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Author Topic: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes  (Read 101182 times)

Online hesham

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Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« on: September 13, 2006, 09:07:57 am »
Hi,

some little known aircraft:
Delanne DL-190 sailplane.

[see this topic for all Delanne projects and prototypes — Mod.]
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15821.0.html
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 04:26:43 am by hesham »

Online hesham

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2006, 09:03:31 am »
Hi,

FBA-180 : single engined flying boat aircraft.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 08:31:56 am by Stargazer2006 »

Offline Archibald

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2006, 03:38:24 am »
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline JC Carbonel

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2006, 12:56:25 am »
for all those interested I can as well advertise my own work :

http://modelarchives.free.fr/Bestiaire/index.html this page covers many weird French designs around the two world wars and all the texts are bilingual French / English

example :


Dorand's VTOL mailplane (thirties)

Fauvel AV31 transport plane (1943)

Lecheres patent for a VTOL flying wing (1943-44)

Chappedelaine Gyroptère : a "spinner" type machine of the late twenties

JCC

Online hesham

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2006, 11:51:46 am »
Hi,

Levy :triplane patrol flying boat of 1922.

Levy-Biche LB-4: single engined reconnaissance seaplane. [see here]
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 10:17:55 am by Stargazer2006 »

Online hesham

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2006, 07:29:17 am »
Hallo dears,

some little known aircraft:


Bloch MB.170 single engined single seat racer aircraft (not related to MB.170 twin engined reconnaissance aircraft).

Mureaux ANF-150 racer aircraft.

Bechereau (SRAP) T-7: single engined sesquiplane as transport biplane.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 10:17:40 am by Stargazer2006 »

Online hesham

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2007, 04:30:42 am »
Hi,

The little known Lucien Chauviere Gyroptere of 1927,which powered by one
230 hp Renault engine.

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2007, 06:45:39 am »
Regarding to the Chauviere Gyroptere, the first look may be
misleading. It's not an autogiro, but a true compound helicopter.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Online hesham

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2007, 10:38:49 am »
Thank you my dear Jemiba,

The W. Margoulis was designed in 1922 tilt-propeller triplane,and powered
 by two 320 hp ABC Dragonfly engines,mounted between the top two wings
and remained a project.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2007, 10:40:33 am by hesham »

Offline Tophe

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2010, 09:21:39 am »
Sorry, there is not a single word of text about it. And the data do not mention weapons nor use. Only mysterious word that may have a meaning: "Laboratory Type" but that may mean simply "experimental", otherwise the use may be transporting measure apparatus for something scientific.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2010, 02:21:32 pm »
Sorry, there is not a single word of text about it. And the data do not mention weapons nor use. Only mysterious word that may have a meaning: "Laboratory Type" but that may mean simply "experimental", otherwise the use may be transporting measure apparatus for something scientific.

Probably an old French equivalent to "test-bed"...

Offline airman

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2011, 07:01:34 am »
This thread is really interesting : french projects of wwii was really obscure like title of this thread !  :)
Until now naturally : with internet !  :D
writers , bloggers , content-curators ,  music composer and passionate of militaria and uchronia

Offline Tophe

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2011, 09:13:11 am »
In the Trait d’Union #138, this is a mystery.
After the very classical Kellner-Bechereau E60 trainer (1st flight March 1940) is another 3-view drawing of twin-pusher with a weird wing. Nothing in the text there explains what this is. The only explanation I found could be a text 3 pages before in the introduction: "Béchereau designed a glider with a weird shape, a double crescent wing for a fighter project. From this glider project, Béchereau designed a motor-glider with two 7hp engines and the first drawer wing". The date seems between 1932 and 1936.

Offline Tophe

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2011, 07:03:19 am »
In the Trait d'Union #194 (Nov-Dec 2000): "in 1932, Paul Dutou designed a twin-boom pusher with Maurice Arnoux. Monoplane with low wing and a Salmson 9 cylinders 60hp. Not built."
EDIT: In the Trait d'Union #224 (Nov-Dec 2005) is this addition: "this twin-boomer was named D.T.G (unknown meaning), tested at wind-tunnel, removable wings. Length 7;5m Total weight 525kg empty 280kg speed range 75-185km/h"
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 10:04:12 am by Tophe »

Offline Tophe

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2011, 07:20:02 am »
In the Trait d'Union #208 (Mar-Apr 2003): "in 1934, someone named Goudant designed a flying boat with variable area wing. Two half wings (of 6.25m x 2m) disappear inside the the thick wing. 4 engines, speed near 300km/h, not built."

Offline Tophe

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2011, 07:38:40 am »
Well, I took my old T.U. collection to gather twin-boom projects but I am glad to find another pearl:
From the same Trait d'Union #207: "In 1934, Pierre Gemy designed a machine that was not intended to fly but only to learn. What was called at that time a "roller" (? "rouleur" in French). When speed is high enough, only the main wheel supports the machine, with balance controlled by the pilot. Wing of 6m x 1m. Empty weight 150kg. Engine Harley of 14 or 15hp. Not finished in 1936. Actual rolling not confirmed."

Offline Tophe

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2011, 09:28:26 am »
Still in this Trait d'Union #217 is the wonderful tandem-wing Lachassagne family and also:
"Jacques Lagarde designed in 1936 with Richard a project of transoceanic airplane with 'controlled lift'. The wing featured (uneasy to translate!) 'des volets de courbure commandés par des girouettes Constantin' controlling Cz in flight. Span 62m Length 40m Total weight 105t with 15t load Power 15,600hp total Max speed 440km/h Range 8000km. The same Lagarde designed the Millet-Lagarde ML.10 twin-boomer after 1945."

Offline lark

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2011, 11:29:00 am »
Once again ,a breathtaking contribution Tophe...
Many thanks.

Offline Tophe

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2011, 09:07:37 am »
(The search does not find this)
Pierre Dubs in 1937 designed a glider with "living wing" using "girouettes Constantin"
(source: Trait d'Union #194 Nov-Dec 2000)

Offline Tophe

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2011, 09:16:22 am »
(The search does not find this)
(source: Trait d'Union #194 Nov-Dec 2000)
As well:
A. Dujardin designed during WW2 a giant flying boat of 250t with turbojets (4 for lift and 4 for speed). Length 127m Span 106m.

Offline Tophe

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2011, 10:13:25 am »
During WW2, the French engineer De Lazarieff designed a twin-engine aircraft to carry passengers or for training.
Span 13.25m Length 9.92m Height 3.95m Weight empty 1,625kg total 2,500kg Engines 2x 240hp Maximum speed 320km/h
Source: Trait d'Union #217 Sep-Oct 2004
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 10:33:15 am by Stargazer2006 »

Offline James

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2011, 09:05:58 am »
Very interesting Tophe. I would love to read a bit more about that turbojet flying boat mentioned above. Would the position of the lift jets be practical?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 09:07:33 am by James »

Offline Tophe

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2011, 11:00:30 am »
(The search does not find this)
(source: Trait d'Union #194 Nov-Dec 2000)
As well:
A. Dujardin designed during WW2 a giant flying boat of 250t with turbojets (4 for lift and 4 for speed). Length 127m Span 106m.
I add the engines drawings. And I gave one line summary from 19 lines detail. I could translate more, but it is very technical, and I lack English vocabulary. I try.
"For speed, blades had 4.5m diameter and hubs: 3m. Blades were driven by a turbo motor located in the hub and working like a steam turbine but with air at pressure 12kg and 500°C. This air is provided by an engine room located in the hull. These propellers are adjustable around the vertival axis.
In the wings depth, were lift propellers of 10m diameter for take off, so it was able to take off from land. All this mechanical engine parts were weighing 60t, with a power of 140,000hp! Range 10,000km in 24 hours.
A reduced size model had been tested in 1937, as a 2.66m span model that was an air tubine with wings and a boom holding a tail. These tests were performed at Issy les Moulineaux in the Etablissements d'Etudes Techniques du Ministère de l'Air. The full-size air-jet project was not built."
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 11:06:13 am by Tophe »

Online hesham

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2012, 04:13:51 am »
Hi,

my dear Maveric spoke before about some French projects from WW1,and I
found an info for two of them,first,the Bassan-Gue BN.4,it was triplane
bomber project powered by three 450 hp Renault engines,and the second,
the Bille SACANA triplane bomber project,which was studied in three versions,
projects are provided with six (400 hp Lorraine or 400 hp Liberty) engines,and
the third one was a heavy bomber equipped by 700 hp SANA engines.






« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 04:18:27 am by hesham »


Offline c460

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2012, 07:02:13 am »
What was those projects from Couse Pratique d-Aviation?.

Most probably these are not actual projects, but sketches illustrating various engine placements on 3 and 4-engine aircraft.

The book title means "Practical Aviation Course". The text on 3 and 4-engine aircraft reads: "Three-engine aircraft do not have this defect to the same degree ; the engines are usually distributed as two engines mounted on the side and one mounted on the aircraft axis. Four-engine aircraft are still rare. The most frequent type has the engines mounted by pairs on the same axis, one with the propeller at the front and the other with the propeller at the rear."

Online hesham

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2012, 07:11:54 am »
Thank you C460.

Online hesham

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2013, 02:14:03 pm »
Hi,


mysteries in that French George Messier's site,unknown projects;
http://www.acam.asso.fr/histo/premiers_equipements6.php

Morane-Saulnier MS-080
SNACSO E-3635
SNACSO SO.1060
Arsenal AEA 16800
LeO 40-C-30  (I know only C.41)
Wibault-Penhoet 700
Roussel 20
Schreck (FBA) 330
Levasseur PL-109
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 10:09:22 am by Stargazer2006 »

Offline toura

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2013, 11:08:15 am »
Hi Hesham
Here is the Roussel 20

Offline Maveric

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2013, 12:22:08 pm »
Wow toura, great!!!! :-*
I see you on the dark side of the moon.

