US Navy "V/STOL Type A" competition

flateric

ACCESS: USAP
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
1 April 2006
Messages
10,701
Reaction score
6,567
Found at NASA Glenn Research Center ImageNet site

Title says VARIABLE STEAM CONTROL ENGINE - MCAIR MCDONNELL AIRCRAFT V/STOL VERTICAL SHORT TAKE OFF LANDING - RI V/STOL - BOEING V/STOL that questions whose stuff it is
 

Attachments

  • 1976_02207L.jpg
    1976_02207L.jpg
    20.4 KB · Views: 1,992
  • 1976_02208L.jpg
    1976_02208L.jpg
    26.9 KB · Views: 1,888
  • 1976_02209L.jpg
    1976_02209L.jpg
    18.9 KB · Views: 1,861
I'm well aware we have dozens of posts already in the existing US VSTOL Projects topic, but I want to split that one up a bit. Therefore I'm creating this topic, with an image from NASA Glenn image archives.
 

Attachments

  • 1978_02347L.JPG
    1978_02347L.JPG
    18.6 KB · Views: 2,054
Interesting program which brought up very interesting designs ! Here are 3 more, not
shown in the NASA picture:
- a derivative of the Bell XV-15
- a General Dynamics propulsion lift wing concept
- a Lockheed four engined/3 fan design
(All from Aviation Week November 1977)
 

Attachments

  • Bell_XV-15.JPG
    Bell_XV-15.JPG
    42.6 KB · Views: 1,666
  • GD_Type-A.JPG
    GD_Type-A.JPG
    69.7 KB · Views: 620
  • Lockheed_Type-A.JPG
    Lockheed_Type-A.JPG
    28.9 KB · Views: 594
My gosh! Those were the days; six competing companies for a VTOL program.
 
hesham said:
Hi,

http://www.scramble.nl/wiki/index.php?title=Image:1978_02347L.jpg

Any chance of a bigger scan of the picture?

Regards,

Greg
 
yasotay said:
My gosh! Those were the days; six competing companies for a VTOL program.

What's more, the illustration doesn't include the Bell Tilt Rotor proposal, which was arguably proven to be the best candidate from a practicality and performance standpoint for Type A V/STOL, at which point the Navy effectively terminated the program.
 

Attachments

  • Navy Type A.jpg
    Navy Type A.jpg
    134.6 KB · Views: 489
According to my files, here are the identified contenders for the U.S. Navy's "Type A" design competition.

  • Bell D324
  • Boeing unknown designation
  • Boeing 1041-133
  • Boeing 1041-134
  • Grumman G-698
  • General Dynamics 310
  • General Dynamics A-311
  • Lockheed unknown designation (2 variants)
  • McDonnell Douglas 260
  • McDonnell Douglas 260R
  • McDonnell Douglas 276
  • Rockwell NA-420
  • Rockwell NA-430
  • Rockwell NA-431
  • Vought V-530 (2 tail configurations)
  • Vought V-534
  • Vought V-537
Attached are two little diagrams that show the main contenders and complement the one overscan posted at the beginning of this thread.
 

Attachments

  • collage.jpg
    collage.jpg
    136.6 KB · Views: 676
  • Type A.jpg
    Type A.jpg
    84 KB · Views: 683
Here's what was probably the primary Sikorsky response to the Type A requirement. Ultimately was not officially submitted.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A bit more on the USN Type A, and the related Type B and Type C requirements can be found in this 1980 Rand report, primarily on pages 14 & 15, although there are other little tibbits throughout the document (note: search function doesn't work for body text, so you'll have to go through it the hard way!).

By the way, there's a few paragraphs on the Rockwell XFV-12A (page 43), as well as mention of certain other programs.

Another separate little tibbit. In at least one related study, the Type A was also referred to as the 'Projected Future Tactical Aircraft'.
 
A fair bit of info on the Vought primary submission for the Type A requirement, the V-530, as well as it's STOL Attack twin (also referred to as a CTOL baseline), the V-534, can be found throughout this thread. Also in the thread, among other things, is data on Vought's Type B proposals and related work.

Here's a chart borrowed from another thread on a possible Micro S-3 variant:


index.php
 
One of the more unreasonable requirements for the V/STOL Type A was that it be operable from the DD-963 Spruance-class destroyer and fit in the hangar (which was designed to hold two LAMPS MkIIIs, if I remember correctly). This is a fairly large model of the helipad and hangar of this ship.

