Boeing F-15EX/QA and related variants

sferrin said:
Pioneer said:
The fact that the USAF had known and employed IRST on its Convair F-102 Delta Dagger’s from 1956.

Funny thing is many US fighters have had IR sensors on them. In addition to the Tomcat and F-102 there was the F-101, F-106, F-4, F-8, XF-108, YF-12, and probably others I'm missing.


I wonder how much functional use IRST got on those platforms? Except for the TCS on the F-14, it always seemed like RADAR was *the* sensor of choice.
 
Jeb said:
sferrin said:
Pioneer said:
The fact that the USAF had known and employed IRST on its Convair F-102 Delta Dagger’s from 1956.

Funny thing is many US fighters have had IR sensors on them. In addition to the Tomcat and F-102 there was the F-101, F-106, F-4, F-8, XF-108, YF-12, and probably others I'm missing.


I wonder how much functional use IRST got on those platforms? Except for the TCS on the F-14, it always seemed like RADAR was *the* sensor of choice.

That'd be a question for some of the older pilots over on F-16.net.
 
I don't think they were used much. They were bedevilled by false alarm rates and (absent fusion) were one more thing for the pilot to monitor.
 
I guess I just don't understand why, if Japan can do it right, why can't we?

I take the analogy that the USAF willingly took its eye off the ball, when it came to the F-15 in its service, when it got infatuated with the 'paper' capabilities and wet-dream about its F-22 and F-35! Poor old Eagle's, I guess if they could talk, they'd understand what its poor cuz - the A-10 Thunderbolt II has had to contend with all its life! ::)

Regards
Pioneer
 
Pioneer said:
I guess I just don't understand why, if Japan can do it right, why can't we?

I take the analogy that the USAF willingly took its eye off the ball, when it came to the F-15 in its service, when it got infatuated with the 'paper' capabilities and wet-dream about its F-22 and F-35!

You do realize the design of the F-15 was wrapped up about 15 years before they even started talking about the F-22 right?
 
He's talking about the advanced upgrades (and at least one new variant) that were shelved in the expectation that the ATF would shortly be coming down the road.
 
I seem to recall the F-14 IRST was used to provide visual confirmation of target friend/foe status and not for missile guidance. As has been mentioned already, a passive imaging sensor can’t give you range unless you calculate parallax over a tangential distance relative to the target bearing. You would not have enough information to select between a short or long range missile.


If you want an optical alternative to radar, it would have to be a LIDAR. This would give you both bearing and range. If I were trying to come up with a way to counter radar stealth, I would be experimenting with ways to shrink a kilowatt class beacon laser into a fighter nosecone plus an associated beam director. The Airborne Laser (before it was killed), had a TIL (Track Illuminator Laser) designed to provide this function (coaxial to the main HEL laser and fired through the 1.5 meter beam director).
 
Grey Havoc said:
He's talking about the advanced upgrades (and at least one new variant) that were shelved in the expectation that the ATF would shortly be coming down the road.

He's talking about IRSTs and for the F-15 that was killed in the crib just like it was with the F-22. As for advanced F-15s, even the F-15 MANX didn't have an IRST.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1996/1996%20-%203017.html?search=F-15 MANX
 
JFC Fuller said:
Why not just a ranging laser built into the IRST?


The IRST is a large field of view sensor. If your ranging laser is to compute range for anything within that FOV, it would have to be exceedingly powerful and then you would get range readings for everything within that FOV at the same time. If you arrange the rangefinder beam to be restricted to a small FOV (say 1mrad), then you need to point it to match whatever is showing up in the image display of the IRST. Now you need a gimbal system.
 
No worries. There are at least two other versions of the name in use -- I've also seen Television Camera System and Telescopic Camera System.
 
fredymac said:
JFC Fuller said:
Why not just a ranging laser built into the IRST?


