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Author Topic: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere  (Read 26804 times)

Offline pavel

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2016, 04:49:13 am »
Projects
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 11:15:27 pm by pavel »

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2016, 09:39:54 am »
Projects of Russian schoolchildren, the development of Venus. Magazine "Young technician" in September 1996.

nice Picture

Sadly, most of ground vehicle are usable for Venusian Surface
but the Cloud Base look a interesting concept
I love Strange Technology

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2016, 01:24:14 am »
There is a interesting Article about Colonization of Venus
seems the Author had a look in this Forum Topic for Information ;D

http://toughsf.blogspot.com/2016/10/how-to-live-on-other-planets-venus.html
I love Strange Technology

Offline Brickmuppet

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A Question Regarding Phosphorus and Venus
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2018, 05:14:33 am »
I recently did a blog post on Project HAVOC and linked to a recent paper that reviews the data from the Soviet Venus probes. Their spectroscopy of the Venusian atmosphere seems to indicate gaseous Phosphorus in increasing concentrations  as one goes lower ending up at equal or greater concentrations than the atmospheric Sulfur below about 52KM altitude.

This seems to indicate a vast reserve of phosphorus. I don't know what reagents would be necessary, but even if it is bound up in phosphine or phosphoric acid,  Venus has lots of solar power. Phosphorus availability is considered a real bottleneck to space settlement and even Terrestrial carrying capacity. Thus, Venusian gas mines floating in the clouds might actually be a sustainable, even lucrative business model. The ability to get water via cracking the acids, phosphorus, abundant light and CO2 mean that floating farms, possibly exporting food on a large scale are a possibility.

However.

It belatedly dawned on me that I've never seen this mentioned anywhere and I'm sure that others with more expertise than me have looked at this.

What am I missing?

The study is attached.
My post is here if anyone wants to point out any errors I might have made. http://brickmuppet.mee.nu/project_havoc
(link fixed)



« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 12:26:38 pm by Brickmuppet »

Offline sferrin

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"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Brickmuppet

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2018, 12:31:26 pm »
 One of my commenters just linked to these two old posts by Jon Goff (Of Selenian Boondocks) on Venusian Industrial Chemistry.

https://selenianboondocks.com/2013/12/venus-isru-gas-phase-processes/
https://selenianboondocks.com/2013/12/venus-isru-isru-development-phases/

I still haven't found any academic papers on the matter.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2018, 05:00:15 am »
Now that's interesting. Well I suppose the main drawback is Venus gravity pull, which is as bad as Earth, since they are the same size and mass. The huge issue would be to get the processed phosphorus out of Venus gravity well.  It is a giant PITA on Earth for any SSTO, and it must be the exact, same giant PITA on Venus.

Going from a Venus floating cloudbase station to Venus orbit or escape is very similar to air-launching a planetary probe on Earth. Balloons or aircraft substract less than 1 km/s of delta-v, but escaping from the planet takes 11 km/s, plus that's logarithm, not decimal, so far worse than "11 times", closer from 15 or 20 times the energy.

It essentially boils down to
7.7 km/s from Earth surface to Earth orbit, minus drag and gravity losses (balloons change nothing compared to surface), so +1.5 km/s, total 9.2 km/s. Then that's Earth orbit, Earth escape is 11.2 km/s, so that's +2 km/s.
Venus has the exact same issue - the delta-v must be extremely similar since, while Venus is a little smaller than Earth, its atmosphere is thick chicken soup so drag losses must be worse than Earth.

As much as I like HAVOC sheer coolness factor, the huge issue would be for the crew capsule to lift-off from the zeppelin and to accelerate to Venus escape velocity - 11 km/s or bust ! A manned capsule is one hell of a heavy thing (20 000 to 50 000 pounds) and the rocket to launch it to 11 km/s is pretty huge, and the whole thing hangs on a Zeppelin ? Really ?
Admittedly, airships have far more lift on Venus than Earth because the atmosphere is extremely dense. But if one compare with Stratolaunch, then you need some kind of "Stratolaunch Zeppelin" to launch a 250 mt ton rocket, Delta II size, with a 12 000 pound capsule (and 12 000 pounds is a Soyuz-size capsule, very very small). And then, not even sure it can even reach Venus orbit, minus escape velocity.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 05:14:13 am by Archibald »
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