The "powered-lift" contenders tried desperately to kill the tiltrotor as a candidate. One of the features that was condemned as a drawback was the benefit of ground effect on rotor thrust. The knock was that one rotor would lose lift as it moved off the deck, causing a loss of roll control. This demonstrated either mendacity or a complete lack of understanding of the aerodynamics involved. The tiltrotor uses differential collective for roll control. Collective is very responsive and with the thrust out at the wingtips, roll control is excellent.

In response to the criticism, Bell built a simulator about the size of half a ping-pong table for trade shows which featured a flying tiltrotor model powered by two electric motors turning fixed-pitch propellers; varying the motor rpm varied thrust. The controls provided were collective (vertical thrust) and roll (differential thrust). It could be flown onto and off of a model of the aft end of a DD-963 by anybody with a minute or two of practice. Although not strictly speaking a valid engineering demonstration, it effectively put an end to the prattle about deck-edge effect.
 
After several merges and splits in the past, this topic is now reserved for discussions and sharing about the US Navy's "Type A" program as a whole or to submit unidentified or ill-documented contenders.

Please post info and pictures about specific design in one of these specific posts:
  • Grumman G-698 V/STOL (US Navy "Type A" proposal) [link]
  • Bell D321 and D324 V/STOL (US Navy "Type A" proposals) [link]
  • Rockwell NA-430 and NA-431 (US Navy "Type A" proposals) [link]
  • Boeing Model 1041 and other V/STOL "Type A" proposals [link]
  • McDonnell Douglas Model 276 V/STOL (US Navy "Type A" proposal) [link]
  • Lockheed V/STOL (US Navy "Type A" proposal) [link]
  • Lockheed "Micro" S-3 Viking variant (US Navy "Type A" proposal) [link]
  • Vought (LTV) V-530 and V-534 (US Navy "Type A" proposals) [link]
  • General Dynamics A-310/A-311 V/STOL (US Navy "Type A" proposals) [link]
Thanks a lot! ;)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
In a Vought report describing also the Vought V-530, a second "Type A" proposal is described (presumably also a Vought study).

Description of Tilt Nacelle Aircraft

This V/STOL aircraft uses two propulsive nacelles mounted such that total (or effective) thrust in the V-Mode acts through the aircraft C.G. Each propulsive nacelle contains a turboshaft engine driving a high-by-pass ratio fan. The nacelles tilt through an arc of 100°.

The moderately high aspect ratio wing is mounted low on the fuselage with the inboard trailing edge section cut out for the tilting nacelle.

The conventional fuselage size and shape is determined by the requirements of crew, equipment, fuel volume, and support for wing, surfaces, nacelles, and alighting gear attachments.

The wide stance main gear is mounted in pods extending aft from the wing structural box to satisfy tip-over and tip-back considerations. The nose gear mounts and retracts into the fuselage.

In aerodynamic forward flight control is from conventional surfaces; ailerons for roll, elevators for pitch, and the rudder for directional. In thrust supported flight, control in all three axis is obtained as follows:
  • Roll – Variable inlet guide vanes on each fan allow modulating the thrust differentially between left and right fan thrust.
  • Pitch and yaw — Fore and aft reaction nozzles whose thrust is provided by continuous bleed air from the two engines.
A general arrangement of this aircraft is shown in Figure 8. Propulsion system characteristics are presented in Figure 9 and the drive system is shown schematically in Figure 10 with a list of the main propulsion components.

Source: V/STOL Aircraft Design Sensitivity To Flying Qualities Criteria Study - Mid-term Report (Vought Corporation, 28 September 1979)
 

Attachments

  • Type A - Fig 8 small.gif
    Type A - Fig 8 small.gif
    74.3 KB · Views: 333
  • Type A - Fig 9 small.gif
    Type A - Fig 9 small.gif
    49 KB · Views: 260
  • Type A - Fig 10 small.gif
    Type A - Fig 10 small.gif
    89.2 KB · Views: 271
The UK also put up some designs, with Hawker Siddeley/BAe Hatfield taking the lead. Pics attached.