The IRST is a large field of view sensor. If your ranging laser is to compute range for anything within that FOV, it would have to be exceedingly powerful and then you would get range readings for everything within that FOV at the same time. If you arrange the rangefinder beam to be restricted to a small FOV (say 1mrad), then you need to point it to match whatever is showing up in the image display of the IRST. Now you need a gimbal system.

Not at all, as with LIDAR/LADAR. The laser beam can be steered with a tiny mirror or two. No need for anything gimballed.

example from quick google:_ http://www.spectrolab.com/pv/support/Low-cost_compact_MEMS_scanning_LADAR_system_for_robotic.pdf
 
F-14D said:
The IR on those earlier a/c (note that in the case of those three USAF aircraft they were all interceptors), IR was mostly detection and not really intended to supply a usable track, mostly just search and detect. Plus, an image was not formed, just a detection.

I remember the story as the opposite.

The early jet fuselage-mounted IR sensors were used to cue the Sidewinder and Falcon missiles on the target for a quicker lock-on.
This became unnecessary once the AIM-9 seeker got better.
 
He's talking about IRSTs and for the F-15 that was killed in the crib just like it was with the F-22. As for advanced F-15s, even the F-15 MANX didn't have an IRST.
Correct! Thanks Sferrin ;)

Regards
Pioneer
 
lastdingo said:
fredymac said:
JFC Fuller said:
Why not just a ranging laser built into the IRST?


The IRST is a large field of view sensor. If your ranging laser is to compute range for anything within that FOV, it would have to be exceedingly powerful and then you would get range readings for everything within that FOV at the same time. If you arrange the rangefinder beam to be restricted to a small FOV (say 1mrad), then you need to point it to match whatever is showing up in the image display of the IRST. Now you need a gimbal system.

Not at all, as with LIDAR/LADAR. The laser beam can be steered with a tiny mirror or two. No need for anything gimballed.

example from quick google:_ http://www.spectrolab.com/pv/support/Low-cost_compact_MEMS_scanning_LADAR_system_for_robotic.pdf


That tiny mirror equates to a big spot given any significant range. That may not matter depending on your particular application. For ranging to small objects over long range and where you don't want to convolve multiple targets, you need a big mirror to launch the beam. A spatially resolved Lidar will be monostatic (laser is projected through the same telescope that feeds the receiver). In a way, LIDAR is architecturally similar to HEL systems. A typical bistatic arrangement where the laser is projected independent of the telescope usually injects the beam onto a flat mirror positioned just in front of the secondary mirror mount of the receiver telescope. This keeps the beam coaxial vs range. And speaking of range, aperture matters. The bigger the aperture, the longer the range. Signal returns drop as 1/range squared.
 
[...]Boeing will also use the AFA conference to market a new configuration of its F-15 fighter.


The new design features 16 air-to-air weapons, doubling the number currently available on the jet. To accommodate the additional weaponry, the new design alters the location of the fuel tanks.


Marketing a new configuration for the F-15 makes sense, as the line is expected to expire before the end of the decade. More details are expected to be available at the show, held Sept. 14-16.


Carter also visited the new design, which was on display at the facility.
Sources: http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/defense/policy-budget/industry/2015/09/09/boeing-to-provide-first-glimpse-of-t-x-at-conference/71979416/
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/boeings-touts-new-16-air-to-air-missile-carrying-f-15-e-1730258333
 

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So this looks to be F-15 Advanced, which is basically the Saudi F-15SA adapted to the single-seat models.
 
That would be good for Cruise Missile defense.


I am surprised they did not show the version with 20 AAMs.
 
SpudmanWP said:
That would be good for Cruise Missile defense.

I'm on the fence there. It's only going to be effective if the aircraft happens to be in the air (putting flight hours on many live rounds), and in the right spot when the cruise missiles are detected. I'd think something like SM-6 with AWACS/aerostats would be able to cover a larger area for less money. Even better/cheaper would be something like SLAMRAAM-ER with a tandem booster (think skinny Terrier/RIM-67 configuration) with CEC.
 
fightingirish said:
[...]Boeing will also use the AFA conference to market a new configuration of its F-15 fighter.


