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Author Topic: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer  (Read 196413 times)

Offline Reaper

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Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2013, 06:18:31 am »
It's worthy of note that the Super Hornet has not won a single competition.   

Autralia!

Offline F-14D

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Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2013, 06:44:23 am »
It's worthy of note that the Super Hornet has not won a single competition.   

Autralia!

Actually, Australia was an export but not a competition in the classic sense.  Australia wanted to retire its F-111s due to their airframe life and the perceived cost of keeping them in service.  The replacement was to be the F-35, but it was decided an interim aircraft would be needed until what they really wanted was available.  Since they already operated Classic Hornets, they  studied whether they could leverage their Hornet experience to use the Super Bug in this role, and whether it would be cost effective as a stopgap.  Their analysis decided "yes" to both questions, so they ordered directly.

AFAIK, the SH was not pitted against Gripen, Rafale, Typhoon, et al in an actual competition.  So far, it has never won in a full competition when pitted against other aircraft . 

Offline F-14D

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Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2013, 12:35:11 pm »


Great news for SAAB though. Maybe Boeing will fund the two seat version they couldn't afford to develop themselves.

Ya know, thinking on it this might not help SAAB in this area that much.  Aerodynamically, the two seater wouldn't be that hard, after all, the NG Demonstrator is a two seater.   Where SAAB really ran into money issues was the desire both for Sweden and exports that the F version have a decoupled rear cockpit/crew station ala Navy F-4s, the F-14, later Super Hornets, etc.  With the new displays, revised architecture  and  integration, that got to be more expensive than they could swallow, given the expected market. 

For the T-X mission, that isn't necessary and in fact could be a detriment, dual controls  certainly being desired.  At least for AF training missions, you'd want the aft cockpit to replicate the student on up front as much  as possible, so I can't see Boeing kicking in money for a capability that won't help them in the competition.

OTOH, maybe a big AF order would raise the JAS 39's profile enough and generate sufficient cash flow that the new rear cockpit could be affordable for Sweden and other potential customers. 

Offline GTX

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Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2013, 12:16:52 pm »
Quote
Boeing and Saab Sign Joint Development Agreement on T-X Family of Systems Training Competition
(Source; Boeing Co. and Saab AB; issued Dec. 6, 2013)
 
ST. LOUIS/STOCKHOLM --- Boeing and Saab AB have signed a Joint Development Agreement (JDA) to jointly develop and build a new advanced, cost-efficient T-X Family of Systems training solution for the upcoming competition to replace the U.S. Air Force's aging T-38 aircrew training system. The JDA, with Boeing as the prime contractor and Saab AB as primary partner, covers areas including design, development, production, support, sales and marketing.

"Teaming with Saab will bring together our companies' formidable technical expertise, global presence, and willingness to present an adaptable and affordable advanced pilot training solution," said Boeing Military Aircraft President Chris Chadwick. "Boeing and Saab form the foundation for what will be the strongest, most cost-effective industry team. Our comprehensive Family of Systems approach provides a new, purpose-built T-X aircraft supported by innovative training and logistics support to offer total-life-cycle cost benefits to the U.S. Air Force and taxpayers."

"Saab is proud to join with Boeing for the T-X competition, thus creating a highly capable team to deliver unprecedented value to the customer. We are sure this is the best way to supply affordable first-class trainers to the U.S. Air Force," said Saab President and CEO Håkan Buskhe. "We will invest in development of this completely new aircraft design over the coming years. This cooperation with Boeing is part of our strategic development and we confirm our long-term financial targets."

Boeing and Saab look forward to the upcoming acquisition process, which will lead to the customer awarding the contract. The U.S. Air Force T-X program will include aircraft and training that will prepare warfighters for the next 40 years. The Air Force plans to replace the T-38 with a new Advanced Pilot Training Family of Systems and about 350 aircraft, plus associated ground-based training systems and logistics and sustainment support.

The trainer solution from Boeing and Saab with other potential team members will be a completely new designed aircraft, built to meet the needs of the Air Force.


