Register here

Author Topic: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer  (Read 196564 times)

Offline flateric

  • Deputy Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 8659
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Grey Havoc

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 8108
  • The path not taken.
Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2012, 03:11:01 am »
Boeing Leans Toward New-Build Design For U.S. Air Force T-X (Ares blog)

Quote
After a long flirtation with the concept of a partnership to offer a foreign fast-jet trainer to the U.S. Air Force as a T-38C replacement, Boeing will forgo an off-the-shelf bid in favor of a new-build design or opt not to bid at all.

“We have looked at a lot of different options. But our belief is the aerospace industry and the defense industry need somebody who can come in and provide disruptive innovation,” says Chris Chadwick, president of Boeing Military Aircraft, in an interview with Aviation Week. “By year end, we will have agreed internally how we are going to move forward, and how and if we team for a clean-sheet design.”

Quote
Chadwick, however, says the company feels it can build a new aircraft without an escalated development price by rejecting the urge to infuse new and unproven technologies into the design.

As the Pentagon continues to feel financial pressure from social program demands on the U.S. budget, military officials should embrace new ways to acquire hardware that allow for reduced cost and time to field, Chadwick says.

In an effort to be more nimble, the company is aggressively pursuing ways to offer systems to the Pentagon at a reduced cost by taking on some of the development risk. A forthcoming T-X design, if it materializes, is one example.
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

Offline flateric

  • Deputy Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 8659
Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2012, 11:50:45 pm »
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 01:50:07 pm by PaulMM (Overscan) »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

  • Deputy Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 8659
Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2012, 11:53:58 pm »
Boeing Leans Toward New-Build Design For U.S. Air Force T-X
By Amy Butler abutler@aviationweek.com
Source: AWIN First


July 11, 2012

After a long flirtation with the concept of a partnership to offer a foreign fast-jet trainer to the U.S. Air Force as a T-38C replacement, Boeing will forgo an off-the-shelf bid in favor of a new-build design or opt not to bid at all.

“We have looked at a lot of different options. But our belief is the aerospace industry and the defense industry need somebody who can come in and provide disruptive innovation,” says Chris Chadwick, president of Boeing Military Aircraft, in an interview with Aviation Week. “By year end, we will have agreed internally how we are going to move forward, and how and if we team for a clean-sheet design.”

The field of T-X competitors includes BAE with a Hawk aircraft, Alenia Aermacchi (which is shopping for a U.S. partner) with the M346 (a derivative of the Russian Yak-130) and the Lockheed Martin/Korea Aerospace Industries T-50. The Air Force plans to buy 350 of the trainers as well as ground-based training systems and aids; a competition is unlikely to start before 2013.

Saab is said to also be considering a Gripen-based trainer offering. Despite speculation to the contrary, the Yak-130 will not be in the running, says Konstantin Popovich, head of Russia’s Yakovlev engineering center. “Since we have good relations with Aermacchi [which builds a derivative of the aircraft in Italy] . . . we are trying to be realistic,” Popovich told reporters during a briefing here July 11. “We understand that is the Western option of the aircraft” for the Air Force’s T-X competition.

Air Force officials have indicated they are strongly leaning toward an off-the-shelf purchase owing to a desire to reduce the cost of development.

Chadwick, however, says the company feels it can build a new aircraft without an escalated development price by rejecting the urge to infuse new and unproven technologies into the design.

As the Pentagon continues to feel financial pressure from social program demands on the U.S. budget, military officials should embrace new ways to acquire hardware that allow for reduced cost and time to field, Chadwick says.

In an effort to be more nimble, the company is aggressively pursuing ways to offer systems to the Pentagon at a reduced cost by taking on some of the development risk. A forthcoming T-X design, if it materializes, is one example.

Another is a proposal by Boeing to expand on the work on the Navy’s 737-based P-8 maritime surveillance aircraft with a 737-based offering overland and air-surveillance capabilities now provided by Air Force 707s. They say the Air Force can benefit from the nonrecurring engineering already paid for by the Navy and spend precious dollars on tailoring the mission systems for its requirements.

Copyright © 2012, Aviation Week, a division of The McGraw-Hill Companies.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_07_11_2012_p0-475701.xml#
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 12:03:00 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

  • Deputy Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 8659
Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2012, 12:04:05 am »
Boeing's T-X four-post tail configuration shown in presentation at Dubai Air Show in September 2011
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Pioneer

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1590
  • Seek out and close with the enemy
Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2012, 01:57:35 am »

A NEW ‘FREEDOM’ FIGHTER
BUILDING ON THE T-X COMPETITION
Peter Klicker


http://irtheoryandpractice.wm.edu/projects/PIPS/PIPS.2011-2012/ANewFreedomFighter.Klicker.Peter.pdf

Interesting!! Thanks for sharing Flateric

Regards
Pioneer
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M

Offline SlowMan

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • I really should change my personal text
Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2012, 12:16:22 pm »
Boeing's T-X four-post tail configuration shown in presentation at Dubai Air Show in September 2011

Well, the USAF has no money for a new airframe and will buy an existing one off the shelf.

What's really interesting is Saab's stripped-down Gripen T-X offering.