Config 1 – 3 Pegasus (one in fuselage) with RCS + control fans
Config 2 – 2 RB.193 and 4 x XJ.99
Config 3 – 6 RB.202 lift fans, two of which pivoted for lift/cruise
Config 4 used 4 turboshafts to drive fan via gearbox, with two reverse mounted in booms

Ref AHS Paper:

UK V/STOL Transport Aircraft Concepts of the 20th Century
Michael J. Pryce
Michael J. Hirschberg
 

Attachments

  • HatfieldVSTOLA.gif
    HatfieldVSTOLA.gif
    142.9 KB · Views: 364

Attachments

  • AC76-1061_small.jpg
    AC76-1061_small.jpg
    128.8 KB · Views: 271
  • AC76-1060_small.jpg
    AC76-1060_small.jpg
    110 KB · Views: 276
I thought it was a McAir 260 at first, but then it could also be a Boeing 1041...
 

Attachments

  • Fig 2.jpg
    Fig 2.jpg
    73.6 KB · Views: 1,501
Stargazer, don´t think so. The Boeing model is a tilt-nacelle design. But you are right, lots of similarities.

Btw, I´m in progress of making a CAD-3D model of the Boeing Model 1041-133-1 ASW-airplane. I based the shape on the attached side and top view. Unfortunately low resolution and no cross sections available :(

Rgds Michael
 

Attachments

  • ASW_1041-133-1_inboard profile.jpg
    ASW_1041-133-1_inboard profile.jpg
    172.3 KB · Views: 1,526
VTOLicious said:
YES! Finally found the high resolution version!

Way cool! Thanks for sharing.


VTOLicious said:
Stargazer, don´t think so. The Boeing model is a tilt-nacelle design. But you are right, lots of similarities.

Indeed. On second look the propulsion system is decidedly very different, but general configuration shows a lot of common ideas.
 
Also from 17-18/1980 file,


maybe that was a Boeing concepts for Navy Type A.
 

Attachments

  • 1.png
    1.png
    110.2 KB · Views: 1,229
  • 2.png
    2.png
    179.1 KB · Views: 1,139
Hi,


here is some Navy Type A designs,with strange concept in the first picture,right drawing.


http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a053417.pdf
 

Attachments

  • 1.png
    1.png
    141.4 KB · Views: 282
  • 2.png
    2.png
    155.7 KB · Views: 256
  • 3.png
    3.png
    141.2 KB · Views: 251
  • 4.png
    4.png
    207.2 KB · Views: 268
4.PNG Figure 1 above looks like it's based on the Saberliner.
 
There was a diagram of a really interesting Type A proposal in a link from this thread. It was an aew variant, but instead of having a radome it had sideways looking radars on the sides of the rear fuselage and radars in the nose and tail for maximum coverage. I can't seem to find it now. Can anybody point me in the right direction? Cheers!

nova
 
Found it! It was the McDonnell Douglas Model 276 with the side antennas. These "Type A" aircraft could be very useful for the navies with aircraft carriers that aren't large enough for fixed wing aew and asw, i.e. most of them. With the increasing number of navies with submarines and carrier based fighters an aew/asw aircraft with better performance and range than a helicopter is a definite plus. Would a S-3 Viking re-engined with Pegasus fulfil this role too? After all, the Pegasus powered Harrier is the only aircraft not to have a place in The V/Stol Wheel Of Misfortune. Some of the "Type A" contenders (for example, the Boeing Model 1041) look too complicated to work and sacrifice too much internal room and weight for myriad interconnecting cross shafts, moving ducts and too many fans and engines. Far too many things to go wrong. IMHO, the Grumman 698, the Lockheed proposal and the Bell D321 and D324 look like the surest bets, if only because their designs appear less complicated. I'd be interested in what your opinions on this subject are. Cheers!

nova
 
Hi,

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a144214.pdf
 

Attachments

  • 1.png
    1.png
    43.7 KB · Views: 209
  • 2.png
    2.png
    32.2 KB · Views: 185
  • 3.png
    3.png
    48.1 KB · Views: 186
  • 4.png
    4.png
    105.1 KB · Views: 181
  • 5.png
    5.png
    65.2 KB · Views: 238
zebedee said:
From the September 1987 Hatfield Future Projects Newsletter:

1976-77 BAe/HSA Hatfield entries for the US Navy Type A V/STOL competition. Two designs are shown, one a twin boom ducted fan design, the other with three vectored thrust engines and three lift fans.

