Cost of Black Arrow US Scout and the French Diamant.

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Spark

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What was the costs of the US Scout and the French Diamant when compared to Black Arrow?.
Updated UK 60's technology with Commonwealth facilities could have put about 1,000lbs in to GSO.

The Science Museum site states that the US Scout and the French Diamant were cheaper than Black Arrow on what bases?.
 
Spark said:
What was the costs of the US Scout and the French Diamant when compared to Black Arrow?.
Updated UK 60's technology with Commonwealth facilities could have put about 1,000lbs in to GSO.

The Science Museum site states that the US Scout and the French Diamant were cheaper than Black Arrow on what bases?.
Click to expand...

The Scout couldn't put 1,000lb into GTO much less GSO
 
US Scout A was build from Solid rocket already in use by USAF and NASA, what make this launch rocket very cheap
with cost of 18.38 Million U$dollar (2012) for 122 kg in 185 km orbit

Diamant has it's origin of french Military program "Pierres précieuses"
This hardware was based on VE 121 Émeraude, Topaze solid rocket and P064 solid rocket
with cost of 12.17 million U$dollar (2012) for 130 kg in 200 km orbit

Black Arrow was pure civilian program
yes it use the technology of Black Knight, but Not it's hardware !
they R&D new Hardware, what is expensive, as that French or US minimum launcher
with cost of 32 million U$dollar for 135 kg in 220 km orbit
(based on 5 unit build on total program cost of 163.00 million U$dollar (2012) )
 
Hi Michel
Many thanks for your reply, I have since read that with three Black Arrow launches a year it was as cheap as Scout. With the 100,000rpm direct drive pumps the performance was the same yet the engine manufacturing costs were reduced to a fraction of the original engine; no gearbox etc.
So I am still trying to figure out the costs, but cheaper option for the UK taxpayer than Scout.
Since 2000 the UK Government did investigate if it could be restarted but too many of the original men had died and the facilaties had been destroyed. Some would have been the best for the Europe for small payload capacity?
Michel Van said:
US Scout A was build from Solid rocket already in use by USAF and NASA, what make this launch rocket very cheap
with cost of 18.38 Million U$dollar (2012) for 122 kg in 185 km orbit

Diamant has it's origin of french Military program "Pierres précieuses"
This hardware was based on VE 121 Émeraude, Topaze solid rocket and P064 solid rocket
with cost of 12.17 million U$dollar (2012) for 130 kg in 200 km orbit

Black Arrow was pure civilian program
yes it use the technology of Black Knight, but Not it's hardware !
they R&D new Hardware, what is expensive, as that French or US minimum launcher
with cost of 32 million U$dollar for 135 in 220 km orbit
(based on 5 unit build on total program cost of 163.00 million U$dollar (2012) )
Click to expand...
 
if British Politician had keep Black Arrow alive, it would became a cheap launcher

but there more: the Black Diamant project of french CNES
what use a Cora (2 Stage of EUROPA rocket) as first stage and Black Arrow second stage
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2975.msg24013.html#msg24013

payload is similar to Diamant BP4 (what also used Black Arrow Payload fairing, extra made for them !)
 
One of the major issues is number of launches. The British programme of the 70s was looking at about one launch every eighteen months, at which point Black Arrow becomes highly uneconomic.
 
Hi Michel,

The Twin Blue Streak drawing from Charles Martin looked in side view like the French Vulcain, but with only two RZ14’s and a 16 ton payload to 300 n.mile orbit.

Just a thought but four BS strapped together with 32ton payload, a mini Saturn?
Only a thought but I do recall there was an official study, proposal for four micro truncated 10ft dia. Blue Streaks each with a single RZ2.in a wrap around configuration. A bit like a big EE Thunder Bird

The movable stuff from Spadeadam was sold early 70’s to the Indians for their engine programme.

Hi CNH,

Good luck with the Book,

Agreed but it was a politically contrived agenda that limited the UK programme.

Black Arrow developments had to be stopped; other wise people would start asking questions. Little up rated Black Arrow package could have placed about two to three times the ESRO 375lb payload into GSO! This would have interested more than UK customers?

And combined with Blue Streak in an all UK/Commonwealth package five times the 375lb payload to GSO to start with over ten times upgrading with 1963/5 UK technology.


CNH said:
One of the major issues is number of launches. The British programme of the 70s was looking at about one launch every eighteen months, at which point Black Arrow becomes highly uneconomic.
Click to expand...
 