Online hesham

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2013, 10:04:51 am »
Hi,


FBA.12 was a two seat trainer flying boat,but I don't know if it was
built or not.

Online hesham

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2013, 10:09:41 am »
Hi,


the Astra-Nieuport company designed a large twin boom biplane with a span
of 25.5m,propellers were mounted at the nose of each boom,driven either by
a single central engine or or one in each boom,unclear if that aircraft was
still a project or never completed,that was in 1915/1916,who know more ?.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 08:50:08 am by hesham »

Online hesham

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2013, 08:51:19 am »
Hi,


the Astra-Nieuport company designed a large twin boom biplane with a span
of 25.5m,propellers were mounted at the nose of each boom,driven either by
a single central engine or or one in each boom,unclear if that aircraft was
still a project or never completed,that was in 1915/1916,who know more ?.


A small mistake,


the company was Astra and not Astra-Nieuport.

Online hesham

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2013, 10:04:26 am »
Hi,


the Astra-Nieuport company designed a large twin boom biplane with a span
of 25.5m,propellers were mounted at the nose of each boom,driven either by
a single central engine or or one in each boom,unclear if that aircraft was
still a project or never completed,that was in 1915/1916,who know more ?.


A small mistake,


the company was Astra and not Astra-Nieuport.


And here is the Astra twin boom aircraft

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2013, 05:31:13 am »
The Joubert J 3, which bears more than a passing resemblance to the Mignet HM.8 but, equally, differs in significant respects. Maybe its design was influenced by the HM.8. Maybe it was constructed using HM.8 components. Maybe it was converted from an HM.8. So far I've found next to no information about it. Does anyone have any?

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2013, 05:35:36 am »
With apologies for the picture quality - they are scans of contemporary newspaper photographs - here are two of the 50 CV Peitz Avionette. Does anyone have any better images of or information about this obscure little French aeroplane?

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2013, 05:42:00 am »
..........and now two equally poor images of the Volland V.10, a French two seat training biplane of the 1930s. However the stagger of the wings is such that if not for the struts, maybe it could be described as a tandem mainplane low/parasol wing monoplane! I think that I have slightly better versions of these photographs somewhere, but I can't find them at present. If I do and I can find them, I'll post them subsequently.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2013, 05:47:01 am »
......and finally - for the present - the Botali-Mandelli biplane. I have a little information about this diminutive single seater, including the name of the gentlemen standing proudly before it. I think that he is either the eponymous M. Botali or M. Mandelli, its designer and pilot. I'll try to find that information and post it. But as before, if anyone has better pictures or more information about this aeroplane, I'll be most interested.

Online hesham

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2013, 05:54:18 am »
Great find Avion,


and here is the only info from Trait d'Union.

Online hesham

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2013, 06:03:55 am »
......and finally - for the present - the Botali-Mandelli biplane. I have a little information about this diminutive single seater, including the name of the gentlemen standing proudly before it. I think that he is either the eponymous M. Botali or M. Mandelli, its designer and pilot. I'll try to find that information and post it. But as before, if anyone has better pictures or more information about this aeroplane, I'll be most interested.


Hi Avion,


for Botali-Mandelli biplane,there is a more info about it in Trait d'Union issue 224,they also
designed aircraft called PAMA and some light aircraft.

Offline toura

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2013, 07:44:24 am »
bonjour Avions anciens
From an old "Les ailes" 1946

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2013, 08:01:43 am »
Thank you, hesham and toura. The clips from Les Ailes are most interesting. From the fact that they came from a 1946 issue and the way the text is phrased, it seems that the V.10 must have survived the war. I wonder what became of it subsequently?

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2013, 08:03:33 am »
From an old "Aviation Française"

Offline toura

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2013, 08:11:37 am »
always old paper..."aviation magazine"

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2013, 08:32:30 am »
More on the Duverne-Saran bimoteur from, I think, an issue of l'Aéro dating from the 1930s.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2013, 08:35:45 am »
More on the Volland V.10 from l'Aéro of 29 May 1936.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2013, 08:51:21 am »
Ah, I've now found the article, which appeared in l'Avion (date unknown), from which the earlier photographs of the Peitz Avionette came.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2013, 08:53:36 am »
Another obscure French aeroplane from the 1930s, this time the Peyret-Nessler parasol wing monoplane.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2013, 10:25:13 am »
Great work my dears Avion and Toura.

Offline c460

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2013, 03:47:33 am »
......and finally - for the present - the Botali-Mandelli biplane. I have a little information about this diminutive single seater, including the name of the gentlemen standing proudly before it. I think that he is either the eponymous M. Botali or M. Mandelli, its designer and pilot.

There was a Botali 350hp long-distance aircraft with diesel engine, answering the same program as the Bernard 86 and Wibault 368. The aircraft was never completed. (Source: Records français de distance by Jean Liron.)
I have never seen a picture or drawing of this aircraft, additional info is welcome.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2013, 05:23:05 pm »
Hi,


here is the Guillemin JG.40,JG.41 and JG.42 drawings.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2014, 08:57:01 am »
From Avions No. 127, a little-known prototype identified as the "Fellot Lacour" [F-PJCV], christened "L'ancêtre" (the ancestor), though the spelling is apparently unsure.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2014, 08:58:02 am »
Also from Avions No. 127, the n°01 (and probably sole example) René Lemaire I [F-PPPN].

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2014, 09:40:10 am »
Apparently the Lemaire 01 (F-PPPN) is held in the reserve collection of Espace Air Passion at Angers-Marcé (see http://www.musee-aviation-angers.fr/collections/avions-et-voilures-tournantes/). I'll try to remember to enquire about it when next I'm there. In the meantime, here are some clearer pictures of it.




« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 09:47:03 am by avion ancien »

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2014, 10:28:12 am »
Splendid pics! Thanks a bunch for sharing!

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2014, 10:30:13 am »
is the Guillemin JG.40,JG.41 and JG.42 drawings.

A beautiful photo of the Guillemin JG.40:

Offline cluttonfred

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2014, 10:57:56 am »
always old paper..."aviation magazine"

It's been a while since this post, I admit, but it's neat that this old design is exactly within the current French microlight limit of 300kg gross weight.
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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2014, 11:05:23 am »
Apparently the Lemaire 01 (F-PPPN) is held in the reserve collection of Espace Air Passion at Angers-Marcé (see http://www.musee-aviation-angers.fr/collections/avions-et-voilures-tournantes/). I'll try to remember to enquire about it when next I'm there. In the meantime, here are some clearer pictures of it.

Absolutely fantastic pics and that link is worth following.  I have never seen a museum with such an interesting collection of unusual and homebuilt light planes.  You could make a book of oddball configurations and prototypes just from that one collection.  I've have to make a point to get over there next summer.
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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2014, 10:48:20 am »
Drawing of the Richard-Penhoët 2, from the Spanish magazine Aérea, April 1924.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2014, 04:31:42 am »
Still in this Trait d'Union #217 is the wonderful tandem-wing Lachassagne family and also:
"Jacques Lagarde designed in 1936 with Richard a project of transoceanic airplane with 'controlled lift'. The wing featured (uneasy to translate!) 'des volets de courbure commandés par des girouettes Constantin' controlling Cz in flight. Span 62m Length 40m Total weight 105t with 15t load Power 15,600hp total Max speed 440km/h Range 8000km. The same Lagarde designed the Millet-Lagarde ML.10 twin-boomer after 1945."


And here is from Aerophile magazine.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2014, 05:44:59 am »
Hi C 460
From "aviation magazine

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2014, 11:44:41 am »
Hi C 460
From "aviation magazine
Thanks Toura!
Do you have all those Avimags?
Adrien

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #62 on: January 28, 2014, 12:40:38 pm »
For readers that don't speak French, the subtitle says it all.

Courte histoire d'un "veau-marin"

"Veau" literally means calf (from which we get the English word veal) but when applied to a vehicle it means something gutless and without power, so "veau-marin" means "sea calf" and may be a pun on "sous-marin" or submarine.  It is also reminiscent of "vache de mer" or "sea cow" (manatee) also probably not the name you'd choose for a new flying boat.
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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #63 on: January 28, 2014, 12:50:36 pm »
"Veau" literally means calf (from which we get the English word veal) but when applied to a vehicle it means something gutless and without power, so "veau-marin" means "sea calf" and may be a pun on "sous-marin" or submarine.  It is also reminiscent of "vache de mer" or "sea cow" (manatee) also probably not the name you'd choose for a new flying boat.


Absolutely, Matthew! And allow me to translate the header, which gives a little more background to this being a "sea calf"...


"In Europe during the 1920s, and especially in France, the commercial future of aviation seemed to be with flying boats. Ideas sprouted everywhere, and financiers followed it all very closely. The pathetic Saint-Raphaël competition of 1925 had hardly tempered even the wildest enthusiasm. Despite some big problems with motorisation, one kept building ever bigger and heavier machines, most often to the detriment of the most elementary aerodynamic features. The short history of the extremely rare RP.2 is a good example of this."