The new design features 16 air-to-air weapons, doubling the number currently available on the jet. To accommodate the additional weaponry, the new design alters the location of the fuel tanks.


Marketing a new configuration for the F-15 makes sense, as the line is expected to expire before the end of the decade. More details are expected to be available at the show, held Sept. 14-16.


Carter also visited the new design, which was on display at the facility.
Sources: http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/defense/policy-budget/industry/2015/09/09/boeing-to-provide-first-glimpse-of-t-x-at-conference/71979416/
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/boeings-touts-new-16-air-to-air-missile-carrying-f-15-e-1730258333
About 100 F-15s with 16 AMRAAMs each could take on the entire Iranian air force :eek:
 
Combining these huge missile loads with the new IRST/datalink pods could make the F-15 interesting as a sort of Linebacker or Missileer, lobbing missiles from long range to give the close-in F-22s a large "virtual magazine" capacity.
 
"Boeing doubles F-15C missile load in '2040C' Eagle upgrade"
15 September, 2015 BY: James Drew Washington DC

Source:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-doubles-f-15c-missile-load-in-2040c-eagle-u-416766/

Boeing has unveiled an up-gunned version of its supersonic F-15C air superiority jet designed to keep the aging fleet operationally relevant through 2040.

Called 2040C, the upgrade package includes “quad pack” munitions racks designed to double the aircraft’s air-to-air missile payload to 16 and conformal fuel tanks for extended-range flights.

For communications, Boeing is naturally offering “Talon HATE” – the air force’s programme of record for connecting the F-15 with Lockheed Martin’s F-22 Raptor.

In terms of survivability, Boeing’s package includes Raytheon’s APG-63(v)3 active synthetically scanned array (AESA) radar and a long-range infrared search and track (IRST) sensor for “first sight, first shot, first kill” air-to-air combat.

2040C continues delivery of the Northrop Grumman’s Eagle Passive/Active Warning Survivability System (EPAWSS) systems – a programme designed to equip the fourth-generation F-15 with the latest electronic warfare capabilities.

Boeing vice president of F-15 programs Mike Gibbons says the 2040C concept is an evolution of the Silent Eagle proposed to South Korea, with some low-observable improvements but mostly a focus on the latest air capabilities and lethality.

“F-15s and F-22s in the fight together in the future out there in the 2030s; the assessment and analysis we’ve done points to this as a nice solution set for the air force,” he said at an Air Force Association conference in Washington. “The air force has funded some of these and we’re in discussions about the others, but many are funded programmes of record.”

“Doubling the number of missiles on the jet is not something that’s a current programme of record, but it is something we know is of interest to the air force.”

Gibbons says instead of carrying weapons internally to reduce the Eagle’s radar cross section, the “evolving threat” – Russia and China’s fielding of advanced fighter jets – favours more weapons, according to Boeing.

The Pentagon capped F-22 production at 195, forcing the air force to keep the F-15C in service far longer than planned, and current operating concepts team the two jets for a high-low mix.

Boeing sees a market for more than 200 active-duty and air national guard F-15C upgrades, and the new payloads could be delivered as part of a future service-life-extension programme (SLEP).

Gibbons says some USAF F-15Cs have more than 20,000h of flight time remaining on the airframe, whereas other are in the low teens and would require new wings and vertical tales.

Speaking at a media roundtable 15 September, Air Combat Command commander Gen Hawk Carlisle said the F-15C will require a life-extension programme in the near future and the added capabilities being offered by Boeing will be considered as part of that.

The upgrade would be a “significant bill,” but he says the planning for that needs to start now in the absence of more F-22s. Boeing is also targeting international F-15C operators including Japan, Israel and Saudi Arabia.
 
"Boeing Positions F-15 as F-22 Supplement"
by Aaron Mehta 2:51 p.m. EDT September 15, 2015

Source:
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/show-daily/afa/2015/09/15/boeing-positions-f-15-as-f-22-supplement/72316414/

NATIONAL HARBOR, Md. — In an effort to extend its F-15 business, Boeing unveiled a new upgrade package for the F-15C design — one specifically targeting an air superiority gap left from the decision to cut production on the F-22.

