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Author Topic: VFA: V/STOL Fighters for Sea Control Ships (XFV-12 rivals)  (Read 9389 times)

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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VFA: V/STOL Fighters for Sea Control Ships (XFV-12 rivals)
« on: April 13, 2006, 01:14:33 pm »
July 1973, VSTOL and Sea Control Ships
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 03:38:54 pm by Stargazer2006 »
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Offline Pioneer

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Re: VFA: V/STOL Fighters for Sea Control Ships (XFV-12 rivals)
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2007, 06:17:50 pm »
I think it a great pity that the likes of the Grumman Model 607A or the Convair Model 200 designs were not picked to be developed further, instead of the more risky Rockwell XFV-12A design.
The greatest loser of all this of cause was the USN/USMC, and possibly the RN and RAF, who could have had (either the Grumman or Convair designs) in front-line service, as AV-8C / GR.3 Harrier replacement decades ago.
Yes a great pity indeed!

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Pioneer
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: VFA: V/STOL Fighters for Sea Control Ships (XFV-12 rivals)
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2008, 04:20:44 pm »
We've discussed this program elsewhere but I wanted to bring all posts into one topic start again with information from "The Pentagon Paradox" added to information presented previously.

11 designs submitted.
Convair Model 200 F100 engine, paired XJ99 liftjets ejecting through the bottom of the fuselage (1st ranked design)
Fairchild FR-150, F100 engine, rotating XJ99 lift engines, 27,000lbs (STO) and 21,000lbs (VTO) (2nd ranked design)
LTV V-517  19,950lb, TF30 engine, paired XJ99 liftjets ejecting through the bottom of the fuselage (3rd ranked design)
Rockwell NR-356: Mach 2.7: "not recommended" but idea merited further research
Boeing 908-535 Twin YJ101 tailsitter/VATOL, 17,000lbs, Mach 2.6-2.8 (also known as D-180)
San Diego Aircraft Engineering (Sandaire) "Stinger", 17,377lb. Lightest design.
Grumman Model 607: 37,353lb, Mach 2.0, F401 engine, 2 XJ99 liftjets ducted to rotating nozzles, no vertical takeoff.
Lockheed 24,000lb turboprop-powered tail sitter derived from XFV-1, Allison T56 engine. Perhaps CL-1290??
VFW Fokker VAK.191 Mk.3 (A VAK 191B derivative, bigger and more powerful)
McDonnell Douglas Advanced Harrier AV-16
McDonnell Douglas Model 258-52
de Havilland Canada DHC P-71-30 lift augmentation design

(Note there are 12 designs listed here, not 11. Most sources agree on most candidates but not all)

A second informal competition was held in 1972, the next year. Vought moved from V-517 to V-520 (?) while McDonnell-Douglas had Model 262 (AV-8C), Grumman 607A.


American Secret Projects has illustrations of 909-535, Model 200, G-607A, V-517, V-520, NR-356.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 05:33:44 pm by overscan »
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Offline Jemiba

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Re: VFA: V/STOL Fighters for Sea Control Ships (XFV-12 rivals)
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2008, 03:45:13 am »
From Aviation Week 3/1972 the following designs:
1) Boeing tailsitter
2) General Dynamics
3) Grumman
4) Lockheed (turboprop)
5) North American
6) Fairchild Republic
7) LTV
8) McDonnel Douglas

Sorry for the bad quality, but the original picture was quite faint ... :-[
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Online AeroFranz

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Re: VFA: V/STOL Fighters for Sea Control Ships (XFV-12 rivals)
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2010, 04:39:00 pm »
i don't think i've seen these posted yet, so...
they are from an AIAA paper called "The North American Rockwell XFV-12A - Reflections and some lessons"

these were the competing designs for use on the sea control ships. I apologize for the low-quality. The company names should be readable or deducible.

edit: maybe it's not as readable as i thought...the fighter designs are, reading clockwise from the top center:

Fighters:

Republic (looks like swiveling lift jets)
LTV V-X1X (unreadable number)
DeHavilland (looks amost like the E-7 ejector augmentor)
Grumman (lift plus lift/cruise)
LTV V320 or 520, looks like some sort of RALS
unreadable, looks like another lift plus lift/cruise
VFW Fokker - looks like a VAK 191 or similar
N.A. with the XFV-12
Harrier
Convair lift plus lift/cruise
in the middle there is a Boeing concept for a 'perched' fighter a la X-13 Vertijet, with hinged cockpit