"This page devoted to our work of a decade ago for a submission to meet a US Navy requirement for a V/STOL aircraft, is published to serve as a small tribute to Charles Bradbury*. Who, in 1977 when this HSA/BAe submission being entered with other US competition for the Type A Aircraft capable of carrier borne operation, was responsible for the overall design of one of four types proposed. Known as Aircraft Configuration No 1, Charles designed this to incorporate three lift/cruise engine and three lift fans. In 1976 the US Navy confirmed the need for a V/STOL Type A, with missionised versions suitable for ASW, AEW Marine Assault, VOD, Tanker and SAR roles, in order to increase effectiveness of ship based airpower. VTOL would allow dispersal to small ships, with STO would permit increased capability from larger ships. BAe/HSA was one of six companies who submitted some eight volumes comprising the total submission in answer to US Navy requirements. One of the principal projects included in this submission was an advanced ducted fan, twin boom aircraft, for which Charles displaying his talents as an artist produced this lively impression in oils of the aircraft, for use within the promotional and presentation material."

Zeb

* Recently deceased at time of publication, edition also features a full obituary

usn-vtol-2-jpg.612814


usn-vtol-3-jpg.612816


usn-vtol-4-jpg.612818
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Greetings and salutations my friends,

I'm trying to find a schematic of an aircraft on this site. I'm not entirely sure it is even part of the US Navy "Type A" competition though it certainly fits the specification. It is a three seat (I think) asw v/stol aircraft powered by a single Rolls-Royce Pegasus engine. I've been tearing my hair out trying to find it on this site with no joy. Can anybody help?

Have a better one,
 

Attachments

  • 255_GRC_1978_02347.jpg
    255_GRC_1978_02347.jpg
    3.8 MB · Views: 247
V/STOL Type A notional requirements, these were found to be unrealistic through the industry studies:

A single base aircraft to perform ASW, AEW, Marine Assault, COD, Tanker, and SAR missions with an operating radius of 150-300nm, except for in the COD role where a 1,875nm range with 7,500lbs of cargo was requested. The aircraft was to be able to operate from the flight deck of a DD-963 (Spruance) in Sea state 5 and 0-0 weather and make an automatic landing with one engine out.

The requested mean time between failure (MTBF) was 11 hours and mean time to repair failure of 1 hour whilst a complete engine change should be possible in 20 minutes.

In terms of survivability, the aircraft was to be hardened against nuclear effects and no single hit should result in the loss of the aircraft.

The folded dimensions were to be within 50ft (length) x 19 (width) x 14.5ft (height) to enable stowage of one aircraft in DD-963 (Spruance) and DDG-47 (Ticonderoga) ships and two in the CSGN Mk-1. Initial estimates suggested 40-47,000lb vertical take-off weights for the ASW and AEW versions which was compatible with the DD-963 class, with 60,000lb for STOL operations from Vertical Support Ships (VSS) or carriers.

The proposed development timeline is attached.
 

Attachments

  • Senate Armed Services Commitee_Type A V:STOL timeline.png
    Senate Armed Services Commitee_Type A V:STOL timeline.png
    94.4 KB · Views: 108
From Hearing report.
 

Attachments

  • 4.png
    4.png
    1.3 MB · Views: 76
  • 5.png
    5.png
    2 MB · Views: 79
  • 6.png
    6.png
    1.8 MB · Views: 66
  • 0.png
    0.png
    104.8 KB · Views: 91
One of the more unreasonable requirements for the V/STOL Type A was that it be operable from the DD-963 Spruance-class destroyer and fit in the hangar (which was designed to hold two LAMPS MkIIIs, if I remember correctly). This is a fairly large model of the helipad and hangar of this ship.

The "powered-lift" contenders tried desperately to kill the tiltrotor as a candidate. One of the features that was condemned as a drawback was the benefit of ground effect on rotor thrust. The knock was that one rotor would lose lift as it moved off the deck, causing a loss of roll control. This demonstrated either mendacity or a complete lack of understanding of the aerodynamics involved. The tiltrotor uses differential collective for roll control. Collective is very responsive and with the thrust out at the wingtips, roll control is excellent.

In response to the criticism, Bell built a simulator about the size of half a ping-pong table for trade shows which featured a flying tiltrotor model powered by two electric motors turning fixed-pitch propellers; varying the motor rpm varied thrust. The controls provided were collective (vertical thrust) and roll (differential thrust). It could be flown onto and off of a model of the aft end of a DD-963 by anybody with a minute or two of practice. Although not strictly speaking a valid engineering demonstration, it effectively put an end to the prattle about deck-edge effect.
Gotta love the "take that!" prototypes built for either lawsuits or trade fairs like this.
 
From this report.

 

Attachments

  • 14.png
    14.png
    256.9 KB · Views: 39
  • 15.png
    15.png
    71.9 KB · Views: 44
  • 0.png
    0.png
    455.8 KB · Views: 42
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top Bottom