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #64 on: January 28, 2014, 03:28:30 pm »
Here is the 100-kilo tailless aircraft proposal by G.-C. Richard. I don't think this was actually built.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #65 on: January 28, 2014, 03:35:24 pm »
The Nicolas-Claude NC-111:

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« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 04:16:10 pm by hesham »

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #67 on: January 31, 2014, 08:13:44 am »
Hi,


here is the Salmson-Le Deville D4-S2 high-wing twin boom push-pull twin
engined light aircraft drawing from Ailes magazine;


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65546767/f11.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2014, 03:05:33 pm »
Hi,


the Marcel Herault was a little known French designer,he created one aircraft,it was
single seat parasol wing very light pusher monoplane,remained a project only.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65558960/f13.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #69 on: February 03, 2014, 05:09:13 am »
Hi,


here is the Roussel-10,a side-by-side two seat high-wing tourist light monoplane.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6555914g/f16.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #70 on: February 03, 2014, 05:41:22 am »
Hi,


from Les Ailes journal,the designer Pierre Bazoin created two aircraft projects,the
first was tourist aircraft with inverse "M" shape,and the second was a six-engined
huge transatlantic flying boat in a weird configuration.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6560495x/f7.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #71 on: February 03, 2014, 09:58:08 am »
Hi Hesham
I don't know the ROUSSEL 10. THANKS
and always from some old "aviation magazine"
the Roussel 20 and 40

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #72 on: February 03, 2014, 10:11:59 am »
One could imagine that if times were kinder, the Roussel 40 might have been developed into a fine little turbo jet powered executive aeroplane. Shades of the SIPA Minijet, perhaps?

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2014, 07:20:05 am »
Thank you my dear Toura,


and here is the Jarrion two seat light aircraft,intended to light aircraft contest
of 1936,remained a project only.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6560504f/f9.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #74 on: February 04, 2014, 07:27:12 am »
Hi,


also the Filleul box-wing pusher light aircraft project;


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65605157/f9.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #75 on: February 04, 2014, 07:32:50 am »
Hi Hasan
We continue with little know plane....
from "aviation magazine"

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #76 on: February 04, 2014, 07:34:52 am »
Excellent my dear Toura.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #77 on: February 04, 2014, 07:39:31 am »
THANKS AND.....one other

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #78 on: February 04, 2014, 07:40:20 am »
Hi,


from Les Ailes journal,the designer Pierre Bazoin created two aircraft projects,the
first was tourist aircraft with inverse "M" shape,and the second was a six-engined
huge transatlantic flying boat in a weird configuration.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6560495x/f7.image



With regards as to the transatlantic flying boat, was it intended as a WIG (Wing In Ground effect) design, do you think?
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #79 on: February 04, 2014, 07:53:02 am »
Hi Grey havoc

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks

and Sema 10 and 12


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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #80 on: February 04, 2014, 07:57:48 am »
Thank you my dear Toura,


and for Grey,I can't judge well,because the picture is not appear clearly the design,
but may be you are right .

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #81 on: February 04, 2014, 08:00:06 am »
one more

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #82 on: February 04, 2014, 01:32:26 pm »
Hi,


from Les Ailes journal,the designer Pierre Bazoin created two aircraft projects,the
first was tourist aircraft with inverse "M" shape,and the second was a six-engined
huge transatlantic flying boat in a weird configuration.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6560495x/f7.image


From my dear Tophe,


here is a patent for Bazoin aircraft,and its variants.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #83 on: February 04, 2014, 09:23:59 pm »
Toura, do you have a year for the hydravion à coque monoplan Vinay, please?


One wonders how this thing could alight on water without nosediving

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #84 on: February 05, 2014, 04:49:47 am »
Hi,

here is two aircraft in very weird configurations.

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65552283/f5.image
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 01:58:49 pm by Stargazer »

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #85 on: February 05, 2014, 05:09:41 am »
Hi Dan_inbox
Sorry ! I've nothing more !!!

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #86 on: February 05, 2014, 10:45:32 am »
Anyone know how many Salmson Moineau S.M.1 were completed? Sources vary between a couple of prototypes and all 155 ordered. Some sources even have them in operational use as night bombers in 1918!

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #87 on: February 06, 2014, 04:26:28 am »
Hi,


here is the Gaucher Week-End,a two seat high wing light aircraft;


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6553888t/f11.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #88 on: February 06, 2014, 01:44:56 pm »
Hi,

here is two aircraft in very weird configurations.

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65552283/f5.image

Actually, the text makes it clear that the illustration is the same aircraft in plan view and profile, a concept for a light aircraft inspired by the classic paper dart.  There are additional horizontal control surfaces forward for "added stability" though I am not sure why that was though necessary.  Here is the whole clipping for anyone who can read (or muddle through) French as the source is in the public domain.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #89 on: February 06, 2014, 01:46:41 pm »
here is the Gaucher Week-End,a two seat high wing light aircraft;


The Gaucher Week-End later became the Payen Pa.47 Week-End / Aeria...

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2014, 04:16:17 am »
Hi,


here is a little known French aircraft projects,the Antares by Jean Angeli and
the Delma by Delambre et Maingon;


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6576024m/f5.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2014, 05:14:35 am »
I moved the Barbaro types to the appropriate topic.

Please always make sure that a dedicated topic doesn't exist before posting to these generic threads, which only exist as a temporary place for lack of more information. When a manufacturer or a type is sufficiently documented it gets its own page, and we already have a Barbaro page in the "Aerospace" section:


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12377.0/all.html

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #92 on: February 07, 2014, 02:05:18 pm »
Drawing of the Richard-Penhoët 2, from the Spanish magazine Aérea, April 1924.


Great find my dear C460,and that drawing differed from the aircraft actually built.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #93 on: February 08, 2014, 04:30:32 am »
More on the Duverne-Saran bimoteur from, I think, an issue of l'Aéro dating from the 1930s.


My dear Avion,


here is anther article from Les Ailes journal.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6553900t/f3.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #94 on: February 08, 2014, 05:22:00 am »
Hi,


I found an article about Diesel engines and a strange aircraft,created by Rexovice
et Botali,but in Trait d'Union magazine,they wrote it as; Botali-Rexonice,it was a
record breaker aircraft,I don't know the right,Rexovice or Rexonice ?.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6553911m/f5.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #95 on: February 08, 2014, 02:44:22 pm »
... I don't know the right,Rexovice or Rexonice ?.

Yes, it was Botali and Rexovice. Seen as Rexovice-Botali here: http://www.aeroteca.com/motoraz/indexaz.pdf

Does anyone know who these guys were? I'm assuming the latter was pilot André Rexovice (seen as 'A. Rescovice' here: http://aviateur-pharabod.monsite-orange.fr/page5/index.html ) But who was Botali?


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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #96 on: February 08, 2014, 04:08:59 pm »
Thank you my dear Apophenia,


and no more info about Botali on Internet.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #97 on: February 09, 2014, 09:25:46 am »
Anyone know how many Salmson Moineau S.M.1 were completed? Sources vary between a couple of prototypes and all 155 ordered. Some sources even have them in operational use as night bombers in 1918!
A bit late answering this. According to 'French Aircraft of World War One' by Davilla & Soltan, at least 155 aircraft were built.
Quote
At least one machine, belonging to  AR 289, was still in use in 1918. This S.M.1 flew reconnaissance in support of the 66e Division des Chasseurs a Pied until late 1918.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #98 on: February 09, 2014, 03:59:17 pm »
and no more info about Botali on Internet.

One possible connection is the Botali-du Riveau PAMA type 1 motoplaneur
http://www.aviafrance.com/botali-du-riveau-p-a-m-a-type-1-aviation-france-10222.htm

And there was a M. Botalli (two Ls) who seems to have been an aeronautical engineer.

http://archive.org/stream/la02b9eronautiqu04pari/la02b9eronautiqu04pari_djvu.txt
L'Aeronautique 132 and 166 - Here Botalli is associated with the engineering of a monoplane tourer designed by Baron Edmond de Marçay (with a long-term association between Botalli and de Marçay implied). There is also mention of a Botalli radiator design for the Hanriot H-26.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #99 on: February 09, 2014, 04:07:10 pm »
Thank you my dear Apophenia.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #100 on: February 10, 2014, 04:56:14 am »
Hi,


here is the Deckert et Desbenoit three seat high-wing pusher amphibian
project,which was powered by a car motor,all details are here;


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65546997/f8.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #101 on: February 10, 2014, 12:44:42 pm »
It's hard at times to tell which designs were actual projects and which were merely hypothetical...

Here is an illustration for Jacques Lacasse's 1948 Technique de l'air. It shows a very interesting blended-wing project (I'm posting it here as I believe it is earlier than the publication of the book, but I could be wrong — I do not own the book myself).

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #102 on: February 12, 2014, 06:07:09 am »
One of the delights of the pre-war issues of les Ailes is that the editor would feature what we now regard as flights of fancy, however improbable and fantastic they might have seemed at the time. But it must be conceded that this remark is an ex post facto judgment - and with the benefit of hindsight, it's very easy to make such a remark. What must be remembered is that in the twenties and thirties - particularly in France - aviation technology was advancing by leaps and bounds, almost on a daily basis, and it is was a time when almost anything seemed possible. Thus what might seem fantastical one day could be the norm the next. I'm sure that there once was a time, in the not too far distant past, when the concept of jet engines, supersonic speed, aeroplanes capable of carrying 850 passengers, space travel and the like would have been considered fantastical - and when any publication carrying articles by those propounding these ideas might have been decried. Today's projects sometimes become tomorrow's reality! 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 06:10:22 am by avion ancien »

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #103 on: February 13, 2014, 04:40:06 am »
Hi,


the S. Poite Type-3 was a low-wing two-seat light tourist aircraft,powered by
one 95 hp Renault engine.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6555780s/f3.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #104 on: February 13, 2014, 05:13:52 am »
Hi,


here is the Maurice Brion fighter,it was a single seat fighter biplane,and put the
upper wing behind the cockpit to make a good vision for the pilot,the aircraft
mention in Les Ailes journal and in Trait d'Union magazine also,may be intended
for 1930 C.1 contest,we know about 31 to 32 entries competed in this competition,
many of them remained a drawing board only.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65537145/f6.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #105 on: February 14, 2014, 04:51:54 am »
Hi,


here is a little known French aircraft projects,the Antares by Jean Angeli and
the Delma by Delambre et Maingon;


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6576024m/f5.image


Hi,


the first designer,Jean Angeli had created a parabolic-wing very light aircraft,with
fixed u/a landing gear and single aircraft,powered by one 12 hp Rhone engine,
mention also in Trait d'Union magazine;


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65546322/f13.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #106 on: February 15, 2014, 07:32:19 am »
Hi,


here is the Leyat L-19 light aircraft,that designer created many gliders and light
aircraft.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6568382f/f4.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #107 on: February 16, 2014, 03:29:53 am »
Hi,


here is the Jean Pajot light aircraft.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6568275z/f4.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #108 on: February 16, 2014, 09:07:28 am »
Thanks, hesham.  One comment...it would be useful to include the year of publication for some of these to give an idea of the context.  Cheers, Matthew
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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #109 on: February 18, 2014, 12:38:23 pm »
Renaudeau light aircraft, from Les Ailes 7 Dec. 1939.
Adrien

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #110 on: February 18, 2014, 12:39:50 pm »
Hennion light aircraft, from Les Ailes 28 Dec. 1939 and 1 Feb. 1940.
Adrien

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #111 on: February 18, 2014, 01:44:51 pm »
A french designer, but built in Marokko...
I see you on the dark side of the moon.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #112 on: February 18, 2014, 09:46:26 pm »
A french designer, but built in Marokko...