Swedish defense and security company Saab serves the global market with world-leading products, services and solutions ranging from military defense to civil security. Saab has operations and employees on all continents and constantly develops, adopts and improves new technology to meet customers’ changing needs. Saab is a $4 billion business with approximately 14,000 employees in about 35 countries.

A unit of The Boeing Company, Boeing Defense, Space & Security is one of the world's largest defense, space and security businesses specializing in innovative and capabilities-driven customer solutions, and the world’s largest and most versatile manufacturer of military aircraft. Headquartered in St. Louis, Boeing Defense, Space & Security is a $33 billion business with 58,000 employees worldwide.

-ends-

Offline TomS

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Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2013, 12:35:55 pm »
Quote
The trainer solution from Boeing and Saab with other potential team members
will be a completely new designed aircraft, built to meet the needs of the Air
Force.
That's unexpected.  Back in September, they were supposedly planning to offer Gripen.  Do we think "new designed aircraft" is a matter of sematics, essentially an Americanized Gripen, the way the M-346 is a "new aircraft" rather than a Europeanized Yak-130?   Or did Boeing go back to their earlier clean sheet design with assistance from SAAB?

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2013, 12:43:50 pm »
That's unexpected.  Back in September, they were supposedly planning to offer Gripen.  Do we think "new designed aircraft" is a matter of sematics, essentially an Americanized Gripen, the way the M-346 is a "new aircraft" rather than a Europeanized Yak-130?   Or did Boeing go back to their earlier clean sheet design with assistance from SAAB?

Maybe even something from the SAAB FS2020 stable, perhaps?
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Offline Skyblazer

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Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2013, 02:39:29 pm »
Would it not be appropriate for Textron to step in with a version of their current E530 Scorpion?

Offline TomS

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Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2013, 05:29:52 pm »
I don't think Scorpion has the acrobatic high-g performance required for T-X.

Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2013, 06:49:52 pm »
AFAIK, the SH was not pitted against Gripen, Rafale, Typhoon, et al in an actual competition.  So far, it has never won in a full competition when pitted against other aircraft .

Late response as I've just seen this. This isn't quite true. The RAAF's assessment of the bridging aircraft capability (which was the program the Super Hornet was ordered under) included a wide range of aircraft. Including those usual suspects. This 'competition' however was carried out in house based on the tender quality information the RAAF had gathered for the AIR 6000 project updated by the DSTO 'watching brief'. This assessed cost, capability, etc for the role and found the Super Hornet superior as both a combat platform and (importantly) a bridging platform. The bridging capability being twofold in retaining air combat competancy (ie leveraging the Hornet connection) and in bridging the technology gap to the F-35. In the later assessment the Block II Super Hornet was well above other options because it had the AESA and groovy fifth gen type avionics.
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Online Triton

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Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2013, 08:43:18 pm »
Model of BAE Systems/Northrop Grumman Hawk AJTS (Advanced Jet Training System) on display at the AFA Air Warfare Symposium 2013 in Orlando, Florida.

Source:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=494449453925266&set=pb.250121178358096.-2207520000.1386390915.&type=3&theater
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 08:46:10 pm by Triton »

Online Triton

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Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2013, 10:07:45 pm »

Online Triton

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Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2013, 10:13:35 pm »

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2013, 10:45:22 am »
Model of BAE Systems/Northrop Grumman Hawk AJTS

I find it odd, given the history of McDonnell Douglas with the U.S. production of the T-45 Goshawk, that this new Hawk derivative should be proposed by Northrop Grumman and not Boeing...

Online Triton

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Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2013, 12:54:33 pm »
I find it odd, given the history of McDonnell Douglas with the U.S. production of the T-45 Goshawk, that this new Hawk derivative should be proposed by Northrop Grumman and not Boeing...

Maybe, but we don't know the terms of the license agreement between McDonnell Douglas, now Boeing, and BAE Systems.

Online Triton

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Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2013, 12:56:33 pm »