The new design, part of an effort dubbed "F-15 C2040" by the company, would double the number of air-to-air weapons carried by the F-15C from eight to 16 while adding conformal fuel tanks for enhanced distance.

It would also feature updated electronics, including a long-range Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST) sensor and the already planned Eagle Passive/Active Warning Survivability System (EPAWSS). It would also feature an updated AESA radar.

The upgrades being proposed are not one large package. Rather, the company is offering a menu of options, one which can be targeted both at the 250 air dominance F-15s in the US inventory and the hundreds used by international customers abroad.

Mike Gibbons, F-15 program manager for Boeing, said the idea of this particular configuration came from a realization that "there is a real challenge the Air Force faces with air superiority."

Boeing's marketing theory goes something like this. The F-22 was supposed to be the air superiority backbone of the Air Force for years to come, working hand in hand with the F-35 to provide a high-end air capability. But then the F-22 program was cancelled well short of projected totals.

Gen. Mark Welsh, Air Force chief of staff, acknowledged the challenge caused by the curtailed F-22 fleet in an exclusive interview with Defense News.

The F-35, Welsh said, "was never designed to be the next dog fighting machine. It was designed to be the multipurpose, data-integration platform that could do all kinds of things in the air-to-ground arena including dismantle enemy, integrated, air defenses. It had an air-to-air capability, but it was not intended to be an air-superiority fighter. That was the F-22."

For Boeing, the argument then is that an upgraded F-15C can help bridge the gap left by the F-22 cutback, at least until the next-generation air dominance program comes online in large numbers — around 2040.

Which isn't to say upgraded F-15s will replace the F-22. Indeed, Boeing is expressly positioning the system as an integrated capability with the F-22, thanks to its Talon HATE program.

Speaking to reporters last week in St. Louis, Boeing executives gave a first glance at the pod, which is on contract with the Air Force for 4 EMD pods. The pod is designed to allow easy data transfer between F-22 and F-15, built around the Boeing "Phantom Fusion" computer system.

Gibbons confirmed the Talon HATE pod is part of the upgrade package being discussed. He added that while the pod comes with an IRST capability, it is not the long-range IRST being discussed for the 2040C package.

Backlog orders on the F-15 line run out in 2019. While denying that means the end of the F-15 line in St. Louis, Gibbons did acknowledge it puts pressure on the Air Force to decide whether it wants these upgrades "in the next few" budget cycles.

Gibbons also said the work is largely non-evasive, with the exception of EPAWSS — which is already planned to be installed across the fleet in the early 2020s. That would provide an ideal window to do other depot work, he noted.

Speaking to reporters later in the day, Gen. Hawk Carlisle, the head of Air Combat Command, acknowledged that a capability upgrade would be nice, but that a service life extension program, or SLEP, is more important.

"When we look at the stress tests we've done on the f15c and were doing on the f15 and f16 there are issues were gonna have to do for service life extension with respect to the structural integrity of the airplane, so were working on those and what were gonna have to do in the future,

"If I could find a way with resources, I would do everything I could when we put those airplanes in to do a service life extension program and fix the structural issues, I would do everything in my power to try to do capabilities upgrade at the same time," he said. "I will try to do as much of that as I can find the resources."

As to how much a SLEP program would cost, Carlisle said the analysis is underway but "we know it's a pretty significant bill in the billions of dollars."
 
I wonder if those quad rails could be transplanted to other platforms; it'd be impressive to see Super Hornets and F-35s fitted with them on their 2000lb+ hardpoints.
 
I'm wondering if the intent is mainly to serve as flying magazines for the F-22s. Unless they come up with something with more range than an AIM-120D I can't see more missiles making the F-15 any more survivable against something like a J-20 or T-50 as it's not the quantity of missiles that puts it at a disadvantage.
 