Good clue ! That could mean, that it principally was a Spanish design, as Morocco was
divided into a Spanish and a French protectorate then. It seems more probable to me,
that Emile Hennion was working in the French part, nevertheless it's not certain, of course.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #113 on: February 19, 2014, 02:50:46 am »
Thanks, hesham.  One comment...it would be useful to include the year of publication for some of these to give an idea of the context.  Cheers, Matthew


Thank you my dear Cluttonfred,


and here is a strange glider design from Mr. Chapeaux,I know he created a glider
and many aircraft,and this glider was built with Mr. Briens.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65682645/f2.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #114 on: February 19, 2014, 03:34:58 am »
Hi,


here is the Astra two seat recce and trainer biplane;


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6568240r/f2.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #115 on: February 19, 2014, 04:32:09 am »
Hi,


as discovered by my dear Apophenia,the Louis Peyret designed a light seaplane
trainer biplane in 1924,powered at first by one 16 hp 4-cyl Sergant and replaced
by 45 hp Anzani 6 engine.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6556110c/f2.image
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 04:30:57 pm by hesham »

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #116 on: February 19, 2014, 04:48:24 am »
A french designer, but built in Marokko...

Good clue ! That could mean, that it principally was a Spanish design, as Morocco was
divided into a Spanish and a French protectorate then. It seems more probable to me,
that Emile Hennion was working in the French part, nevertheless it's not certain, of course.

Émile Hennion was working in Casablanca, in the French protectorate.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #117 on: February 19, 2014, 05:33:35 am »
Thank you very much,
 
then I think, we can accept it as a French design !  ;)
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #118 on: February 19, 2014, 05:44:11 am »
Hi,


it was Hennion Type 11,mention in Trait d'Union magazine as a French aircraft.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #119 on: February 19, 2014, 08:12:25 am »
Hi,


here is the Jean Simon unknown helicopter project,there's no sign for this design
on Internet.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65560687/f2.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #120 on: February 19, 2014, 08:36:50 am »
Interesting find, hesham !
Perhaps one of our native french speakers could help here : The design reminds me to
Gerald Herricks Convertaplanes ( http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19837.msg202197.html#msg202197)
and in the text I found "..l'immobilisation en vol", which I would translate as "fixed during flight".
And the 3-view somehow suggests, too, that during cruising flight the rotor should be stopped
and work as a fixed wing.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #121 on: February 19, 2014, 01:44:34 pm »
Thank you my dear Jemiba.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #122 on: February 21, 2014, 05:37:29 am »
Hi,


here is a strange concept for Leyat designer;


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6556091g/f2.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #123 on: February 21, 2014, 07:43:09 am »
Hi,


here is a strange ideas from L'Aerophile February 1937,from Santos Dumont,Antoinette
and Bleriot.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #124 on: February 22, 2014, 04:02:35 am »
Hi,


here is the Carmier T-10 light aircraft.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6556104n/f2.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #125 on: February 22, 2014, 05:31:16 am »
Hi,


here is a strange seaplane design,created by Chantiere Europeens de Constructions
Aeronautiques or C.E.C.A,and I don't know what was its motor,a jet engine ?.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65559918/f2.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #126 on: February 22, 2014, 01:31:29 pm »
Hi,


here is a strange seaplane design,created by Chantiere Europeens de Constructions
Aeronautiques or C.E.C.A,and I don't know what was its motor,a jet engine ?.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65559918/f2.image


Was this engine working by compressed air,I can't translate well the French language.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #127 on: February 22, 2014, 11:03:54 pm »
Hi,


here is the Astra two seat recce and trainer biplane;


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6568240r/f2.image
I magnified the whole page from the link in order to read the whole text. Now, my primary school French is rusty, but I'm certain the text says that the aircraft in those two pictures is an new design from Astra company located in Arad.
This link (http://aviatia.cda.ro/15years.htm) about history of pre WW2 romanian aircraft manufacturing says that there was an aircraft maker in Arad named Astra. Most of the pictures are missing, but the one which link still remains looks a lot like our mystery aircraft, they named it S.E.T. 7. Seems that there were small variations between various S.E.T. 3-7 models.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #128 on: February 22, 2014, 11:14:48 pm »
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65559918/f2.image

Was this engine working by compressed air,I can't translate well the French language.
The text says "à réaction directe ... avec 5 tuyères" which would be a 5-exhaust jet engine. It also mentions an auxilliary Diesel engine for maneuvering an electricity generation.
1922 is a little early for jet engines, ain't it?  The description  resembles an early ramjet or statojet.


Heavy-lifter long-range, jet propelled, pressurized and made out of "néocellulose?  quite the  visionaries!

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #129 on: February 23, 2014, 02:29:18 am »
If it should prove that the 'Astra two seat recce and trainer biplane' is, in fact, Romanian in origin, perhaps it's a matter of concern that it should be held out as being French in origin, in that it has been posted as a little-known French project or prototype. The fact that a picture and/or drawing and/or description of an aircraft appears in a French aviation journal doesn't mean that the aircraft is French. Les Ailes and its contemporaries were very cosmopolitan in their approach and featured many aircraft, from Europe and the wider world, on their pages. Thus I do feel that every attempt should be made to ascertain, by cross referencing insofar as is possible, that a hitherto unknown - at least to the participants to this forum - aircraft is, in fact, French - in design or manufacture - before giving it such an attribution by posting it on this thread. The risk from this is that, ultimately, the aircraft may come to be accepted as French, simply by its presence in this thread, when it has done no more than appear in a French aviation journal. That way history is misrepresented. Perhaps, unless there is clear evidence that an aircraft is French, in design or manufacture, it should be described as a little-known project or prototype that may have been designed and/or manufactured in France.

By way of corollary, I also have some concerns about describing the Hennion as a French aircraft when, it appears, it was designed and manufactured in Morocco. M Hennion may have been French and he may have designed and built his aeroplane in French Morocco. But does that make it French? If a British citizen designed and built an aeroplane in India before WW2, is that a British aircraft? I think that most people would consider it to be an Indian aircraft. If it's otherwise, someone had better undertake a significant rewriting of A.J.Jackson's British Civil Aircraft!   

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #130 on: February 23, 2014, 04:18:14 am »
Thank you Dan and Avion.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #131 on: February 23, 2014, 04:31:04 am »
Hi,


here is the Chassaing-Dorand biplane ambulance aircraft project;


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65682660/f5.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #132 on: February 23, 2014, 10:25:00 am »
Attached is the whole of the report from les Ailes of 1 February 1940 concerning the Hennion monoplane. If one looks at the opening sentence of the second paragraph, where the place of construction should appear, irritatingly one finds the word 'censuré'. Thus maybe I was too swift in judging this aeroplane as Moroccan rather than French (but perhaps Maveric can identify the source of his information that it was constructed in Morocco). However I do not resile from the general principle of my argument, namely that it is preferable to attribute an aircraft designed and/or built in a country under colonial rule to the geographical country rather than to the foreign power that rules it at that time. Otherwise all aircraft designed and/or constructed before August 1947 in what is now India, Pakistan and Bangladesh will have to be called British!   
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 10:28:43 am by avion ancien »

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #133 on: February 23, 2014, 11:35:36 am »
Hi avion_ancien,

The Hennion also appears in Les Ailes 28/12/1939, where the town name Casablanca is not censored:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6554721m/f5.image

By the way, Charles Claveau includes Hennion (who made no other aircraft) among French aircraft manufacturers in Trait d'Union no.215. But I agree that the attribution is borderline.

Adrien

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #134 on: February 23, 2014, 12:15:05 pm »
Hi avion ancien,my source was the L+K, but I can´t say which issue. I believe 2013 or 2012...
I see you on the dark side of the moon.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #135 on: February 23, 2014, 01:06:33 pm »
I'd have to be braver than I am to contradict M Claveau!

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #136 on: February 24, 2014, 07:10:42 am »

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #137 on: February 25, 2014, 04:24:38 am »
Hi,

The little known Lucien Chauviere Gyroptere of 1927,which powered by one
230 hp Renault engine.