Hi Michel, CNH, Folks,
• Figures are based on Elliott Automation’s Space and Weapons Research Laboratory assessment of their/UK capability for electric propulsion and pulsed-plasma micro-thruster that was financed entirely by company money. They claimed using Black Arrow the performance with electric performance may be increased from 260lb payload in low earth orbit to 210lb payload in synchronous orbit. It was stated that the corresponding figures for the Europa vehicle are 370lb in synchronous orbit to 1,900lb in the same orbit.
• From data released with the permission of the Ministry of Technology by G. T. Healey, Chief Research and Projects Engineer, Rocket Department, Rolls-Royce Ltd the Europa 2 vehicle could actually place 375lb in Synchronous orbit.
• The off the shelve uprated Black Arrow burning 90%HTP/kerosene on Blue Streak could have placed 580lb in synchronous orbit. Pumps, components etc. already tested at the new values
• The corresponding figures for that launch package based on the Elliot claims with electric drive would be 2,939lb in synchronous orbit.
• All the above was built or fully tested in component form at 90%HTP rating by the middle 60’s.
• The standard Black Arrow with a cryogenic upper stage using the joint Bristol Siddeley Rolls-Royce 1963 proposed LH/LOX 15,740lb (vacuum) engine (the latter RZ20 thrust chamber was derived from this early work) on a Blue Streak could have placed 1,065lb in synchronous orbit.
• With the aid of electric drive the corresponding figure given the above assumptions would have been 5,396lb in synchronous orbit.
• Charles Martin told me that the RZ2 engine was tested for flight rating at 165,000lbf before cancellation this coupled with the fact that following tests the LOX tank with out modification could take far greater loads than originally thought possible would allow the use of the Phase1 uprated Black Arrow combined with Phase 2 Cryogenic upperstage would give about 50% increase in payload to synchronous orbit say about 1,500lb.
(I understood that RZ was run at even higher ratings that de Havilland engineers expected 185,000lbs would be the standard with even higher ratings, 225,000lb was quoted as eventually thought possible)
• With the aid of electric drive the corresponding figure would have been about 7,500lb in synchronous orbit. This is twenty times the 375lb payload of Europa 2 at little or no extra cost to the UK exchequer and by the middle sixties and with out several thousand redundancies.
• This broadly agrees with what Dave Fearn told me when he suggested 3ton probe to Neptune or Pluto by 1970 would have been possible with an all UK launcher package. This was with out an uprated Blue Streak.
• No wonder Blue Streak and Black Arrow were cancelled after all the primary objective of Apollo was to get the Democrats re-elected and if the Brits demonstrated a similar capability at fraction of the cost questions would be asked.



The Twin Blue Streak drawing from Charles Martin looked in side view like the French Vulcain, but with only two RZ14’s and a 16 ton payload to 300 n.mile orbit.

Just a thought but four BS strapped together with 32ton payload, a mini Saturn?
Only a thought but I do recall there was an official study, proposal for four micro truncated 10ft dia. Blue Streaks each with a single RZ2.in a wrap around configuration. A bit like a big EE Thunder Bird

The movable stuff from Spadeadam was sold early 70’s to the Indians for their engine programme.

Hi CNH,

Good luck with the Book,

Agreed but it was a politically contrived agenda that limited the UK programme.

Black Arrow developments had to be stopped; other wise people would start asking questions. Little up rated Black Arrow package could have placed about two to three times the ESRO 375lb payload into GSO! This would have interested more than UK customers?

And combined with Blue Streak in an all UK/Commonwealth package five times the 375lb payload to GSO to start with over ten times upgrading with 1963/5 UK technology.


CNH said:
One of the major issues is number of launches. The British programme of the 70s was looking at about one launch every eighteen months, at which point Black Arrow becomes highly uneconomic.
Click to expand...
 
Any guestimates on payload of a Black Arrow core with ? Black Arrow boosters similar the drawing for Blue Streak core with Blue Streak boosters?
 
I have found a Flight international article in their archives dealing with Diamant B costs. With a big solid first stage, cost was 8 million francs, falling to 7 million with the L-17 Améthyste (the equivalent of 550 000 pounds).
By comparison the Scout was found to cost 450 000 pounds.

Now, how much was that in dollars, I have no idea. Any converter would be welcome !
 
Is that's old Francs form 1960s ?
what year is that article ?

I need the info for possibly converting.
 
Archibald said:
1968, so it should be nouveaux france. Good luck with your conversion !
Click to expand...


oh yes after his info http://www.insee.fr/fr/themes/indicateur.asp?id=29&type=1&page=achatfranc.htm
Is the prise of 7 million FRF for one L-17 Améthyste in 1968 are today 80077860 euro. (a Diamant rocket total cost 9351000 euro)
a Scout A $18.38 Million today US dollar, makes 14122603 euro almost double cost!
BLack Arrow is around 24500000 Euro


Oui, les launceur francais Diamant son le plus économique ;D
Yes the french launch vehicle are the cheapest B)
 
A couple of related threads:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4232.0.html
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,27997.0.html

In other news:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2019/01/21/britains-satellite-launching-rocket-go-display-48-years-desert/

BBSwe0e.img

ORIGINAL CAPTION: © PA Undated Skyrora handout photo of the remains of the Black Arrow projectile, the UK's only rocket to successfully launch a satellite into orbit
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/britains-only-satellite-launching-rocket-to-go-on-display-after-48-years-in-the-desert (Mirror of original article with the addition of the above image.)
 

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