Offline SlowMan

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • I really should change my personal text
Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2012, 06:33:50 pm »
T-X KPP document released.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-releases-draft-t-x-kpps-377693/

Quote
USAF releases draft T-X KPPs

The KPPs include a requirement for the prospective aircraft to have an operational availability of no less than 64.7%. It must also be able to sustain 6.5Gs for no less than 15 seconds using no more than 15 degrees nose low attitude at 80% fuel weight between an altitude of 10,000 and 20,000 feet.

Key system attributes (KSA) include the ability to attain a minimum of 7.5G and an onset rate of 3Gs per second. The USAF wants the T-X to be able to attain at least a 12° per second instantaneous turn rate with a sustained turn rate of 9°. It should also be able to conduct angle-of-attack maneuvering at greater than the 20° angle-of-attack. It also needs to have enough fuel for visual range dogfighting and it needs to be able to make dry contacts with an aerial refueling tanker. Other KSAs for the T-X aircraft include having simulated radars, data-links, radar-warning receivers, situational awareness displays and a full glass-cockpit similar to the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and F-35. The T-X must also have the ability to simulate a wide range of air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons including the AIM-120 and Small Diameter Bomb onboard.

https://www.fbo.gov/utils/view?id=517f912be4db8a348e0e88a4803b5c4f

Offline Grey Havoc

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 8108
  • The path not taken.
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

Offline George Allegrezza

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 786
Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2013, 07:40:32 am »
Boeing and Saab to propose the JAS 39E/F version of the Gripen for the T-X competition:


http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_09_11_2013_p0-615489.xml


Interestingly, the article also discusses using the Gripen for DACT and air sovereignty missions.

Offline kcran567

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 660
Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 03:14:50 pm »
Its dissapointing that boeing is settling for a warmed over Gripen.  :-\  What happened to their clean sheet design? Yet another sign of a fading superpower. America is choosing between a Swedish and a Korean design? Was really hoping for an new generation, innovative, stealthy, agile F-5/Talon class of aircraft that might have been more affordable than the F-35.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 03:21:01 pm by kcran567 »

Offline TaiidanTomcat

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 863
  • "A wretched hive of scum and villainy."
Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2013, 03:17:49 pm »
Yet another sign of a fading superpower. America is choosing between a Swedish and a Korean design?

 ::)

child please.

Great news for SAAB though. Maybe Boeing will fund the two seat version they couldn't afford to develop themselves.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 03:29:37 pm by TaiidanTomcat »
All F-35 threads will be locked, and supporters publicly outed or banned.

Offline kcran567

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 660
Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2013, 03:37:11 pm »
Yet another sign of a fading superpower. America is choosing between a Swedish and a Korean design?

 ::)

child please.

Great news for SAAB though. Maybe Boeing will fund the two seat version they couldn't afford to develop themselves.
I'm disappointed. Would like to see maybe a joint Boeing/Saab clean sheet design however. We should be building an all new 5th/6th generation trainer to train pilots for 5th and 6th generation aircraft. Not happy about warmed over Swedish leftovers.

Offline SOC

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1169
  • APA Contributor
    • IMINT & Analysis
Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2013, 03:46:12 pm »
Boeing and Saab to propose the JAS 39E/F version of the Gripen for the T-X competition:

Saab apparently does not agree on the second page of the article, saying it might not make a good trainer.
 

Interestingly, the article also discusses using the Gripen for DACT and air sovereignty missions.

Now, as an ANG/AFR F-16 replacement, this could actually be a good idea.  Chasing Cessnas or airliners around doesn't require an LO aircraft (and probably not even an F-16), and neither does performing peacetime intercepts of BLACKJACKs for that matter.  Is it better to go this route over a clean sheet trainer design "upgunned" with an AI radar, gun, and a few AMRAAMs?  Maybe, especially if there is little to no development cost associated with the buy. 
 
Otherwise, for a supersonic trainer, it's pretty much the T-50 or a new airplane. 

Online Sundog

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2535
Re: T-X - A Future USAF Trainer
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2013, 03:54:20 pm »
I'm disappointed. Would like to see maybe a joint Boeing/Saab clean sheet design however. We should be building an all new 5th/6th generation trainer to train pilots for 5th and 6th generation aircraft. Not happy about warmed over Swedish leftovers.

You don't understand the point of a training aircraft. It doesn't need stealth or to carry weapons internally or to possess the ability to supercruise; those are all hall marks of the "gens" you're describing. What it needs is to operate like those aircraft, with advanced systems, without costing near as much as the front line systems. Also, they need to make sure the funds to develop it aren't extensive. A clean sheet design may be cheap to operate, but it won't be as cheap to develop and buy as something that already exists in some form.

I know L-M will probably go with the T-50, but I think they would be much better off going with a de-rated F-16. Just put the minimum systems in it to make it a training aircraft. They already have the production line set up here and they already have the infrastructure to support both the airframe and the engine in place. Maybe even go with a de-rated engine, which would also greatly extend the life of the engine.

Personally speaking, I think Boeing using the Gripen as a basis for it's submission is a a brilliant move, if they don't make it too much airplane for the requirement.