Here is a strange drawing to Chauviere autogyro aircraft.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6568235f.image

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #138 on: March 03, 2014, 04:21:47 am »
Hi,


here is the Lachassagne AL-1 of 1912 and AL-2 of 1923 light tandem wing
aircraft,he complete his series up to AL-7.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6554755d/f13.image.r=l%27a%C3%A9rophile.langFR

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #139 on: March 03, 2014, 06:07:58 am »
Here's a photograph of the AL.1 of 1912 (from l'Aérophile, May 1935). Both the three view drawing and the photograph of the model, posted by Hesham, are of the AL.2 of 1923.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 06:09:34 am by avion ancien »

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #140 on: March 03, 2014, 06:52:16 am »
Thank you Avion,


I knew that the AL-1 was appeared in 1912 and AL-2 appeared in 1923.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #141 on: March 04, 2014, 07:55:51 am »
In the Trait d’Union #138, this is a mystery.
After the very classical Kellner-Bechereau E60 trainer (1st flight March 1940) is another 3-view drawing of twin-pusher with a weird wing. Nothing in the text there explains what this is. The only explanation I found could be a text 3 pages before in the introduction: "Béchereau designed a glider with a weird shape, a double crescent wing for a fighter project. From this glider project, Béchereau designed a motor-glider with two 7hp engines and the first drawer wing". The date seems between 1932 and 1936.


And here is the Bechereau glider and motor -glider strange concept of wing,from
L'Aerophile;


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65536639/f16.image.r=l%27a%C3%A9rophile.langFR

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #142 on: April 02, 2014, 09:10:43 am »
Hi,


the French designer Paul Schmitt built his first aircraft in 1910,after that came a long
series of aircraft and projects,began with P.S.1 up to P.S.14,I know that he after the
WW1 created an experimental aircraft,may be a seaplane,old source on Internet called
it,the Type 194,has anyone a more info about it ?.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #143 on: April 03, 2014, 05:55:20 am »

the French designer Paul Schmitt built his first aircraft in 1910,after that came a long
series of aircraft and projects,began with P.S.1 up to P.S.14,I know that he after the
WW1 created an experimental aircraft,may be a seaplane,old source on Internet called
it,the Type 194,has anyone a more info about it ?.


By the way,


this Schmitt experimental aircraft mention in the Trait d'Union magazine index.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #144 on: April 10, 2014, 01:02:26 pm »
Hennion light aircraft, from Les Ailes 28 Dec. 1939 and 1 Feb. 1940.
Adrien

There's more on the history of the Hennion to be found at http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?128197-The-even-newer-%282014%29-Wot-plane-Quiz-Thread-Rules-In-Post-1&p=2129543#post2129543 (q.v. post #268).

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #145 on: May 24, 2014, 05:31:11 am »
Hi,


We know the designer Bechereau and his company SRAP,which created the T.7 light transport
aircraft;
http://www.aviafrance.com/s-r-a-p-t-7-aviation-france-9048.htm


The company also designed the SRAP T.11,a twin engined derivative aircraft project,and
could accommodated 11 passenger,power by two 230 hp Salmson 9 Ab engines.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #146 on: July 03, 2014, 05:20:13 am »
From Aerophile 1917;


consider a strange idea from the aviator Guynemer.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #147 on: July 03, 2014, 08:17:40 am »
No, it was not 1st April... It reminds me of this crazy German project for "Punktlandung":
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2733.msg152468.html#msg152468


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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #148 on: July 03, 2014, 09:07:31 am »
No, it was not 1st April... It reminds me of this crazy German project for "Punktlandung":
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2733.msg152468.html#msg152468


May be only a dream my dear Adrien.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #149 on: July 03, 2014, 10:30:12 am »
I wouldn't take the sketch too literally, it't just the visualisation of a idea. And that idea
maybe wasn't that crazy, as speeds still were relatively low back then and the jolt of an
emergency landing could well have been damped to acceptable levels for the pilot with a
mechanical damping system. Principally the crush-collapsible zone of nowadasy cars does
nothing else.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #150 on: July 04, 2014, 03:10:07 am »
This was not a suggestion by Guynemer, but by Lorin!

Please try not to assert things if you're not sure. The article makes it pretty clear.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #151 on: October 13, 2014, 08:30:40 am »
From l'Aeronautique journal,


here is the Robert Ferber XI very light biplane powered by one 7 hp engine driven
two propellers,he was the son of Ferdinand Ferber.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #152 on: October 14, 2014, 02:25:32 am »
Neat, and considering the engine had a 1.1 litre and made those seven horsepower at only 1500 rpm, I bet those were more robust horses than we are used to in today's high-revving little engines. Do you have a date for the source?
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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #153 on: October 14, 2014, 04:36:47 am »
Neat, and considering the engine had a 1.1 litre and made those seven horsepower at only 1500 rpm, I bet those were more robust horses than we are used to in today's high-revving little engines. Do you have a date for the source?


Yes my dear Cluttonfred,


it is l'Aeronautique August 1923.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #154 on: October 20, 2014, 05:36:22 am »
In l'Aeronautique 1929,


here is a new idea by that time to fight against fire,but I am carious about the flying boat drawing,
was it just a hypothetical aircraft or real one ?,when I used the Google translate for the text,I found
that;



The fight against the fire on aircraft C. F. P. Wes. made an edit on this plate
M.H. Brunat, head of the Central Security Service at Air Ministry. The illustrations were executed by
our technical designer J. Gaudefroy. We publish below, a few sketches, taken from the most suggestive,
This clear and well-ordered that the C.F.P. Aé study.send on demand, and is an extremely codification
interesting simple rules whose application significantly reduce the risk of fire.



« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 05:40:50 am by hesham »

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #155 on: October 21, 2014, 08:48:39 am »
From l'Aeronautique 1930 and TU 198 magazine;


here is the L.E. Elie patent for delta mid-wing aircraft with a pusher engine.




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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #156 on: October 21, 2014, 03:31:41 pm »
Very interesting plane. Thanks Hesham  :)

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #157 on: October 21, 2014, 04:17:46 pm »
Thank you my dear Deltafan.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #158 on: October 22, 2014, 05:22:43 am »
Hi,


of course we know R. Pateras Pescara,one of early pioneer for helicopter,here is a patent
for new helicopter design.


l'Aeronautique 1932.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #159 on: October 25, 2014, 06:02:12 am »
From l'Aeronautique 1933,


the French designer Alfred Auger created some gliders during 1920s,he had a
patent for tailless aircraft,fitted with new control for flaps.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #160 on: November 01, 2014, 05:16:54 am »
From l'Aeronautique 12/1937,


the designer Joseph Touya created a single seat low-wing tourist aircraft project,
all details are in the picture,it is not mentioned in TU magazine.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #161 on: November 04, 2014, 07:07:54 am »
From l'Aeronautique 12/1938,


here is the SFCA Lignel 10,20 & 30 three view drawings.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #162 on: November 05, 2014, 04:05:44 am »
From l'Aeronautique 1939,


here is an info about Guillemin JG.60.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #163 on: November 05, 2014, 04:57:11 am »
Very nice... Thanks for sharing! (and please, DON'T thank me for thanking you...).

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #164 on: November 05, 2014, 05:22:19 am »
From l'Aeronautique 1939,
here is an info about Guillemin JG.60.

Thanks, hesham, but the article you posted is incomplete.  The complete article with many construction details from the magazine l'Aéronautique, No. 276, November 1939, pp 431-437 is available courtesy of the Gallica Bibliothèque Numérique (French National Library online digital archives):  http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6554255p/f25.image.langFR  There is lots of great stuff in there, I am going to have to spend some time looking around.  I tried posting the actual .pdf of the article (reproduction permitted for non-commercial use with acknowledgement of the source) but it must be too big.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 05:51:20 am by cluttonfred »
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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #165 on: November 05, 2014, 07:06:15 am »
Here is the entire article in enhanced format:

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #166 on: November 07, 2014, 05:07:52 am »
Hi,


the Guillemin JG.50 was two-seat twin engined light tourist aircraft project,powered
by two 40 hp Mengin 2A-01 engines.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #167 on: November 09, 2014, 12:14:26 pm »
the Guillemin JG.50 was

"PROBABLY." The text makes it clear that the designations JG 50 and JG 60 have not been confirmed.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #168 on: February 08, 2015, 04:26:04 am »
Sema 10 and 12

In this extract posted by Toura from Aviation Magazine, the picture captioned as Sema 12 actually shows the Belgian trainer LACAB T.7 registered OO-ANL. There was a mistake in the caption, as discussed here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,22526.msg241810.html#msg241810

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #169 on: February 08, 2015, 08:50:17 am »
Hi C460

You are right !!!My document is an erronous one !
THE PHOTO is a bad one
THE 3 VIEWS is a good one

            ??????????????
Bye  PAUL

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #170 on: February 16, 2015, 08:53:18 am »

mysteries in that French George Messier's site,unknown projects;
http://www.acam.asso.fr/histo/premiers_equipements6.php

Schreck (FBA) 330



Hi,


everyday,I discover the George Messier site is right,and I think all word in it is true,someone
told me that,when I sent this post,the FBA ended its series by the designation 310,so the 330
was not logical,and I answer him now and also all one suspected in this site,that the FBA company
never stopped at designation 310,but in 1937,and in Air Ministry A.49 competition for E.D.2,or
two seat trainer flying boat,the FBA submitted the Model-350 Project,and that's evidence for
existing of Model-330.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #171 on: March 26, 2015, 05:21:57 am »
Hi,


here is a Lachassagne aircraft drawing,but I don't know AL-? designation.


Flugsport 1925

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #172 on: May 01, 2015, 05:53:49 am »

here is the Jean Pajot light aircraft.

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6568275z/f4.image


Also from Le FANA 236,here is the Pajot gliders.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 05:55:34 am by hesham »

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #173 on: May 01, 2015, 08:25:49 am »
here is a Lachassagne aircraft drawing,but I don't know AL-? designation

I think that it is the AL-3 of 1925

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #174 on: May 01, 2015, 09:09:41 am »
Thank you my dear Avion.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #175 on: June 01, 2015, 04:21:58 pm »
Hi,


in 1928 competition for twin engined three/four seat recce torpedo bomber seaplane,
the company FBA submitted a proposal,remained a mystery to this moment,does anyone
know it ?.


