 1,275kg (static), 960kg (sea level, 900 km/h), 560kg (6,000m, 900 km/h)

Compressor speed: 12,600 rpm

Ducted fan speed: 6,200 rpm

Weight: 1,300 kg (prototypes), 1,100 kg (production)

Specific fuel consumption: 1.05 per hour (12,000m, 520 km/h), 1.45 per hour (sea level, 810 km/h)

Airflow (compressor): 8.2 kg/sec

Airflow (ducted fan): 19.9 kg/sec

Diameter: 1.625 m

Length: 4.725m
Db-016  Thrust: 13,000kg (static)

Compressor speed: 3,500 rpm

Airflow: 400 kg/sec

Diameter: 2.0 m

Length: 6.70 m
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 09:48:09 am by Johnbr »

Offline Johnbr

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2016, 07:06:42 am »
DB-628
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 09:32:59 am by Johnbr »

Offline moin1900

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2017, 05:03:02 am »
Here the Daimler-Benz Jäger DB609 Patent

DE852943
Daimler Benz 07.05.1942
"Flugzeugtriebwerk mit frei angeströmtem, in einer Ringdüse
vor dem Motor angeordnetem Ring- oder Trommelkühler"

https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=einsteiger


Offline Foo Fighter

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2017, 09:25:09 am »
How does one find the information there when I have no idea what is what or where?  Thanks.

Offline Johnbr

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2017, 12:02:04 am »
 DB-612, a cylinder head engine, because it did not use "mushroom" valves but rotating discs with ports that in their turn coincided with the exhaust and intake ports of the cylinder head.
  outer gear teeth that connected with all the discs, turning at the same time in its position of correct draft. A butt without the disks and another with them installed. This system can be a variant of the famous Burt-McCollum-style sliding tube engines (without valves
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 12:49:53 pm by Johnbr »

Offline Johnbr

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2017, 06:07:35 pm »
 :-X The DE-607 was a similar diesel in architecture and size at "603" for 1750 hp. It was abandoned and did not go into production.This was a four-stroke diesel engine, whose initial development was at the behest of Lufthansa, later however its usefulness to long-range military aircraft was also realised. The first engine was running in 1939, however the V3 and V4 (1940/41) were only experimental engines. Dimensions were similar to the DB 603. Take-off power was 1100 KW (1,500 HP) and with development should have reached 1285 KW (1750 HP) at 1500 rpm. If this had been successful then with a weight of 860 kg a power to weight ratio of 0,49 kg/HP would have resulted. Sources differ as to when it was cancelled, the earliest states 1941 the latest October 1942.DB 630, a 36 cylinder Double W engine with a capacity of 89 litres and output in the 4,000 HP class (2,940 KW). Dr. Berger calculated the optimal cylinder arrangement angles should be 40° + 40° + 100° and it was designed to use only one crankshaft. Development was abandoned in April 1943.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 06:53:04 pm by Johnbr »

Offline Wurger

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2017, 10:39:43 am »
Hi John,

the DVL`s sliding discs (drehscheiben) were a clever and simpler method when compared with the Burt McCollum system, itself ingenius.Had they time enough to develop it would be functional.
Stay aware because there are another edition of Bernard & Graefe`s "Flugmotoren & Strahltreibwerke" on the run.

Offline Pasoleati

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2018, 07:23:37 pm »
How did the rotating disc valves perform in testing? As for the comparison with sleeve valves, I think these rotary valves are inferior due to the fact that the combustion chamber design is pretty much the same for rotary and poppet valves whereas the sleeve valve system allows optimum combustion chamber design. Sleeve valves coupled with direct injection (direct injection allows better cylinder scavenging that carbs/singe point injection) would have been a truly great design. 

Earlier it was mentioned how DB chose to increase compression ratio while keepiong boopst low. That was an utterly stupic decision. While raising compression ratio improves fuel consumption a bit and power too, it raises maximum cylinder pressure (factor determining how strong the engine construction has to be plus how detonation-resistant fuel one needs) while BMEP curve rises only gradually. On the other hand, keeping CR low and using high boost as the means of increasing power, cylinder max. pressure rises much less in comparison with BMEP (power) rise while allowing the power increase with lower octane fuel. Remember that Allison reduced the CR with the ultimate G-series V-1710.

I have been reading old Shell Aviation News magazines. A certain Sir Harry Ricardo was one of the authors writing for it and he has a most interesting graph showing the effect of CR on BMEP and max. peak pressure. Needs opnly a quick look to make one wonder what the hell was DB thinking. BTW, the DB 605A was prone to burned pistons and for considerable time the use of emergency rating was banned due to this. And burned pistons indicate high peak pressure and temperature within cylinders. 

Offline Johnbr

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2019, 06:12:04 am »
 ;)

Offline Johnbr

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2019, 06:18:31 am »
 ;)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 06:40:59 am by Johnbr »

Offline Johnbr

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Re: Daimler Benz Aircraft Engines 1935 - 1945
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2019, 06:42:52 am »
 ;)