Sensor carrier:

Unreadable (maybe Bell?)
NA derived from Bronco, with ejector augmentor
Lockheed compound helo
Kaman (seasprite?)
Dupont? is it that monstruosity?
Boeing Vertol something something
Piasecki pathfinder-like helo
General aviation? looks like a tiltwing

in the middle:
unreadable, looks like a tandem wing with a mid-mounted rotor- possibly like the Rotodyne
Lockheed-General dynamics CL-84 look-alike


funny that i see no XV-5-like lift fan configurations...

« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 05:02:53 pm by AeroFranz »
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: VFA: V/STOL Fighters for Sea Control Ships (XFV-12 rivals)
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2010, 06:03:49 pm »
LTV V-X1X (unreadable number)

That's LTV V-517.

LTV V320 or 520, looks like some sort of RALS

That's LTV V-520.

Boeing Vertol something something

That's "Boeing Vertol / Grumman / Bell / Westland".
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 06:08:21 pm by Stargazer2006 »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: VFA: V/STOL Fighters for Sea Control Ships (XFV-12 rivals)
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2010, 06:29:02 pm »
I can id all the designs in the top picture, most have been posted here elsewhere. Will do so tonight.
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Re: VFA: V/STOL Fighters for Sea Control Ships (XFV-12 rivals)
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2010, 07:06:51 pm »
Good eyes, Stephane! Or more likely you already knew these. ;)
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline Jemiba

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Re: VFA: V/STOL Fighters for Sea Control Ships (XFV-12 rivals)
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2010, 09:37:17 pm »
I think, we had several of the fighter designs here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,559.15.html
I had the picture from Aviation Week, March 1972 cut into pieces then, here it is
in all again, with the caption. Perhaps it rings a bell for someone.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: VFA: V/STOL Fighters for Sea Control Ships (XFV-12 rivals)
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2010, 01:41:16 am »
Labelled correctly. I've gathered as many of the designs into this topic as possible.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 01:58:22 am by overscan »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: VFA: V/STOL Fighters for Sea Control Ships (XFV-12 rivals)
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2010, 02:00:26 am »
VAK.191 Mk 3 here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,391.0.html.

Sandair Stinger and the DHC P-71-30 are new illustrations to me.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 02:13:32 am by overscan »
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Offline Pioneer

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Re: VFA: V/STOL Fighters for Sea Control Ships (XFV-12 rivals)
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2013, 08:39:35 pm »
I'm somewhat curious as to the Boeing design submission to VFA, as on this forum and in books I've seen the Boeing design as a very different aircraft aka - http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15461.0.html
 
Regards
Pioneer
 
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M

Offline hesham

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Re: VFA: V/STOL Fighters for Sea Control Ships (XFV-12 rivals)
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2015, 06:16:53 am »
I think, we had several of the fighter designs here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,559.15.html
I had the picture from Aviation Week, March 1972 cut into pieces then, here it is
in all again, with the caption. Perhaps it rings a bell for someone.



My dear Jemiba,


the same artist drawing from FlygapenNytt 4-1972

Offline hesham

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Offline Pioneer

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Re: VFA: V/STOL Fighters for Sea Control Ships (XFV-12 rivals)
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2016, 09:31:49 pm »
Going through some of my old 'paper' documentation and found the following in information sent to me many moons ago (2005) from Vought Archives - re the LTV V-517 design submission:

Quote
2.2 PROGRAM GROUND RULES

- Two prototype airplanes to be produced
- Budgetary quality cost estimates
- Assumed contract go-ahead - mid-February 1972
- Engineering Design 95% complete - March 1973
- First flight - June 1974
- All Navy/contractor flight testing to be performed at VAC facility - No off-site operations
- Navy production decision - February 1975
- Minimum cost and minimum time approaches are essential - prototype to be oriented towards technology rather than full compliance with the many requirements essential to a full engineering development
- No engineering required for mock-ups

Well its not much, but its something  ;)

Regards
Pioneer
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M