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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #176 on: June 02, 2015, 09:45:32 am »
Old info from Internet;


the French Astra company designed a twin engined seaplane project after WW1,does
anyone know or hear about it ?.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #177 on: June 03, 2015, 05:08:43 am »
Hi,


I understand from this paragraph on TU magazine,that,Mr. Bechereau designer created
a fighter from Mignet Pou de Ciel,is that right ?.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #178 on: June 03, 2015, 05:32:39 am »
I understand from this paragraph on TU magazine,that,Mr. Bechereau designer created
a fighter from Mignet Pou de Ciel,is that right ?.

Not quite created "from" the Pou but rather inspired by the same general lines, yes.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #179 on: June 03, 2015, 05:50:34 am »
Thank you Skyblazer.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #180 on: June 03, 2015, 09:55:34 pm »
A fighter Pou du Ciel?  Now that I'd like to see!
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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #181 on: June 04, 2015, 01:57:54 am »
Are we talking about the Kellner-Béchereau E-60? I know of no Béchereau design that employed the Formule Mignet and I think it unlikely that he would do so. In terms of size, one might say that the Pou de Ciel could have 'inspired' the E-60 - but that does seem to stretch a point. Furthermore, the E-60 was a fighter trainer, rather than a fighter, and didn't fly until some five years after the date mentioned in the TU extract posted by Hesham.

It's certainly fair to say that after forming his company with Georges Kellner, Louis Béchereau designed and Kellner-Béchereau produced some rather unorthodox aeroplanes, such as the E-5 (q.v. http://www.the-blueprints.com/fr/blueprints/modernplanes/modern-jk/18389/view/kellner-bechereau_e-5/), and in a company document currently being offered for sale (q.v. http://www.priceminister.com/offer/buy/449283153/dossier-confidentiel-avions-kellner-bechereau-type-e-c-4-e1-de-kellner-bechereau.html) apparently there's mention of a type EC4 or C4E or CE4 (to none of which can I find any other reference). So whilst I know one should never say never, I remain rather sceptical about there having been - even if only on paper - a Béchereau Formule Mignet Chasseur.   

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #182 on: June 04, 2015, 04:42:13 am »
My dear Avion,


here is a more info about E.4 from TU magazine issue 138.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #183 on: June 04, 2015, 05:11:58 am »
Thank you, Hesham. The E.4 is relatively well known and it may be to this, in addition to the E.1, that the document for sale refers. But the document apparently refers to the second type, with which it deals, as the EC4/C4E/CE4. However this may be something of a 'red herring'. But I'm not prepared to fork out 99 € to find out!

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #184 on: June 04, 2015, 05:17:55 am »
OK my dear Avion,


and here is a small Info about EC.4 from A-Z magazine.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #185 on: June 04, 2015, 05:36:24 am »
Thank you, again, Hesham. However to get back to the point - having spent some time on this enjoyable tangent - there's still no evidence that Louis Béchereau did come up with a fighter aeroplane design that was inspired by the Pou de Ciel, which I would deduce to mean that it employed the Formule Mignet, beyond the oblique reference in TU.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #186 on: June 05, 2015, 01:51:44 pm »
Hi,


a French designer called Boutiron created a seaplane project in 1920s,does anyone
hear about it ?.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #187 on: June 06, 2015, 05:30:31 am »
Mignet connections aside, the spit-wing approach of the KB E-5 is intriguing. If anyone can point me to any contemporary articles, flight test reports or other info, I'd be very grateful.
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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #188 on: June 06, 2015, 05:51:21 am »
My dear Cluttonfred,


here is all I have about E-5 & ED-5.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #189 on: June 09, 2015, 05:28:21 am »
Hi,


the Guillemin JG.11 was derivative of JG.10 as a tourist aircraft,powered by one
120 hp Renault 4 Pdi engine.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 05:12:38 am by hesham »

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #190 on: June 09, 2015, 09:54:37 pm »
That's Guillemin with two Ls, Hesham.
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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #191 on: June 10, 2015, 04:32:56 am »
That's Guillemin with two Ls, Hesham

Exactly, and it makes quite a difference on the pronunciation, too, as the double "L" in such words is pronounced like the English "Y" ("baille" for instance is pronounced like "by" / "abeille" like "ah-bay" / "douillet" like "doo-yeah").

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #192 on: June 10, 2015, 06:03:49 am »
Fixed.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #193 on: June 20, 2015, 08:41:00 am »
Hi,


the French little known projects before WW1,the Alvaerz et de Conde,three aircraft;


1. Seaplane or flyingboat, model only.

2. An odd high-wing flyingboat with streamlined hull and pointed nose, fabricated from 2 layers of cedrat, a kind of lemon-wood, with fabric in between; the pilot was enclosed along with the engine which drove 2 pusher propellers set on the trailing edge. 4 windows provided him with a view, and small winglets provided stability on the water. The low-aspect-ratio wing was in 3 panels with large ailerons, and was supported on the struts based on special floats; it was entirely of metal construction without welding. The machine was tested around August 1913 at Bellevue on the Seine; the results are not known.  (Span: 12 m; chord: 2.2 m; wing area: 26.5 sqm, Eiffel No 8 airfoil; length: 8.4 m; winglet span: 5.7 m; 60 hp watercooled engine).   

3. Existed in proposal only: an all-steel 3-seater armored amphibian combat aircraft for the Navy. It featured an auxiliary 8 hp motor to power the radio, and to start the main engine.

http://flyingmachines.ru/Site2/Crafts/Craft29166.htm
« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 08:43:19 am by hesham »

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #194 on: August 15, 2015, 11:02:28 am »
From AFM 01 magazine,


who can ID this strange French aircraft as I think,there is two different pictures to it,maybe they are
the same but after modifications ?!.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 11:04:08 am by hesham »

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #195 on: August 15, 2015, 01:19:27 pm »
I think we've had it before on the forum.

It is the 1912 Bédélia.
Quote
The firm Bedelia (B + D + lia) founded by Bourbeau and Devaux was known for its small 2-seater automobiles known as voiturettes. Although reported to have been working on flying boats since 1908, their first and only design appeared first at the 1912 Salon de la Locomotion Aérienne. It was ambitious and unsuccessful, a small-span all-steel biplane with a short wide teardrop-shaped hull of rectangular section, on top of which was mounted the biplane cellule. The 2 wings were supported on 4 vertical struts, almost side-curtains, with interplane ailerons, Curtiss-style, mounted behind the outermost struts. The large tailplane was mounted on 2 similar struts, with the rudder between them. A 4-cylinder uncowled 50 hp Clerget sat next to the pilot in the hull, driving an overhead shaft which ran between the upper wing and the tailplane, with the pusher propeller just forward of the tailplane leading edge. On occasion the Bedelia appeared fitted with wheels and 2 long skids reaching far ahead of the hull.
  Bourbeau and Devaux founded a hydroplane center on the coast of Picardy, without much success; at the time, they modified the Bedelia with a tractor propeller, smaller struts without the side-curtains, twin tail-booms and twin rudders.
Text saved from the Flying Machines website.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #196 on: August 15, 2015, 01:37:32 pm »
Thanks Skyblazer...
...this was my question long time ago! ;)
I see you on the dark side of the moon.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #197 on: August 16, 2015, 04:25:46 am »
Thank you Skyblazer,


but as you see the second picture differs a little from the first one,maybe some modifications.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #198 on: August 16, 2015, 04:31:54 am »
From AFM 02,


here is anther unknown aircraft ?.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #199 on: October 13, 2015, 12:31:23 am »

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #200 on: January 20, 2016, 01:59:11 pm »
Lelièvre Monoplane 1912-13

The designer of this rather unusual aeroplane was one of the earliest French enthusiast pilots with a French Brevet number of 29. Lieutenant Eugene Lelièvre of the 5th Artillery Regiment conceived a monoplane that was built by Vendôme. A contemporary postcard records the first flight as 1 March 1913.

The pilot entered the aeroplane plane by means of a narrow side door opening.  The engine was installed very low and drove the large propeller placed higher up alongside the wing via a chain (see patent drawing attached).  The monoplane flew several times to Issy-les-Moulineaux in early 1913 and crashed a few months later, in the August.

Only the single example was built.

General characteristics

Engine:  50 h.p.
Wing Span: 9.5 m
Wing Area: 22 sq m

Sources:

   Pioniere der Fruhen Luftfahrt by Schmitt and Schwipps (Gondrom) ISBN 3-8112-1189-7

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #201 on: January 21, 2016, 12:24:52 am »
And in flight:

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #202 on: March 02, 2016, 05:19:30 am »
Hi,

this odd airplane was designed by Monsieur de Richmond,I don't know if it was a French
or not ?,page 31;

https://books.google.com.eg/books?id=6fb2w7clkfEC&printsec=frontcover&hl=ar&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #203 on: March 04, 2016, 06:46:11 am »
Hi,

this odd airplane was designed by Monsieur de Richmond,I don't know if it was a French
or not ?,page 31;

https://books.google.com.eg/books?id=6fb2w7clkfEC&printsec=frontcover&hl=ar&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Dumbo?

Martin
Would be marching to the beat of his own drum, if he didn't detest marching to any drumbeat at all so much.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #204 on: March 07, 2016, 04:29:13 am »

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #205 on: April 18, 2016, 07:04:27 am »
Hi,

does anyone hear about French helicopter,called Boneaux,maybe a Project ?,I don't
sure if the spelling is right or not ?.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #206 on: April 24, 2016, 08:59:45 am »
Hi,

the de Marcay Type-3 was a single-seat sesquiplane fighter with Hispano-Suiza 300hp engine,
apparently unfinished.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #207 on: April 30, 2016, 05:06:29 am »
Great project the Guillemin, incorporated flaps that little plane ...!

