Soviet "Torpedo Trawler"

Lauge

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Recently, defensetech.org posted an article on an old Soviet naval project that, as far as I can tell, has not been mentioned here: A trawler with a new sonar and a below-the-waterline torpedo tube (http://defensetech.org/2012/03/09/cold-war-tech-soviet-torpedo-trawlers/).

According to the reference provided, the vessel shown was most likely a one-off test article.

I find the project fascinating, reeking as it does of the old WW I and WW II AMC's and "Hilfskreuzer".

Does anyone know more?

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg
 

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It’s a torpedo and sonar trials ship variant of 1823/1824 Muna class which was mainly used as a coastal naval ammunition transport. The OS hull number means Opitnoye Sudno or experimental vessel.
Soviet AGIs may well have had torpedo tubes as was much rumored, but this isn't one of them, nor does its configuration make much sense for that role. Too much drag costing speed you need to chase warships around, and you don't need blatant sonar a NATO submarine would spot while doing a hull surface to attack surface targets. Many small torpedo test ships like this exist or have existed around the world. Given the way the USSR thought about life, I 'd imagine if a war broke out it had some kind of secondary harbor defense mission.
 
Sea Skimmer said:
It’s a torpedo and sonar trials ship variant of 1823/1824 Muna class.

Gracias, Senor :) Is this information from a book, or some other (relatively) easily available source?

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg
 
Soviet "trawlers" used to hang outside the entrances to US submarine bases. I read a comment once by a submariner who said that a common joke during the Cold War was that if they got an order for a surge, the first submarine out got the honor of sinking the trawler.
 
Sea Skimmer said:
It’s a torpedo and sonar trials ship variant of 1823/1824 Muna class which was mainly used as a coastal naval ammunition transport. The OS hull number means Opitnoye Sudno or experimental vessel.
Soviet AGIs may well have had torpedo tubes as was much rumored, but this isn't one of them, nor does its configuration make much sense for that role. Too much drag costing speed you need to chase warships around, and you don't need blatant sonar a NATO submarine would spot while doing a hull surface to attack surface targets. Many small torpedo test ships like this exist or have existed around the world. Given the way the USSR thought about life, I 'd imagine if a war broke out it had some kind of secondary harbor defense mission.

So why place the torpedo tubes below the waterline? Any hull penetration introduces all sorts of cost/safety/operational factors and these underwater torpedo tubes on a trials platform would be unrepresentative of typical configurations. Ship-launched torpedoes are, in my experience, generally shot from tubes on the weather deck (or above the water anyway). Sub-launched torpedoes are launched from a greater depth than this installation would provide (A few meters of depth might not seem important, but the hydrostatic pressure would be very different as would the sonar environment. In this "trial installation", the sonar would have to contend with up close surface conditions and occasional broaching - stuff that doesn't affect subs.)
I'd bet that this vessel had a covert purpose. If so, it's unsurprising that it's owners would have an alternate explanation.
 
So you think they'd convert a known torpedo/ammunition transport ship into a covert torpedo platform, with a torpedo mounting that would be blatantly obvious to a NATO submarine doing a hull search, as opposed to one even remotely hidden, and that it would have sonar which is logical only if its going to covertly attack submarines, and then to round things off they assign it a hull number which specifically designates it as an experimental vessel rather then retaining a number of another torpedo/ammo transport? Does that really make sense to you? Feel free to point out any errors of my thinking, but, it seems pretty convoluted.

Now if you think the Soviets were really worried about the safety or cost of placing two underwater torpedo tubes on a small transport for tests, well, have you noticed the Kirov class, or Chernobyl, or all the subs they built that sank? The Soviet Union was one of the most unsafe and excessive places you ever could dream up, and the Red Fleet had hoards of unusual auxiliaries already like dedicated liquid missile fuel transport ships.

As for broaching, if you think this tube will come out of the water, how do you think it would remain a covert platform if it was steaming on the open ocean? If you wanted covert torpedoes for an ASW role that just doesn't make a lot of sense compared to say, a submerged broadside tube in a freighter with an retracting hull sonar. Such a setup would actually be pretty hard to detect even with a hull search. This ship meanwhile is as blatant as you could be. I wouldn’t even have a normal bow wave because of the knuckle effect of the big blunt tube door. For covert anti surface attack above water tubes would be much cheaper, and you have no need of sonar in any case.