Here's what I think is interesting. Last year, or two years ago, whenever, Boeing pushed out the Silent Eagle program, which stealthed up the F-15 at the expense of missile carriage. I think a Silent Eagle in full LO configuration carried four internal AIM-120Cs? And buyers yawned.


Now Boeing's done a total 180 on the idea of what an advanced F-15 would be and doubled (or more) the missile load, which screams "screw stealth, more warshots!" but also acquiesces[/size] to the F-35 as the de facto standard for stealth airpower going forward.
[/size]
[/size]I guess if you can't be Snake Eyes, might as well be Roadblock. ;D
 
sferrin - there was some talk of integrating F-15's with F-22s, using F-22s as forward recon then passing data back to F-15s. The IRST pod was supposed to be integral with that.

It looks like Boeing is taking the logical conclusion of that program, making the ultimate missile truck to support F-22s.

But, I agree with you that AIM-120D won't have enough range to make this really viable. It'd make much more sense with a Meteor class AAM or one of those absurdly long range Russian ones.
 
sferrin said:
I'm wondering if the intent is mainly to serve as flying magazines for the F-22s. Unless they come up with something with more range than an AIM-120D I can't see more missiles making the F-15 any more survivable against something like a J-20 or T-50 as it's not the quantity of missiles that puts it at a disadvantage.

I understand that Boeing Phantom Works and Raytheon are still working on the DARPA Triple Target Terminator (T3) program.

"Boeing Phantom Works May Unveil New Projects"
by Bill Sweetman
Jun 15, 2015

Source:
http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show-2015/boeing-phantom-works-may-unveil-new-projects

[Boeing Phantom Works President Darryl] Davis disclosed that the Phantoms had conducted four flight tests under the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency's Triple Target Terminator (T3) program. The test vehicles, about the size of an AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile, flew "faster and farther" than an Amraam, Davis said, but he did not provide any other details.

We'll see whether this is deployed as the replacement to the AIM-120 AMRAAM and AGM-88 HARM like the cancelled Next Generation Missile (NGM).

Triple Target Terminator (T3) topic:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11188.0.html
 
DrRansom said:
sferrin - there was some talk of integrating F-15's with F-22s, using F-22s as forward recon then passing data back to F-15s. The IRST pod was supposed to be integral with that.

It looks like Boeing is taking the logical conclusion of that program, making the ultimate missile truck to support F-22s.

But, I agree with you that AIM-120D won't have enough range to make this really viable. It'd make much more sense with a Meteor class AAM or one of those absurdly long range Russian ones.

 
sferrin said:
DrRansom said:
sferrin - there was some talk of integrating F-15's with F-22s, using F-22s as forward recon then passing data back to F-15s. The IRST pod was supposed to be integral with that.

It looks like Boeing is taking the logical conclusion of that program, making the ultimate missile truck to support F-22s.

But, I agree with you that AIM-120D won't have enough range to make this really viable. It'd make much more sense with a Meteor class AAM or one of those absurdly long range Russian ones.


AIM-152 AAAM was cancelled in 1992.

Image of the Hughes-Raytheon design.

Source:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-152.html
 

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Raytheon could dust off FRAAM (Future Medium Range Air to Air Missile), a modified ramjet powered version of the Hughes (now Raytheon) AIM-120 AMRAAM.
 

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Triton said:
Raytheon could dust off FRAAM (Future Medium Range Air to Air Missile), a modified ramjet powered version of the Hughes (now Raytheon) AIM-120 AMRAAM.

True, but that GD/Westinghouse design was even more compact. With a lofting trajectory, and multiple pulse motors I wouldn't be surprised if it out could out distance Meteor.
 
The GD version was the version I thought would hold the most promise.


Put a 1/2 sized booster on the 1st stage and 2-3 could fit in the place of each F-22 Sidewinder and 6-8 full size ones could fit in each F-22 internal bay.


UAVs, IFR, & ISR assets could carry carry just the 1st stage as a self-defense measure.
 

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