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #208 on: May 17, 2016, 10:22:24 am »
A Pescara project :

(page 19)

http://fr.calameo.com/read/0001240572ae5a05fb9e5

My dear Richard,

this Project mentioned in TU magazine.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #209 on: June 28, 2016, 01:59:57 am »
The Guillemin is a very interesting surprise for me, especially his wing with his "Flaps and Slaps" something very rarely seen in lighter and more planes in those years

« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 05:34:37 am by Motocar »

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #210 on: July 27, 2016, 09:27:44 am »
Hi,

from the book; Louis Blériot L' envol du XXe siècle - Blériot- Aéronautique ( SPAD - Blanchard -
Guillemin )
and in 1917 competition for multi engined BN.2 & BN.3,a two and three seat night bomber,
the tenders were;
Voisin XII,Letord 9,Bleriot 71 & 73,Farman 50,Caudron C-23 and CEP 2

What was CEP 2 ?,I search on the book; French Aircraft of the First World War,
but nothing I found.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #211 on: July 27, 2016, 04:46:51 pm »
Hi,

I presume it was this "Caproni built under licence Esnault Pelterie" : Caproni Esnault Pelterie 2.

http://www.traditions-air.fr/unit_en/avion/avions_ww1_01.htm

I understand that it was the name of the Caproni Ca.3 built in France (30) by Esnault Pelterie and the Société Anonyme d'Applications Industrielles du Bois (SAAIB) :

http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escadrille/Avions_Caproni.htm
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 04:56:29 pm by Deltafan »

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #212 on: July 28, 2016, 05:17:07 am »
Excellent my dear Deltafan,many thanks.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #213 on: September 08, 2016, 05:27:12 am »
Small Quiz,

what was this real French airplane (not Project) ?.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #214 on: September 10, 2016, 05:49:13 am »
Small Quiz,

what was this real French airplane (not Project) ?.

It was Lauret L'Ailette.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 05:52:36 am by hesham »

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #215 on: September 10, 2016, 06:28:02 am »
It does appear, Hesham, that all four of those illustrations came from my post on another forum (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?17-The-Ongoing-Mystery-Aircraft-Thread-Part-Deux/page452) and assuming that is where you found them, you might have had the courtesy to mention as much and give credit to the source! Oh and this aeroplane also was known as the Marais-Lauret Ailette.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #216 on: September 10, 2016, 07:31:53 am »
OK my dear Avions,

I just don't remember the source.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #217 on: September 10, 2016, 08:58:00 am »
THANKS AND.....one other
My dear Toura,

I think the magazine spelled the name of the designer wrong,it was Vinet.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #219 on: November 02, 2016, 07:45:30 am »
My dear Hesham
Another Vinet plane from "Aviation magazine"

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #220 on: November 02, 2016, 08:20:02 am »
Many thanks my dear Toura.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #221 on: November 02, 2016, 02:38:29 pm »
Another Vinet plane from "Aviation magazine"
FWIW, in my files this is named the "Vinet monoplan 1911 Type D."

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #222 on: November 04, 2016, 05:16:08 am »
Hi,

Jean Gras designed and built a gyrocopter,all details available is here;

http://www.avia-it.com/act/biblioteca/periodici/PDF%20Riviste/Ala%20d'Italia/L'ALA%20D'ITALIA%201925%20012.pdf

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #223 on: November 06, 2016, 07:31:51 am »
From Taschenbuch der Luftflotten 1915;

here is a Colliex-Janson experimental seaplane of 1914.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #224 on: November 06, 2016, 11:21:46 am »
Another Vinet plane from "Aviation magazine"
FWIW, in my files this is named the "Vinet monoplan 1911 Type D."

A larger version of Toura's image is available here:
http://www.in-plano.fr/themes/74/aviation/PL-PL0260/photographie-ancienne.html

L'avion monoplan Vinet en mai 1911
Référence PL-PL0260 / Collection Pierre Léotard

Anyone know what that 5-cylinder engine is? A 35 hp Viale radial, perhaps?

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #226 on: November 24, 2016, 07:45:31 am »
I fed the text to Google translate, then did a little re-arranging:

Quote
It could be said a monster or at least the model of a crazy inventor of a few centuries ago. Instead we received this photograph these days - May 1932 - from America with this precise caption:

"Viewed from the front a mysterious airship: New airship under construction by Mr. Frank Bolger president of Associated Aviation Inc. Clubs of America. The strange device is entirely metal and has two propellers, one in front, one at the rear. When ready it will begin a US tour by visiting more than one thousand locations and major airports."

While we're at it, we would just be very pleased to see this kind of photographed airplane-automobile-blimp take off or land in one of those major airports mentioned above and perhaps - why not? - to come and pay us a little visit in Europe.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #227 on: November 24, 2016, 07:51:29 am »
Thank you my dear Arjen,

and that means,he was not Monsieur de Richmond,as Flying Magazine said.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #228 on: November 24, 2016, 07:53:48 am »
That's what I like to see, Arjen. GoogleTranslate + human intelligence = comprehendable translation (rather than the usual gibberish that GoogleTranslate produces when fed a substantial chunk of text).

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #230 on: December 11, 2016, 09:28:49 pm »
Here is a Moineau biplane drawing.

http://www.avia-it.com/act/biblioteca/periodici/PDF%20Riviste/Ala%20d'Italia/L'ALA%20D'ITALIA%201935%20012.pdf

This could be a product of Avions René Moineau (former Bréguet designer-pilot known for the unsuccessful if interesting WWI remote-engine Salmon-Moineau S.M. 1) but then again "moineau" means "sparrow" so it could just be a model nickname.
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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #231 on: December 12, 2016, 02:51:39 am »
The Moineau biplane was designed and built by MM Bessard & Millevoye at Saint-Ouen in 1935. The drawing above, together with a detailed review of this aeroplane, can be found in Les Ailes of 15 August 1935. The name 'Le Moineau' appears on its fuselage in the accompanying photograph.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 02:53:13 am by avion ancien »

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #232 on: December 12, 2016, 06:20:05 am »
The Moineau biplane was designed and built by MM Bessard & Millevoye at Saint-Ouen in 1935. The drawing above, together with a detailed review of this aeroplane, can be found in Les Ailes of 15 August 1935. The name 'Le Moineau' appears on its fuselage in the accompanying photograph.

Merci!  And here is the article thanks to the French national library online....

Source:  http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6553894j/f3.item
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 06:21:39 am by cluttonfred »
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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #233 on: December 21, 2016, 08:04:07 am »
Thank you my dear Toura,


and here is the Jarrion two seat light aircraft,intended to light aircraft contest
of 1936,remained a project only.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6560504f/f9.image

A clearer view;

http://www.avia-it.com/act/biblioteca/periodici/PDF%20Riviste/Ala%20d'Italia/L'ALA%20D'ITALIA%201937%2008.pdf

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #234 on: December 26, 2016, 07:45:00 am »
Hi,

the ANF-Mureaux had un-numbered Project of 1935,for twin engined airplane
with retractable landing gear.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #235 on: December 31, 2016, 02:51:01 am »
By way of Luftwaffe-Research-Group, a photo with a few odd types

The center aircraft is the Weymann 230/231 discussed elsewhere on this forum. But the aircraft on the left and the right of the Weymann are stumping people.

Original ebay auction - http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Frankreich-Beute-Flugzeuge-franzosische-Luftwaffe-und-deutsche-Maschinen-/361862694939?hash=item5440b2881b:g:U0EAAOSwux5YYCF1

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #236 on: December 31, 2016, 09:08:53 am »
I suppose it's a stupid question to ask whether there is any indication of where the photograph was taken.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #237 on: December 31, 2016, 12:59:04 pm »
Probably Toussus-le-Noble but not certain

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #238 on: January 01, 2017, 02:36:08 am »
If so - how things have changed! However if it is, it seems that the Weymann CTW-231 and the other two aeroplanes have been shoved off into some quiet, shady corner of the aerodrome - because the other known photograph of CTW-231 shows it at the entrance to one of the hangars. That photograph (q.v. http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?99333-Unknown-French-type-captured-by-the-Germans) originated  from Avions Hors Serie Nº 24 'La Debacle de Mai-Juin 1940 - ce que trouverent les Allemands en traversant la France' in which it is described as having been captured by the Germans at Toussus-le-Noble along with other aircraft in various states of condition. I do not have a copy of that magazine. But maybe if someone else does, it would be worth taking a look at that to see if there are any other photographs taken at Toussus-le-Noble at the same time and whether these might assist in identifying the aeroplanes to the left and right of the CTW-231 in the photograph posted above. 
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 02:58:47 am by avion ancien »

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #239 on: January 01, 2017, 03:05:43 am »
On the subject of unidentified French aeroplanes, that depicted below (I apologise for the diminutive size of the image but it was the best I could capture) appeared, a couple of years ago, on le Bon Coin (a French online advertising site) where it was being offered for sale at only a few hundred Euros. It appears to be a Mignet formule design but not one which I recognise. Sadly before I could make enquiries of the seller, the advertisement had been taken down. Can anyone out there identify it?

P.s. I should add that when it was being advertised for sale on le Bon Coin, there was a hyperlink to a video (on, I think, youtube), which showed this aeroplane being taxied frantically around a field, but my attempts subsequently to find this have been entirely unsuccessful.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 03:50:01 am by avion ancien »

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #240 on: January 01, 2017, 04:15:54 am »

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #241 on: January 02, 2017, 07:12:35 pm »
From the diminutive size, prominent cabane and ample landing gear legs, and knowing the time period, my guess would be a Farman F.451 Moustique II for the aircraft obscured by the Weymann and a bathing beauty on the left.



By way of Luftwaffe-Research-Group, a photo with a few odd types

The center aircraft is the Weymann 230/231 discussed elsewhere on this forum. But the aircraft on the left and the right of the Weymann are stumping people.