Also you are incorrect on depth for other nation’s trials platforms. I just looked up the US Cape Flattery class trial ships, and they had 21in tubes and only 10.5ft draft, the stock Project 1824 Muna draws 8.5ft. Cape Flattery was designed from scratch for the torpedo trials role, so had more depth been any real importance they would have had it. The USN bought no less then four of them too. Even if this ship draws a little less water then a stock Muna we are talking about a difference of perhaps 1 meter of draft. I have a very hard time buying that this could be relevant. Conduct trials in good weather and it will be fine. You can choose when to fire torpedoes in trials, a useful covert operations platform could not be dependent on calm weather.
Also notice how it has a crane, and was designed to transport ammunition. That’s a nice feature for recovering test torpedoes. Its very logical to turn a small ammunition ship into a trials hull, I can't see any specific logic that would support using it for covert operations, and many reasons I've listed why it doesn't make sense. Certainly the Soviets had many secret plans, but this doesn't look like one of them to me. My guess is it has sonar so it can do trials with wire guided torpedoes.
 
Lauge said:
Gracias, Senor :) Is this information from a book, or some other (relatively) easily available source?


Everything I know came from the internet, some of it a while ago. The pictures are from 2006, and have been traveling around the internet since that time. The folks at Defense Tech seem to be making a sport of posting old pictures as a big deal, them doing a whole thing on the air launch Minuteman was kind of sad. Project 1823 is the stock Muna, Project 1824 is Muna with twin torpedo tubes and more then one exists or existed. Other then that I've never seen any other information.


Bow on shot can be seen here
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7121/317039.jpg


Basic Muna specs and a side view of a normal one here. It gives speed as 11 knots, so no hope of chasing down NATO warships at cruising speed, or even typical merchant ships.
http://warfare.ru/?lang=&linkid=2128&catid=298
 
Sea Skimmer's got it right. The Soviets/Russians used several of these as torpedo trials ships at various research institutes around the former USSR. One appears to still be in service on Lake Issyk-Kul in Kyrgyzstan, where the Russian Navy still maintains a small presence:


See for example "Flot na Arale i Issyk-Kule" (The Navy on the Aral Sea and Lake Issyk-Kul) on the Russian-language Aviabase forum:
http://forums.airbase.ru/2006/10/t51508,2--flot-na-arale-i-issyk-kule.html


OS-213, the vessel supporting the Issyk-Kul operation is actually a Project 1858, vice 1824 (Muna), but same function. This isn't as odd an arrangement as might seem. TNK Dastan of Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan still produces torpedoes for the Russian Navy, among other customers. IIRC, they may have had a part in the development of the Shkval supercavitating torpedo, but don't hold me to that for sure. Their website says nothing about Shkval.


http://www.universalnewswires.com/centralasia/viewstory.aspx?id=11645


http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=11311&print=Y


TNK Dastan's website, what there is of it:
http://dastan-engineering.com/


See also "Opytoviye suda-2"(Experimental vessels-2") also on Aviabase for a series of shots of a couple of these vessels:
http://forums.airbase.ru/2008/04/t61261,5--opytovye-suda-2.html


If you don't speak Russian, Google translate's function in Chrome works fairly well.


Enjoy,


Jim
 
Sea Skimmer said:
Now if you think the Soviets were really worried about the safety or cost of placing two underwater torpedo tubes on a small transport for tests, well, have you noticed the Kirov class, or Chernobyl, or all the subs they built that sank? The Soviet Union was one of the most unsafe and excessive places you ever could dream up...

Interesting comment and one I would suggest based on ignorance. However, this sort of commentary is outside the bounds of the the terms of use for this web board.
 
Kadija_Man said:
Interesting comment and one I would suggest based on ignorance. However, this sort of commentary is outside the bounds of the the terms of use for this web board.


Funny, the terms of use say you should report posts you feel are objectionable to the moderator, not anything about trying to police them yourself. However the terms also only rule out inaccurate statements. I stand by my statement. The refusal to evacuate the town of Muslyumovo on the Techa River alone is a ridiculous abuse when nuclear waste is still bring thrown in the river decades after it was found to be lethally dangerous. We don't even have to touch on military subjects.
 
Folks, please back to the theme "Soviet "Torpedo Trawler"" !
Safety issues with regards to underwater torpedo tubes are a relevant clue here and that
such issues perhaps may not have had the same weight in the former Soviet Union, than in
some other countries, may be relevant, too. But please, if you want to discuss safety or
enviromental pollution and similar themes in general, please, either start a new thread in the Bar,
or if you don't think it's of interest for all members, just discuss it via PM or email.
 

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