Original ebay auction - http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Frankreich-Beute-Flugzeuge-franzosische-Luftwaffe-und-deutsche-Maschinen-/361862694939?hash=item5440b2881b:g:U0EAAOSwux5YYCF1
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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #242 on: March 01, 2017, 08:03:58 am »

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #243 on: March 14, 2017, 05:53:03 am »
Hi,

here is a Renault helicopter Project of 1912,from TU issue 122.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #244 on: March 14, 2017, 07:03:10 am »
With reference to the second illustration in the foregoing post, I'm left wondering whether, rather than being a helicopter, this was a machine for performing trepanations!

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #245 on: March 14, 2017, 09:31:51 am »
My dear Avion,

here is the rest of the article to can judge.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #246 on: March 15, 2017, 05:57:23 am »
In the Trait d'Union #208 (Mar-Apr 2003): "in 1934, someone named Goudant designed a flying boat with variable area wing. Two half wings (of 6.25m x 2m) disappear inside the the thick wing. 4 engines, speed near 300km/h, not built."

A more Info;

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6576063q/f7.image.r=Goudant%20hydravion

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #247 on: March 24, 2017, 06:24:47 am »
Hi,

was it a French airplane ?,Trois Amis ?.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #248 on: March 24, 2017, 08:05:29 am »
I think not - even though there's no 'snow on its boots' in the drawing! If you take a look at http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5786.0/nowap.html it would appear that this aeroplane is Russian. Maybe the French periodical, from which your extract emanates, translated Tri Druga as Trois Amis. Maybe if Flight had featured it, the translation would have been Three Comrades!
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 08:07:50 am by avion ancien »

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #249 on: March 24, 2017, 09:21:12 am »
Many thanks my dear Avion,

I thought wrong it was a French,because its name ?.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #250 on: March 24, 2017, 04:57:07 pm »
... Maybe if Flight had featured it, the translation would have been Three Comrades!

 ;D  But Flight did feature the Tri Druga!  Alas, they went with a rather dull translation -- "three friends:P

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1928/1928%20-%201032.html


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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #251 on: March 25, 2017, 04:01:18 am »
..... but it might have been less dull if it had featured in the Daily Mail - which probably would have translated its name as Three Commie B#######s! After all, this aeroplane emerged only four years after it published the Zinoviev Letter.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #252 on: April 21, 2017, 06:35:38 am »
Hi,

here is a canard seaplane which designed by Charles Nungesser.

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9023255f.r=hydravion.langEN

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #253 on: June 04, 2017, 08:35:10 am »
here is the Carmier T-10 light aircraft.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6556104n/f2.image

This designer,Carmier,also had some unbuilt Projects,such as a two-seat low-wing sporting monoplane.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #254 on: September 26, 2017, 08:02:22 pm »
Hi,


from Les Ailes journal,the designer Pierre Bazoin created two aircraft projects,the
first was tourist aircraft with inverse "M" shape,and the second was a six-engined
huge transatlantic flying boat in a weird configuration.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6560495x/f7.image

Some details: 110 tons, 80 m wingspan, total power 15600 CV

So that is something like 2560 hp per prop! So probably three engines each?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 08:06:59 pm by Avimimus »

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #255 on: September 27, 2017, 05:11:43 am »
Thank you Avimimus.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #256 on: September 27, 2017, 10:42:43 am »
Thank you Avimimus.

Thank you for finding and sharing the original source!

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #257 on: October 07, 2017, 08:37:52 am »
Hi,

I think this drawing to a French twin engined biplane of WWI,can any ID it ?.

https://www.zazzle.de/doppeldecker_flugzeuge_wwi_postkarte-239011534185463156

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #258 on: October 07, 2017, 11:45:55 am »
Farman F.60... :o
I see you on the dark side of the moon.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #259 on: October 07, 2017, 03:02:21 pm »
Thank you Maveric.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #260 on: July 10, 2018, 05:12:18 am »
Hi,

here is a drawing to Chappedelaine CD-1 Aerogyre.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #261 on: July 12, 2018, 04:30:05 am »
Also a patent for Chappedelaine.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #262 on: January 07, 2019, 08:06:06 am »
From Ailes 1/1945,

does anyone hear about Maurice Paltz MP-19 & MP-20 light airplanes,maybe a Projects ?.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #263 on: January 07, 2019, 08:35:59 am »
The answer is completely in the article, you posted:
Maurice Paltz was an aviation engineer, who worked for Guerchais-Roche and Holste and
proposed those 2, or better one-and-a half designs, intended for amateur construction and
designed for easy building. And both designs differed in wing only, the fuselage was the same.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #264 on: January 07, 2019, 03:12:56 pm »
The answer is completely in the article, you posted:
Maurice Paltz was an aviation engineer, who worked for Guerchais-Roche and Holste and
proposed those 2, or better one-and-a half designs, intended for amateur construction and
designed for easy building. And both designs differed in wing only, the fuselage was the same.

Many thanks to you my dear Jemiba.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #265 on: January 12, 2019, 04:26:06 am »
Hi,

here is Atalante airplanes,the GB.10,GB.12,GB14,GB.16 and GB.18,most of
them were remained a Projects as I know.

Decollage 7/1946

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #266 on: January 12, 2019, 04:50:15 am »
It would appear that the Atalante GB-10 survived the war as it had been mentioned in Les Ailes of 14 April 1938. It was designed by G.Bertout (hence the initials GB) for the Société des Avions 'Atalante' and had been constructed by Ateliers Nicolas in Auxerre. Les Ailes reported that had been had been presented, earlier that month, at Villacoublay Aerodrome and that it had been demonstrated at St Cyr Aerodrome.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #267 on: January 12, 2019, 05:18:48 am »
Thank you my dear Avion.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #268 on: January 12, 2019, 07:10:55 am »
Just a thought, but wouldn't this 1946 emanation of the GB-10 Atalante be better placed on the post-war aircraft projects board?

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #269 on: January 13, 2019, 01:21:17 am »
This article is mainly about the GB-10, I think, a type from 1938. As I understand (please correct me, if I'm wrong !),
the other types would have been closely related to the GB-10, versions for different purposes/clients and maybe
designed in the time between 1938 and 46. So it's ok, I think, to deal with them in this section here, as long, as we
have no clear evidence otherwise.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #270 on: January 13, 2019, 04:09:02 am »
Thank you my dear Jemiba,

and from TU 134,here is some Info,but the strange thing is it was derivative fron
CFA.10 & CFA.30 ?.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #271 on: January 13, 2019, 07:17:52 am »
From Ailes 10/1945,

here is a DS.10, a low-wing light monoplane Project as I suggest,created by J. Durandeaux,
in the book; Les Avions Francais 1944-1964,he designed a light aircraft called D.510,or
maybe it was a misprint and they meant DS.10 and they saw the letter "S" as the number
"5"  ?!.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #272 on: January 13, 2019, 07:45:19 am »
Curiously the TU index for issues 1 to 266 contains no mention of Durandeaux and the D.510 or DS.10 and Pierre Gaillard's book is succinct in the extreme in describing it as an amateur built light aeroplane dating from about 1945 (with no illustration). I wonder whether it was realised?

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #273 on: January 13, 2019, 08:07:24 am »
My dear Avion,

please see.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #274 on: January 14, 2019, 05:12:13 am »
Curiously the TU index for issues 1 to 266 contains no mention of Durandeaux and the D.510 or DS.10 and Pierre Gaillard's book is succinct in the extreme in describing it as an amateur built light aeroplane dating from about 1945 (with no illustration). I wonder whether it was realised?

My dear Avion,

if you meant the list or index,it's nothing,I have more than 200 issues of it and after they
published this index they discovered many companies and designers,and they put them in their
issues,according to the index; the articles : Les Constructeurs Francais must ended by issue 266,
but it still appear and reach to issue 302,although they don't finish letter "S" yet ?.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #275 on: January 14, 2019, 08:12:49 am »
From Ailes 11/1945,

here is  amazing two airplanes,from M. Lafon and G. Dabat.

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Re: Little-known French projects and prototypes
« Reply #276 on: January 15, 2019, 07:54:29 am »
From Avions No. 127, a little-known prototype identified as the "Fellot Lacour" [F-PJCV], christened "L'ancêtre" (the ancestor), though the spelling is apparently unsure.

From Ailes 11/1945 and TU magazine issue 91,

here is all of Fellot-Lacour airpplanes,FL.1,FL.2,FL.3,FL.4,FL.10,FL.20 & FL.201

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #277 on: January 17, 2019, 05:06:15 am »
From Ailes 10/1945,

here is a DS.10, a low-wing light monoplane Project as I suggest,created by J. Durandeaux,
in the book; Les Avions Francais 1944-1964,he designed a light aircraft called D.510,or
maybe it was a misprint and they meant DS.10 and they saw the letter "S" as the number
"5"  ?!.

It was actually built,from Ailes 12/1945.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #278 on: January 17, 2019, 05:42:40 am »

It was actually built,from Ailes 12/1945.

But the text of that report [in translation] says, inter alia, that:

'..... it is the model of this aeroplane that is represented in the two photographs, that we reproduce above.'

and it goes on to talk about the engine which it is envisaged will power the D.S.10 and the tests that it will undergo. I can find nothing in the report that says or suggests that, in December 1945, a full scale DS.10 had been built or had flown. Maybe later reports will establish this. I keep an open mind.

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #279 on: January 19, 2019, 04:20:08 am »
Hi,

here is a tailless airplane,designed by A. Bonnel,appeared in 1939.

Ailes 1/1946

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Re: Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes
« Reply #280 on: February 18, 2019, 05:21:50 am »
Hi,

here is an idea for variable swing arrow wing research airplane of 1941,designed by
Mr. Pierre Launay and Mr. Marc Sommier,looks like a fighter Project ?.